Guys and Gals
i am looking at trying to set up a Blood tracking trial/test, soley for dogs trained for deer work here in the UK
at the moment i am only doing some research into this as to see how much work and cost it would take to set up
as we don't hav anything like this as such in the UK that i can find info or help on or infact no official judges that i know of or in contact with
just wondered how you boys across the water get involed in setting up such an event and how you assertain who is eligable to actually judge such an event which can give merits to the winners of official status
any help or contacts would be appreciated to help try and make this happen, especialy if they reside in the UK as that may make it a little easier if and when the idea gets off the ground
I hav also posted this in the dog section , just felt the more coverage i give it the more chance i may hav of getting it made official
Kind Regards
Richard

Rich

I chat quite frequently with a stalker on another site - lives up in your part of the world I believe, I will pm contact details.

Been involved in 'Dogs for Deer' courses etc for quite some time and would definately be able to give you a heap of useful collaboration.

Trailing has just has just taken my attention after a Client lost a deer in a field of thigh-high grass.

With no easily identifiable point of impact, no blood to follow and a beast that had vanished at full run over a ridgeline - I made the decision to yell for the hounds, rather than stamp around the scene and beat down a large chunk of silage.

A good friend was on the scene in ten minutes with a pair of Hungarian Vizlas and they set to work.



Because of the large number of Roe that had been using the field, it was initially difficult to locate any form of trail. Casting around on the downwind side of the field suddenly had the younger dog, head up and snuffing the breeze.

By this time, I was off to a flank, watching with the stalker. A sense of relief came over me,& I told him to look at the dog's body language. That tail was now pumping furiously, head down towards the grass, head up and then looking back towards the handler, tail now almost dislocating the speed with which it was rotating!



Yep, she had found the Buck - only 30 yds from where we lost sight of it, but could have been 30 miles for all we knew. The pride on the dog's face was mirrored by the handler and stalker.



A happy ending and a rather emotional morning for a Client who now got to carry his first deer back to the Landrover - and a full English breakfast!

Sorry to hijack your thread - but having access to a dog is vital when out stalking deer. You never know when it may be needed.

I am fully in favour of anything that promotes dogs for deer and this is why.

Rgds Ian

An excellent idea, hope you get it off the ground, Just hope it doesn't evolve into a situation where stalkers without a dog of their own are excluded from some or all stalking leases, I myself am hoping to own & work a Teckel someday, (still got lots of pet hounds)

quote:

An excellent idea, hope you get it off the ground, Just hope it doesn't evolve into a situation where stalkers without a dog of their own are excluded from some or all stalking leases, I myself am hoping to own & work a Teckel someday, (still got lots of pet hounds)

This is exactely what happened in Norway.
Stalking big game (roe and up) you have to have an approved dog, or a formal contract with a dog handler who have such a dog ( and it ain´t for free eighter).
If not, no stalking!

As Ian clearly state, a dog is definitely an asset in sertain situations.

Cheers Ian would appreciate that contact if poss
don't mind you hijacking it with a few pics of dogs at work anything to try and help promote dogs for deer work is a bonus in my book
Steve
i agree with what you are thinking as one day this might just happen with all the etra regulations thgat are bombarding stalkers and stalking at the moment
if this were to happen , hopefully just having a contact number for a person with a suitably trained dog will do the trick when applying for such leases or syndicates with this requirement for the need of dog will suffice

I recommend you to obtain and read John Jeanneneny's excellent book on blood tracking.

He has a chapter on field trials, too.

Born to track.

A good friend of mine runs a Lab that some members of AR have met.

Not only is she invaluable in finding deer that shot at last light have made the cover, but she also scents deer that are as yet unseen. He's learnt to use the dogs body language as a signal for deer in the vicinity before they are visible. Often it is just a case of stopping and waiting for the beast to show itself.

He swears that the cull is increased by a good few animals that he would not have been able to get were it not for the dogs warning.

Dogs for deer are the way forward and even the loony Fern has earnt the odd bit of liver in her time.

FB

I never understood how anyone could not use a dog. Occasionaly I have to leave mine behind which I really hate. IMHO it's unethical. Anything to promote it's use is good.

I haven't a clue what the form on such tests are but I think there is a big difference in a dog that can accompany the stalker and one that is solely for tracking.

Accompanying dogs should be subject to steadiness and obedience tests IMHO. As an example staying put on command when the stalker crawls off, steadiness to a rabbit (easy enough to simulate) and steadiness to shot. IMHO a failure on these should result in elimination.

When it comes to trailing I think a dog should be able to be called off the trail. Having just heard my lab go across an A road and back again without being able to get to her I think that is of vital importance.

I don't think that the dog alone should be judged but the handler as well. A good dog will overcome the handlers ineptitude - I know mine has to most of the time!

If possible steadiness to stock such as sheep should also be tested as well as a willingness to get into unpleasant cover at the end.

Good luck.

Ian,

Trialing is a funny old world. If your friend's dogs had run like that in a trial over in Europe, they would have scored very poorly, as to them, the ability of the dog to follow a difficult ground scent is paramount. they almost view airscenting as cheating from what I've read...

Personally (and not knowing any better), I can't see why a dog should be penalised for air scenting as at the end of the day finding the carcass is the important thing...

The reason I mention this is that it highlights some of the pitfalls in setting up these sort of trials.

With Richards proposal, a descision needs to be made at the beginning as for the purpose of the trial...Is going to reflect the real world requirements and situations a British stalker may face,?? Or is it going to be more a more "stylized" competion with the dogs technique and adherance to a set "ideal" ect being far more important than the end result??

The Europeans may well have very sound reasons to prize dogs that follow a difficult ground scent and why that aspect is pushed so much in their Trails, and if so, I would be interested in hearing a bit more about it from some of our Europeans firends...

Regards,

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
I haven't a clue what the form on such tests are but I think there is a big difference in a dog that can accompany the stalker and one that is solely for tracking.

I think thats a valid distinction, plus when it comes to tracking maybe that should be broken up into dogs that a free ranging and those that are worked on a line...

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
A good friend of mine runs a Lab that some members of AR have met.

Not only is she invaluable in finding deer that shot at last light have made the cover, but she also scents deer that are as yet unseen. He's learnt to use the dogs body language as a signal for deer in the vicinity before they are visible. Often it is just a case of stopping and waiting for the beast to show itself.

He swears that the cull is increased by a good few animals that he would not have been able to get were it not for the dogs warning.

Dogs for deer are the way forward and even the loony Fern has earnt the odd bit of liver in her time.

FB

Yes a truly awesome dog, one that I benchmark mine against.

Pete,

It's difficult to explain why a ground scenting dog is better for such things rather than a dog that relys on air scent.

I can tell the difference when I'm working a dog but struggle to explain it. I suppose it is down to how "solid" the dog is in it's commitment to getting the job done. I tend to find an air scenting dog less specific and they also tend to end up looking for the "retrieve" and lose their comitment to the line.

A ground scenting dog will work a line and stay on the actual line of the beast rather than try and air scent the fall. Such dogs are able to decipher the line of individual animals within a herd, (ie the hit one amongst its mate) and seperate it from the rest. The result on easy retrieves is sometimes faster for an air scenter but I think in the instances that you really need a tracking job done the best dog is one that is not averse to having his nose glued to the ground.

Incidentally in my experience I've known ground scenters who can also use air scent but I have rarely seen an air scenting dog thatis keen to put his nose to the ground in a commited fashion.

Anyway I'm rambling and probably not making a lot of sense!!

Rds,
FB

Guys
before we fragment off or dive of into directions that lead us from the original post
my aim is to try and set up some sort of trial or working test for blood tacking dogs for us in the UK for finding mainly deer
yes i know we hav a few boar about but i feel a different dog or tracking ability might be more in favour
so let's get back to it
i am in the opinion each to their own but on a leash does hav it's own merits which i feel will suit most terrain and situations here in england and possibly wales
where as having a dog working of the leash with the right training and methods will often suit the dense foresty or open mountain side in scotland and possibly wales
horses for courses here i'm afraid but the same goal to be acheived
but what i would like is to set up a simple test for Blood tracking dogs for deer work
and for those competeting to get some sort of cert of merit for their efforts if they were to meet a standard that was exceptable for others to call on if they needed to incase they had lost a woundeed or dead deer
so in that theory i would need it to be recognised in some way
as why i was after a contact/s in the UK for such judges or help on how to get a judge affiliated to judge such events in the UK
i hope you might see my problem now
as for what dogs or breeding or even how they worked is actually the latter part of the problem at the moment
these can be looked at at a time if and when this happens and as to the ability of both dog and handler
as this what really counts
Richard

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:



Incidentally in my experience I've known ground scenters who can also use air scent but I have rarely seen an air scenting dog thatis keen to put his nose to the ground in a commited fashion.

i agree
it is normally down to the training i found
as an air scenting dog ha normally always put on a warm scent in training so has no need to search for cold scent
but a cold scenting dog has always been trained on cold scents upto and over 24 hours old
so when it is hit with a fresh scent it will air scent as that is where the scent will be atleast a couple of foot higher off the floor
nowt wrong with this aslong as you don't expect the dog to followed a blood trail the next day on a leash
this is where you will let the dog work freely and bank on it catching the scent of the carcass as that will still be ommitting a great scent to follow scent several days later where as the blood will not

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:
I recommend you to obtain and read John Jeanneneny's excellent book on blood tracking.

He has a chapter on field trials, too.

Born to track.

Hi DUK
i do actually hav a copy and often revert back to it from time to tiome and also hav been intouch with John via email about such things and what a realy nice fella he is too
unfortunately he is to far away to help but has given me a little of his wisdom and guidance on this
so now it's down to me to try and start the ball rolling if i want this to happen
but thank you anyway

Hello Richard,

I have friends in Spain who are in a similar situation. Blood tracking there was close to forgotten for mmany years. No blood? I sure missed... Now some idealists are trying to promote searching after wounded deer, especially on their big driven hunts.

They used John's book as well, but also got the French chien du sang federation to lend them a hand, a very experienced dog handler attended several of their field trials and seminars.

Now, they even got the State Forest Administration interested which sends their guides and dogs to their trainings. Things are moving.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pete E:
Ian,

Trialing is a funny old world. If your friend's dogs had run like that in a trial over in Europe, they would have scored very poorly, as to them, the ability of the dog to follow a difficult ground scent is paramount. they almost view airscenting as cheating from what I've read...

Personally (and not knowing any better), I can't see why a dog should be penalised for air scenting as at the end of the day finding the carcass is the important thing...

The reason I mention this is that it highlights some of the pitfalls in setting up these sort of trials.

Pete,

the point of this is to force the dog to track only "wounded" game otherwise the dog will air scent any game whether it is wounded or not and give chase to any deer. For example, a wounded deer get back together with a herd, do you want your dog air-scent the herd and chase it out of sight or just track the wounded deer that it's been tracking to begin with? This methods saves time and hassle.

In short:

We judge dogs on 1km long, minimum 12 hours old trails. Each trail has two 90deg. turns. Trails are made either by special shoes with deer hoofs attached or a hoof attached to the walking stick + blood (1/4 liter) that is dispensed over whole distance by squirting from small bottle. Game is put on the end of each trail.

Dog must follow the trail that is left over night (so live game can cross it) and is allowed 2 corrections by judge – with the third it is disqualified. 50-100m before the end of the trail the dog is left loose and must find the game at the end by itself and then:

1. come back to the guide and show him/her the game
2. stay by the game and bark for 10 minutes

If dog doesn’t pass this last requirement it is disqualified as well, since many times dog must catch live game at the end and it is no use if it doesn’t show it to the guide.

For judging here we have special judges that are qualified to judge the trailing dogs and are licensed by FCI. Described above apply more or less to CE (Germany, Austria, Italy, Hungary, Slovenia…)

Regardless of the test these are the things I have learnt stalking with my dog.

Obedience is 75% of stalking with an accompanying dog.

An accompanying dog is going to be more obedient if it doesn't kill deer

If you do a lot of stalking, if the weather is hot or if you live a long way from your stalking then collecting your unaccompanied dog is a royal pain in the arse.

Most UK stalking is not geared to trailing long distances.

Unless you have an exceptional dog then you should accept that deer mobile and alive after a 20minute wait (you did wait didn't you!) are unlikely to be recovered.

There is a temptation to view a dog as trained and not give it refresher training.... if this is the case it's likely to go downhill unless you are stalking a lot.

Stalking on arable fields where the dog tends to go behind reduces the efficiency of the dog in woodland.

Finding paths in woodland where a dog can go beside you is hard. They tend to end up behind which means their indication gets missed. Now we have moderators it's worth considering having the dog a pace in front.

Following up mobile deer with a dog that doesn't kill requires a leash for fear of pushing the deer miles.

Using a dog to 'check if the deer was hit' is great but tends to spoil it as you are in effect asking it to trail a non existant blood trail. A more effective way of getting a dog to trail unwounded deer or airscent has yet to be invented.

Follow up shots on mobile tracked deer are bloody dangerous - little time to consider safety, obstructions, dog etc etc. If you may have to do this do ensure that you have practiced and that you're not carrying a rifle that has for example an 8x56 on it.

It's rare that a dog works as per the continental ideal. They tend to work to their own method. Mine requires very gentle putting onto the line for fear of her getting into her charging round air scenting mode. If she does do that then after a time she will get into proper mode and work well. At that point she is always right however stupid it seems. The number of times I've taken her off scents in the first five minutes to find a deer an hour later on that track beggars belief.

Very occasionaly dogs fail to find extremely easy deer (to us) just because the dog doesn't find it doesn't mean you can be absolutely sure it isn't dead.

Dogs stalking at foot are viewed by deer as interesting and tend to make them stay put longer.

but we hav also need to think about the facts that a stalking dog will be slightly different to a trailing dog
whilst accompanied stalking the dog is more commonly off a leash and walks to heel
being slightly behind does hav a dissadvantage when trying to work out the dogs reactions but by much, as you can still hear and tell if they hav picked up fresh hoof scent or winded one, with them walking slightly in front and you spot the deer, then when you put your sticks up this often catches your dog causing a reaction that the deer can often see or your dog jumps causing you to make a sudden movements wondering what the eck the dog is doing or wondering if you hurt your dog with the sticks
i hav actually trained my dog to move if and when i set the sticks up so she does not behave irratic or i don't need to concentrate on her as much when i hav a possible shot

but by having a dog soley for tracking can hav it's merits
with it being more intentive to follow a distinctive track and not digress on to the freshest scent or if you hav to pull it of a track it will still hav it in it to follow on that same track , as if you are able to call a dog of a track, sometimes that dog will not want to resume the track you hav pulled it off
common sense really if you think about it
Most dogs will track or airscent, but it is dog handler combo working as one that will be all the difference on a difficult trail

Though stalking is not a common practice where I hunt, I am interested in training my dog to function in this way too. She is already trained to heal and does pretty well at sitting on shot, but I will have to work on her steadiness. She is young and has the attention span of a nat, and I hope that age and maturity will help her.

This is just a general dog question, but are the "tracking dogs" in Europe expected to be vocal when on a trail?

My Lab doesn't bark when on a trail, and if I work her off leash, I have to keep up with her to know where she is or if she has found something.

Jeff
from my understanding on it all
it is in the training and what traing schedule you want to adopt
if you want a vocal dog then you need to train it to be vocal
some dogs it is already a factor others it need to be implanted into
if you want to work your dog on a leash then there is no normally need to train your dog to sound off on a find, as you will be there at hand anyway
as you don't neeed to locate your dog by voice just follow the leash
but once slipped on a runner then having a dog that brings a deer to to baye does hav it's advantage's
again quarry species and terrain will be the determing factors for most
these are a few clips of my young lab Sika on a Fallow that was heart shot but ran like merry hell with little or no sign of blood or pins at the strike zone
first clip Sika is off a lead, tracking a warm scent with a swirling breaze

as we drew nearer to the dead deer , she got a bit excited , so on went the tracking lead for a little control
as for some reason she had one on her , but she is still a little young


and one for the album

I would seriously reccomend you contact any of the german bloodhound clubs, and ask for their suggestions, as here in germany we take our blood tracking very seriously. If you can, contact the hannoverian bloodhound club or the Bavarian mountain bloodhound club. I am sure they would love to assist you.

Most hunting clubs have standards that they use when testing dogs for the Gebrauchspruefungs (sp) test, or general use test, but they are all similar in nature.

Good luck.


Murkan Mike

The dogs have to be diciplined in sit, down and stay, for very obvious reasons, and there is a regiment that is very useful, that each handler has to learn as well. I know, I am in the middle of getting my Austrian Brandl Brache trained at the moment.

I am very surprised that as long as hunting has been a tradition in the UK, that you'se guys haven't established standards and testing requirements.

A good bloodhound isn't really a bloodhound, he is a hoofprint smeller, and can detect the difference in a wounded animals hoofprint based upon the hormones and scents a stressed and wounded animal emits as it is running.

Any long nosed dog has the ability to track blood, and good trackers are trained to keep their noses down, not up. Even though the results are the same, the dog that up-scented a wounded boar, may have not stopped to point out the little pieces of gut, bone or blood that tells you whether you are about to walk up on a meat wounded pissed off boar, or a dead as a doornail boar. I like to know that at 2 am.

I'd bet that if you were to write any of these clubs a letter, they would be happy to share their standards with you.

Training the dogs to meet these standards is another thing though, and takes a loooooooooooong time. I know, I;m in the middle of it now.