If any one has the BDS level 2 qualification is it worth obtaining?
I have access to stalking in my part of the world without it, but friends keep pushing me towards doing it.
If you have done it who with, and would you recommend them?

SWS,

Firstly welcome to the forum! I you do a search in the archives of this particular forum on mandatory testing and qualifications, I think we have had one or two different discussions on the subject.

In principle I am very against complusory testing here in the UK, as i view it as another possible way to limit access to shooting and stalking by the Powers that be.I also see certain people in the stalking world using training as a "cash cow" and are exploiting people, usually novice stalkers

I do however believe in voluntary training ect and believe by and large the system we have over here works quite well and there is no need to make it manditory.

With regards the Level 2, do you feel you need to brush up on your training or is it a case of just getting somebody to witness your three stalks?

I would not pay silly amounts of money to people to do one of these courses that turns you into an "instant expert", but if you can get an acredited witness to come down and watch your three of your stalks, I think its worth while.

As times goes on, whether we like it or not, there are going to be more resistrictions on stalking, and in reality, the more bits of paper you hold, the more you will stay ahead of the game.

Although you have stalking at the minute, what happens if you loose it and need to look else where? Many, many places won't accept stalkers now with out some sort of qualification. Holding the qualification also gives you an extra edge when renewal time comes for your FAC or if you require a variation on it...

Regards,

Pete

My opinion...is its a money spinning restriction,if you have stalking,and you have experienced friends,learn from them,you will learn far more.
We have enough red tape to stop people shooting and stalking.

Cheers Roebuck

SWS,
Unfortunately were are living in an environment and society that is trying to covers it arse at every opportunity.
The DMQ qualifications wether we like them or not are here to stay,that said they do not make you a better stalker. But! In the event of an accident/liability claim it will stand you way ahead of the "non-qualified".
It will become legislation sooner rather than later, where by you will be required to show some qualification to be able to hold a deer calibre rifle.
There are unfortunately a few rotten apples who need to be weeded out within the DMQ"2" accredited witness scheme,there should be set scale of charges, this would make it difficult for those who see it as a "cash cow" and milk it!!!
There is however another scenario to the DMQ qualification, there is european legislation afoot that will allow you to sell your carcass direct to the public, without the need for a venison dealers license,and as with all environmental health issues there is the need to show that you are able through a training standard allow food to enter the food chain. without it you will have to sell to the dealer....
You make up your own mind! there are those who think after years of stalking they know it all and that DMQ can teach them nothing.

Griff
BASC Deer co-ordinator
Galloway stalking scheme

Griff,

You have a PM!

regards,

Pete

Pete,
My spam program has generated an error on this message.
send griff@oksmoke.co.uk

Griff

Griff,

That should be just an email notification...if you go to the top of the thread and on the left hand side, you should see a "GO" icon...click that, and then scroll and click "my space" and then "private messages"...

Unlike the old software you don't get a notification here on the boards that you have recieved a PM...

Regards,

Pete

A couple of years ago a friend and I decided we needed to have the DMQ level one, actually we were being forced into that particular corner. That apart we attended the course and our classmates were all experienced stalkers, all of whom incidenatally were there because they needed the certificate for various reason's. They were all experienced except for a family of three, parents and a teenaged son. They had never shot a beast between them, one had never shot a rifle I think I am right in saying, nothing wrong with that we all had to start somewhere. The thing is at the end of the course all three had qualified, and therefore, in the eyes of those who put great store by these things, were equal to those of us who had followed the more traditional route.

Now please don't think that I am having a go at these people I am not. It is just that it seem's that the old cash question raises it's head again, someone is getting fat out of the system.

John

John,

I can understand & agree with what you are saying, as like that family, I started stalking in a similar way. It was not a DSC1 but a simply a for runner to the BDS's NSCC. It gave me the introduction to stalking I needed and provided a spring board for me to continue. It was a tiny but important step forward to me at the time.

Remember when the DCS1 was introduced and we were told that it was the only qualification that the average recreational staker would "need"?

It was only a couple or three years later that leases were starting to be advertised saying "Must have Level 1 and should be working towards Level 2".. These days most of the bigger forestry company's want you to have Level 2.

In a way, I can understand it as the Level 1 is very, very basic. Even the Level 2 does nothing to show how much real world expirence a person has, rather simply that they stalked and gralloched 3 deer to a certain standard.

We all know that a complete novice could be pushed through the Level 2 in a weekend if it is carried out in a Deer Park.

I am not sure who is at "fault" here; the BASC/BDS for designing the qualification as it is, or the trainee stalkers/accredited witnesses for "abusing the loop holes" so to speak???

I am lucky in that I am in the St Hubert Club so training as not been an issue for me. The Club provides both expirence and training at minimal cost to new members, and indeed to go through the training system from start to finish usually takes between 4 to 6 years depending upon a number of factors.

In that time one of the requirements is that a person will have stalked and gralloched a minimum of 10 deer...Thats not a huge amount by any means, but it starts to show a degree of expirience when you factor in the time scales invloved and the fact these are shot under "real world" conditions, not in a Park.

However, as much as I think itan excellent system, I think it only works because we are dealing with a limited number of people...the BASC/BDS scheme is designed to set standards and be available to a much higher number of people and that I think is one of its strengths.

Another organisation which delivers excellent training is the Services Branch of the BDS. Having stalked with and talked to some of its members, I am very impressed with their approach. Again though you are involved with delivering training to only a limited number of people...

I would like to see stalkers get together and deliver training on an expenses bases only..same with the assessed stalks by accredited witnesses..If I lived nearer my stalking ground I would only be to happy to help novice stalkers where I could, simply because I am grateful for all the help I recieved when I first started..

Maybe BAS/BDS should start a list of stalkers willing to act as mentors?? Maybe BASC/BDS could then provide support to these mentors so the knowledge/training they were sharing was of a similar standard and at the level required for the Novice's to do their DSC1 and 2??

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

I agree completely with your desire to help people get started. If we are to keep country sports going it is down to us to bring in new blood and nurture it.

Many of us got into this through "our dads/uncles etc shooting" or a shooting buddy broadening our horizons. Nowadays there are heaps of people that have the desire but no contacts. So within reason I think we need to self regulate and train from the inside rather than give someone a two day course and send them on their way with a bit of paper and a new rifle.

After all just because someone can shoot clays doesn't mean we can send them out onto the foreshore/salt marsh and expect them to get back in one peice. I use the wildfowling analogy because I think that in the longer term, Stalking clubs will grow like the wildfowling clubs have done, and this will be the best way to educate new stalkers properly.

Just MHO.... FB

Whilst I do not wish to see inexperienced guns wounding any noble animal I fail to see any real advance by these courses. A friend of mine goes on them all. He's even been on one to teach him how to drive a vehicle off road !!
He still lacks field skill and bits of paper wont give it to him.
The only people who seem to gain from this are the ones holding their hand out for cash and orgs like the BASC who push for everyone to go on one so that we can all look up and say "Ah I have a bit of paper and I'm a responsible hunter".
The only problem with this is that the anti's don't give a monkeys how many bits of paper that you've got and neither do ACPO. They just want all guns out of the publics hands.
I've been witness to the shooting in this country shooting its self in the foot for long enough.
I just want to hunt and nothing else> In the time that we have to still be able to do it!!

Pete,

I hear what you are saying and, believe it or not, I am ALMOST inclined to agree with all qualifying test's being taken by hunters. However as you pointed out we have progressed from proprietors demanding a level 1 certificate to them wanting a level 2 certificate. What I find worrying is what comes next. Do the powers that be have a new money making scheme, known as a qualification, lurking on the sidelines.

I can appreciate the feeling of well being that hunters can possess from being the holder of some sort of qualification, one that shows they have demonstrated a skill level above average, but I think it should be a matter of personal choice.

The introduction of some sort of basic level of formal training may not be a bad thing. The level 1 covers basic safety, marksmanship, legislation and quarry identification, this perhaps could form the basis of such a formal training scheme. Thereafter any further training and qualification gaining, would be a matter of personal choice as the individual gains experience. Like a driving test really, prove your basic competence and if and when you are experienced enough and you feel the need, take the advanced test.

The trouble is all I can see further down the road is the need for us all to have these pieces of paper. Then the ironic thing is when I am forced into having the next level I shall probably use one of these "qualify in a weekend" establishments just for the sake of expediency.

Strange how life goes is it not

John

fortune John,

If you read by earlier posts again, you will see that I am against compulsory testing as much as you guys are and believe me, I have the same reservations about it being used as cash generator or as another way to restrict access to stalking.

My earlier comments about training were very much aimed at people who would like some training, help gaining experience or who just enjoy meeting up with like minded people and talking “Deerâ€â€¦Personally I still enjoy meeting up for a range session or a larder day, but I totally agree that it should not be mandatory…

I am also very much against these various tests becoming “compulsory†via the back door..ie the Police demanding them before granting a FAC or Forestry Company’s making them a requirement to get a lease, but what as stalkers can we do about it??? Especially in the latter case when you are looking for a lease???…

Unless you are one of the lucky few with the right connections, stalking leases are getting harder to come by so that most people, myself included, are forced to jump through loops to get them..

That is the reality of todays world especially if you live in an area with no deer and are forced to travel to stalk or if you are a complete new comer to the sport and don’t know anybody already involved. On the lease I am on at present, the Forestry Company is now stating that everybody must have a Level1 and preferably a Level 2. Some of the other local guys have been stalking far longer than I and have been on that particular lease quite a few years and have never been a source of complaint….why should they be forced to do it?

In response to that, the Forestry Company say it is to cover their own back in case of an accident and subsequent litigation. In light of the society we live in today, its probably an understandable business decision from their perspective??? Again, I don't like this particular situation, but thats whats happening..

Regards,

Pete

Pete

I think we are all of the same opinion over this. The sad truth is it will never go away and we will have to deal with it. So I shall keep waving my level 1 certificate at whoever demands I have it, until I need a level 2.

Then it will be off for a weekend's adventure paying some bugger a lot of my money so that I can carry on doing the same thing in the same places.

Now tell me again how much fun we have doing this

John

When one has access to regular stalking, that is the time to consolidate and insure by sorting the dsc2 in your own time on your own ground.
Fine if you can be sure of shooting three deer on three occassions, but in practice most probably have an outing to kill ratio of 3:1/4:1/5:1? Hence you need an AW who is local and not mercenary in his time/money outlook because being under pressure to find the right deer is not condusive to a successful outing.
Alternatively you shift some of the pressure to the AW to supply the ground/ opportunity and animals and pay up. The problem is you'll be on unfamiliar ground and the AW is not behaving as a guide so the success rate is far from guaranteed...unless they have access to park deer/ then the real value of the qualification is somewhat demeaned.

Hi all,
here is a thought.
If one were to produce all the reciepts from deer sold to ones local game dealer...(and they must have been properly shot and gralloched or he wouldn't have taken them),and showed all my mounted roe trophys,would this surely not qualify as a better proof that you were capable.

legislation wuill be the death of field sports.

Roebuck222

Roebuck222,

Playing devils advocate all that does not prove that you carried out the stalking in a safe manner nor does it prove you know how to inspect a carcass...

Personally I think the things you mention plus say references from people you previously leased stalking from, along with similar references from any clients you have taken out, should be good enough for any Forestry Company to secure a lease, but like it or not these days it appears more and more thats not the case.

The new red tape from Europe with regards carcass inspection looks as if it will effect many of the larger Pheasant shoots as well...

Regards,

Pete

Pete,
here's the thing,I know I carried out the stalking in a safe and professional manner,the same goes for the preperation of the carcass before it went to the game dealer...who as you know also inspects them,he would not pay for bad carcasses.
The little bit of paper means absolutely nothing in the great scheme of things,I have a driving license,I still see people who (I assume)hold licenses who I would not let lose on merry go round cars.
The magical deer qual cert proves nothing (apart from the fact you sat the test)

and legislation will still kill field sports more effectively than any anti demo.

cheers Roebuck

i"m reading quietly, and with interest to everyone"s opinion, and i don"t have a passionate view one way or the other.
i will point out my own experience from only just today. i live in northern ireland, where
the police insist on lvl 1 dmq for the grant of an fac for a deer legal calibre. so off i went, about 3 years ago, when i wanted to get into stalking. i was shown how to do a feild gralloch and larder work by a friend in scotland, and have been working merrily away ever since.
but now i thought i might do lvl2 before someone insists that you need it to sell carcasses, so i asked a lvl2 witness, whom i know over here, if i could assist him with his cull for a day, and use this to finish my lvl2(i already had 1 witnessed cull)
the point is this - i"m a moderatley experienced stalker, and i learned more today from someone whom i would"nt have been out with if i had"nt been doing lvl 2, than i would in a year of stalking on my own.
i"m afraid we"re in an ever more regulated world, and we"re going to have to live with it whether we like it or not!