Gentlemen,

I wonder if you could help me?

I was looking at the ballistics publihed for the 8x64 round(Swan et al, 2002; LaGrange,1990 & Olson,2002). There seems to be quite a difference between this data and published ammunition manufacturers and reloading data by 'component' makers.

The first two references have a published mv with a 198 grain (12.8 gram) bullet of 2830 fps (863 mps). Olson has 196 grain= 2676fps; 198 grain= 2683 fps; 227 grain=2578 fps.

Brenneke reloading information etc on their site, www.brenneke.de, shows mv with a 220 grain bullets of 780 and 792mps (2598 & 2559 fps). Sellier & Bellot loaded 8x64 ammunition runs at 2649 fps with a 196 grain bullet.

Are there errors in the Swan et al and LaGrange books, mixing up 8x64 and 8x68 data? If this is the case, then the 8x68 data looks low.

Or is it because there are many older rifles out there, rechambered Word War One rifles done in the 1920s and older inter war manufactured rifles. Therefore the manufacturers have loaded down the 8x64 for safety, just like the .35 Whelan in the USA?

Or is there a mix up between standard 8x64 data and the "Bombe" hot / souped loading of this round, comparable with the 8x60 S and its variants?

The data, taking into account that the 8mm S is actually .323 diameter, shows the 8x64 is comparable / close to the .338-06: bullet weights, velocities and energy.

Thanks.

One of the guys here with experience of the 8x64S is "Monestary Forester". He loads, VV N550 under 196-200 grs bullets at quite amazing velocities - presumably DEVA verified for pressure. I don't know if he will be willing to share his loads with you? But I can tell you his loads match the fastest loads you listed in your post.

The RWS book lists a max velocity of 830 m/s (2723 fps) for 196-198 grs bullets with RWS R904 as the powder with the highest velocity (max 61.5 - 63.0 grs depending on the exact bullet). As you may be aware, the RWS powders are manufactured by Bofors, and are very close equivalents of the Alliant RL powders. I believe R904 is the equivalent of RL19, but I can't find my notes at this point in time, so this is off the top of my head.

It is quite "normal" for reloading manuals to differ on various cartridges. As irritating as this is, it just shows reloading is not an exact science and that the various tests were run under different conditions, premises and with different components. Fact of life. I always try to collect data from as many sources as possible and try to get an overview of what sounds realistic... Hardly a very exact approach either...

What 8x64S are you shooting, and what made you end up with this "oddball" caliber?? I have an R93 in 8x64S, primarily because France does not allow my beloved .30-06, and I have always been sceptical about 7mms for pigs, but still want a versatile mid-range caliber.

- mike

mho,

I do not have a 8x64 S.

I have recently put in the paperwork for my UK firearms licence renewal. This needs to be done every 5 years.

I have a .338-06. The police in the UK classify cartridges with .338 diameter bullets as dangerous game rifles. So, you are not allowed, or find it very difficult, to obtain permission for expanding hunting bullets. Reason: they have no 'acceptable' use in the UK.

I have had to rejustify being allowed to have expanding bullets for the .338-06. The police keep maintaining it is a .338 Win Mag or a .340 Weatherby etc. I have tried explaining it is a wildcat based upon the .30-06 case, just like the .270 Win etc. Therefore, the powder charge capacity is restricted and certainly less than the magnum .338s.

Anyway, as the UK police put emphasis on bore size, but 'allow' 8mm rifles, I explained that an 8mm was actually .323 inches in diameter, while the .338-06 was '.338'. I then provided data on the 'boiler-house' driving the bullet, and what velocities could be reasonably achieved within an acceptable safety margin.

I had to use published, unchallengeable data reference sources, ideally governmental testing bodies (DIN etc) to support my submission.

I was not aware of the RWS reloading powders. Then again, RUAG, who import the RWS range into the UK are not very good at maintaining supplies of ammunition and components here in the UK. Availability is patchy.

The good news is we can obtain Hodgson, IMR, Alliant, Norma (not easy, since it is sourced through RUAG, but 'do-able')and Vihtavuori powders.

I am uneasy about substituting one powder for another, even when referenced against manufacturers' tables which show 'equivalence' / comparability of their respective powders. Afterall, reloading is pressure vessel testing of sorts!

Taking a long term view, I would not be surprised when the UK authorities jump upon the no military cartridge rules for civillians. The UK authorities are always looking for new restrictions and inconveniences to saddle the shooting public with.

If / when that day comes, I think the 7x64 and 8x64 rifles will become more popular throughout the EU.

quote:

Originally posted by robthom:
I was looking at the ballistics publihed for the 8x64 round(Swan et al, 2002; LaGrange,1990 & Olson,2002).

If I were you, I would use serious European sources, like the handbooks from DEVA, RUAG, Nobel Sport, all of which contain reliable and pressure tested 8x64S data, not hearsay.

quote:

Or is there a mix up between standard 8x64 data and the "Bombe" hot / souped loading of this round

No such plus-P loads ever existed with the 8x64(S).

Carcano

Carcan91,

Thank you for the information.

I am unsure where Swan et al and LaGrange sourced the bullet weight / velocity data published in their respective books. It is listed amongst metric cartridge data, obviously, and is contained in a section with tables of manufacturers ballistics for various cartridges.

I believe the Olson data was obtained from the Mauser - DWM manufacturer specifications etc. However, the powder data is, I think, more or less useless for modern reloading.

I have not seen reloading manuals from RUAG and and Nobel Sport. Nor DEVA. Are these available in English, or with short summary section in English, enabling non German speakers to reload using their data?

I am currently trying to learn German. It is not an easy language!

quote:

Originally posted by robthom:
mho,


I have recently put in the paperwork for my UK firearms licence renewal. This needs to be done every 5 years.

I have a .338-06. The police in the UK classify cartridges with .338 diameter bullets as dangerous game rifles. So, you are not allowed, or find it very difficult, to obtain permission for expanding hunting bullets. Reason: they have no 'acceptable' use in the UK.
Anyway, as the UK police put emphasis on bore size, but 'allow' 8mm rifles. The UK authorities are always looking for new restrictions and inconveniences to saddle the shooting public with.

What if you were going hunting elsewhere than UK? like africa or Alaska? Who says that the rifles you buy should be used in GB? I know of a few brits who has BigBore double .450+ cal and has no problem in getting them.
It is my impression that the people in UK who administate Gunlaws like Homeoffice, is still living in the times were kings and queens has power, and has forgot that there was a reason why so many people went west to find freedom/liberty.
it seems so weird That one has to justify himself for the purchase of a firearm, but ofcouse, there must be a system that is so paranoid, that it still expects the commeners to rise an armed rebellion..(who would`n in that country)

Jens -

Following the Dunblane massacre of school children by a madman, and the inquiry, soft point and hollow point expanding: "Dum Dum" bullets (sic) were banned. I believe they are referred to as Section Five or Seven. The civillian, non State Operatives are prohibited from possessing them generally.

For deer hunting, they are mandatory. So, if you are an active deer hunter, you are allowed to have them. A special permission from the Home Office / Police.

However, you can only obtain expanding ammunition in bullet diameters which the Home Office / State recognise, or permit, for the use of hunting in the UK. In reality that means no expanding bullets in .375 and up. But you are allowed FMJ in those bullet diameters.

I am not sure whether the 9.3mm is ok or not - you can have soft tips. Shooting boar in Europe or moose in Norway, Sweden or Finland would not be an accpetable reason to possess expanding larger diameter bullets according the British State - it is outside the UK.


Now for the funny part. I am 'sure' it has organised crime and international terrorists shaking in their boots. You are not allowed larger bullet diameter expanding bullets in the UK.

So, when you go on a hunting trip this is what you must do. Just before you cross fully into the passenger embarking zone at an airport, you stand one side of the line marked on the floor and a registered firearms dealer or courier, standing on the UK side of the line, passes the box containing the larger bore expanding ammunition to you! When you return, you must repeat the procedure.

You cannot buy a rifle just because you would like a rifle in that calibre. For each and every, that is every individual rifle on your licence, you must justify ownership to the police. If you are allowed to posses one, it does not necessarily mean the authorities will allow you to have expanding bullets, only fmj

As far armed insurrection: late eighteenth through the nineteenth century, there was significant political agitation for full adult emancipation, voting rights, freedom of trade union membership. The Suffragettes (spelling) actually bombed some buildings.

Then directly after the First World War, there was lots of social and political trouble in the UK. In 1919, tanks / armoured vehicles were used on demonstraters in George Square, Glasgow. They were marching / demonstrating about poor treatment of their families while they were in the trenches, unemployment and eviction from their homes.

Around this time, political violence reached a zenith in Ireland, ending with an Easter 1916 armed revolution and finally full independence from London.

From a British Government viewpoint, the British people are a problem to be managed. Not unlike the fuzzy wuzzies during the days of the Empire - fix bayonets!

Hi Rob!

I feel so sad for the english people, that their system is so...stupid....and the police
are so stricked in inforcing the laws. I would truly consider moving to another country if i was a citizen
of UK...maybe New Zealand

Robthom

You have posted your experiences - mine differ.

I live in the UK. I hold amongst others, a .375HH. I can buy expanding heads (section one) over the counter at any number of UK shops. I have it entered on my certificate for UK usage from mouse to moose as well as zeroing and on all approved ranges.

Provide your 'good reason' and your ticket may well be issued in a commonsense mannner.
ie: 'I am intending a dangerous game safari and the outfitter insists I am practiced and familiar with the firearm. I require to zero and practice with the type of ammunition I will be using abroad.'

Statements that highlight your belief that 'NO rifle calibre should be fired unless there is a solid earth backstop to catch the exiting bullet' reassure no end. It doesn't matter what the calibre is - so long as it is used safely. If not - they are all equally lethal in the wrong place!

Rgds Ian

IanF,

I have a .375H&H also. The usage stated on my certificate is wild boar and elk/moose in Europe and Scandinavia.

I was allowed expanding heads previously. However, when I came to renew my certificate post Dunblane massacre legislation, the permission was removed. I am allowed fmj, and that is what I will be using for practice when my new rifle is completed.

As you rightly point out, although the law applies equally in England and Wales, the different regional police forces interpret and apply Parliament's directions differently.

I am fortunate to live within one of the more liberal police force areas. I believe Devon and Cornwall police are more understanding also.

I explained about different bullet forms/shapes - fmj round nose and 'semi pointed' expanding not shooting to the same point of impact necessarily, the need for expanding ammo for wild boar etc. Unfortunately, it did not change things.

I pointed out the safe backstop argument. Just about all the popular stalking / hunting rounds have a maximum range between circa 4000 and 4500 yards when fired at the optimal elevation.

Interestingly, and to contradict my statements, a man who shoots at the rifle club I belong to uses a .375H&H for stalking. As well as hunting in Africa etc. He has a piece of land in Scotland where he uses it. But I think his police area is the English North Midlands or a bit further north and not the south of England.

Bye the way, I have held a firearms certificate continuously since 1981 for full bore hunting rifles. So, I do not think it is necessarily a newcomer, new to the area issue.

Robthom.

It is these inequalities under the same law that make me mad.

If commonsense were applied to licensing - things would be vastly easier to administer and correspondingly cheaper to run. Makes me wonder how much of the issue revolves around jobs for the boys - and how much deals with covering yr ass on the part of the FLO concerned!

Rgds Ian

IanF,

The inequalities under the same law not only affects shooting. There are wide discrepancies in the way traffic police deal with exceeding the speed limit or parking violations.

I am glad I do not live within the North Wales Police area! Makes the Taliban look like the Milkshake kids!

My personal philosophy is a libertarian one in which everyone is free to please themselves, but takes responsibilty for their own actions / decisions and accept the consequences accordingly.

I am a bit overweight. Insurance companies charge a higher premium than if I was thin and athletic. I have no problem with this. I should get down the gym and exercise!

Ditto smokers. The local nickname for cigarettes is "Coffin Nails". We know they are not goood for you, there is no avoiding the scientific data, so do n't complain when they make you seriously ill.

I agree with you, the indemnity - insurance issue affects many things. The civil service is notorious, according to the business sector, for not making decisions or giving woolley advice.

If you say no, you cannot get blamed when nothing happens. However, if you make a real decision and make a mistake.................

How on earth did we leave the caves, huddled in the dark, eating raw meat!


Anyway, I would like, out of curiosity, to find out more about the 8x64.