Just seen this on Guntrader

The Deer Commission For Scotland has out lined plans for instigating the introduction of Hunters Licenses similar the the European and Scandinavian systems.

This would in effect make it illegal to shoot any deer in Scotland without holding a DSC2 ticket as well as being a registered hunter on the DSC data base.

Under section 291/6 the DCS propose

"DCS recommends that a register for all those who shoot deer should be set up. All those on the register would need to have demonstrated practical deer skills and knowledge. This would build on assessment approaches already in place and on the DCS database of those authorised to shoot deer out of season. It would be a new offence for anyone to take or kill deer without being on the register. Only those shooting deer under supervision of a person on the register would be exempt, and provisions would be put in place to recognise foreign awards or licences which meet Scottish standards. The introduction of the register would be phased in over a number of years. This approach would support the principle of the individual being responsible for their own actions, and bring Scotland in line with many of our European neighbours, which operate systems of hunting licences. All those on the register would have to submit an annual cull return.

Also proposed is an open season on all male deer and a shortened female season."

Apparently the proposal is backed by the BDS but opposed by BASC.

For whom the bell tolls eh?

More training, more costs,(You don't think they will be letting you register for free do you. LOL) more money spinning exploitation.

quote:

Apparently the proposal is backed by the BDS but opposed by BASC.

One wonders why? Nothing of course to do with trying to increase the influence of the obnoxious BDS.

I do hope that those in Scotland can write to their MSP about this further attempt at creating a select coterie with qualifications approved of by the BDS.

Is the BDS registered as a charity?

IMHO a good move for deer welfare and collaborative management

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Apparently the proposal is backed by the BDS but opposed by BASC.

This sort of thing and their stance on changing on legislation on the use of shotguns proves the BDS are no friends of stalkers.

I was once told by a senior member that if ever a practical method of birth control for deer was devised, they would not endorse stalking at all..

That was enough for me; I stopped my membership as I have no intention of contributing funding to what is rapidly becoming an "anti" dominated organisation...

So, it would suppose to require again; among the EU; in conjuction with another overbearing License (German Jagdschein) another "Certificate" to include a Visitor's Firearms Permit to stalk in the UK (Oh, Scotland is included) although as suggested it's supposed to be EU reciprocting (in the UK - go figure). Why the Level I, II, III, Superaltive or whatever catagory when one (Hunting License) is required?

Not considering the Cost(?) (of course to be borne by those who elect to pursue this "Sport") for whatever Paperwork & Education is required.....

Again, another scheme & response to the "Greater Thinking " and "All Knowing" than those who regularly "Shoot" (at targets, sorry not; actually kill) (Gasp!) Deer.

Where's the Driven Bird License for those Twi.., sorry Idiots, who won't get their hands (or shoes) dirty while shooting countless thousands of Birds annualy?

You're on the Way to Hell & you haven't realiz(s)ed it yet!.

Good Luck.

Bless you, my Bretheren.

I think that while it is total BS, it might in the long run help your cause.

It will give all of you a single point for liscensing and registration of your hunting credentials. If the fees are kept small enough and you are allowed to do this through the BASC it could be a way for all those wayword stalkers who don't normally contribute toward the better end of the sport. IE they don't pay or throw money at the correct politicians to insure than hunting stays part of the British scene.

Seem to remember that I got put on the register about 3 years ago now, and guess what it was free!!

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:

This sort of thing and their stance on changing on legislation on the use of shotguns proves the BDS are no friends of stalkers.

I was once told by a senior member that if ever a practical method of birth control for deer was devised, they would not endorse stalking at all..

It was enough for me too.

I can never reconcile how they can hold their hand out for money to every stalker in the land, yet steadfastly fail them at every turn of the page.

Its a pity the St Huberts Club are not a big, stronger organisation. At least we stalkers would know we had a voice at the table if they were.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:
IMHO a good move for deer welfare and collaborative management

Presumably you'd have them all using .243's and 70gr BT's.

Can someone tell us how far this has progressed? Would this be enshrined in statute for example?

I am about to start my DSC2 but think it should remain a voluntary certificate. Surely restricting the number of people qualified to stalk deer they are exacerbating the over-population of deer which is affecting the woodlands and highlands of the UK?

Also, is there proof that the BDS is supporting this proposal?

For those who would like to read the proposal for themselves here is the link to the relevant page on the DCS web site.

http://www.dcs.gov.uk/downloads/OpenBoardPapersDec08.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by H5:


Its a pity the St Huberts Club are not a big, stronger organisation. At least we stalkers would know we had a voice at the table if they were.

Make your mind up H5 you would be supporting a club that insisted on compulsory training testing and qualifcations.

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Originally posted by DJM:

Make your mind up H5 you would be supporting a club that insisted on compulsory training testing and qualifcations.

Nope, the Club doesn't support compulsory training or testing...Every member is a volunteer...its up to them if they want to join, and once a person joins, it is up to them just how much or little of the Club training they do..

As a member they also get to voice an opinion on that training and vote on changes ect...

All in all, its about as different approach to training as the DCS/BDS proposals as you can get..

Still, the Club is relatively small only having 350 members, what shooters in the UK need is something like the American NRA ie an organisation which is essentially political in nature..BASC have the numbers, but are just a little too willing to compromise and not willing to be militant enough; their handling of the lead shot issue for instance..

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:

Make your mind up H5 you would be supporting a club that insisted on compulsory training testing and qualifcations.

Nope, the Club doesn't support compulsory training or testing...Every member is a volunteer...its up to them if they want to join, and once a person joins, it is up to them just how much or little of the Club training they do..

As a member they also get to voice an opinion on that training and vote on changes ect...

All in all, its about as different approach to training as the DCS/BDS proposals as you can get..

Still, the Club is relatively small only having 350 members, what shooters in the UK need is something like the American NRA ie an organisation which is essentially political in nature..BASC have the numbers, but are just a little too willing to compromise and not willing to be militant enough; their handling of the lead shot issue for instance..

So can a member with no training or testing shoot deer unaccompanied on the clubs ground?

Nope, but thats a Club rule, one a person agrees to when one joins...

Theres nothing compulsory about it, if you don't join the Club you are still free to stalk elsewhere... Nor do the Club try to govern how members/ non members stalk on other ground, which is exactly what the DCS/BDS proposal is...

Under these proposals, if you owned ground in Scotland, you wouldn't even be allowed to stalk on it yourself with out holding a Level2 and being on "The Register"; its nothing more than further Government sponsored infringements of a persons individual freedoms...

Interestingly I believe that about 70% of the BDS membership are stalkers.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:

BASC have the numbers, but are just a little too willing to compromise and not willing to be militant enough; their handling of the lead shot issue for instance..

Pete - I think the fact that BASC do not take the militant line is why they still have (some) clout in politics. I agree, they sometimes seem to fold in too quickly to government pressure, but I believe they ARE listened to by politicians who matter .... something to be envied by other smaller organisations - the likes of the countryside alliance for example, who are probably now thought of by politicians as radicals.....radicals don't get political backing!

Rgs

Nige
(BASC fan)



...... rant over!

You mean political backing like the Government gave BASC over the lead shot ban?

And BASC did a stellar job fighting the pistol and hunting with hounds bans didn't they?

You could say that it wasn't BASC's remit to fight either of those two things, which is fine and understandable, but thats why we need a political organisation that will look out for all aspects of our political well being....

Regards,

Peter

Well, to be fair, houndsports were not BASC remit and I'm glad BASC funds were not spent on defending houndsports. Especially as here in Leicestershire we had to endure on the local television self-called "Quorn Hunt spokesmen" talking of shot foxes crawling off to die of gangrene.

I'm afraid my view of the houndsports fraternity I saw then was one of people trying to tarnish shooting with such rubbish in order to preserve their pastime. I was disgusted.

I recall a 'phone call at the time to my local range.

"Hello it's XXX here from the British Field Sports Society here. Can can we count on your members to come on the march against the hunting ban. What, what?"

"Yes. No problem we will be bringing as many as came from your organisation to support the march against the pistol ban."

"Oh, splendid, splendid. Jolly well done. How many buses do you need. How people many can we expect then?"

"Fuck all."

And then, for no reason at all, said chinless wonder hung up. We never did understand why!


As to the pistol ban Bill Harriman came to and spoke at a number of meetings against the then proposed pistol ban.

I also heard and went to the meetings organised by BASC over the lead shot on wetlands ban. Well unfortunately they didn't do too well.

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Originally posted by DJM:

quote:

Originally posted by H5:


Its a pity the St Huberts Club are not a big, stronger organisation. At least we stalkers would know we had a voice at the table if they were.

Make your mind up H5 you would be supporting a club that insisted on compulsory training testing and qualifcations.

But at least we would know that they put stalking and stalkers at the forefront of any proposal. Not ways of increasing their revenue stream or bolstering their flagging influence in the political arena.
This is the second political hot potato the BDS have been in the middle of in the last month. Their paltry attempt at muddying the waters regarding the use of shotguns to control deer being the first.

As Pete says. "All in all, its about as different approach to training as the DCS/BDS proposals as you can get..

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3 Nige:
Pete - I think the fact that BASC do not take the militant line is why they still have (some) clout in politics. I agree, they sometimes seem to fold in too quickly to government pressure, but I believe they ARE listened to by politicians who matter .... something to be envied by other smaller organisations - the likes of the countryside alliance for example, who are probably now thought of by politicians as radicals.....radicals don't get political backing!

Nige

You shouldn't believe all that you read in the BASC PR blurb.

What we need is something along the lines of the French, FNC, the national federation of local hunting associations, and their CPNT, the abbreviation for Chasse - Peche - Nature - Traditions, a single-issue political party representing the interests of hunters and fishermen at the national level.

When the French government tried to impose the EU ruling regarding a shortening of their wildfowling season they stormed government building en mass in protest and the French government have never yet gotten around to implementing the season changes.

quote:

Originally posted by H5:

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3 Nige:
Pete - I think the fact that BASC do not take the militant line is why they still have (some) clout in politics. I agree, they sometimes seem to fold in too quickly to government pressure, but I believe they ARE listened to by politicians who matter .... something to be envied by other smaller organisations - the likes of the countryside alliance for example, who are probably now thought of by politicians as radicals.....radicals don't get political backing!

Nige

You shouldn't believe all that you read in the BASC PR blurb.

What we need is something along the lines of the French, FNC, the national federation of local hunting associations, and their CPNT, the abbreviation for Chasse - Peche - Nature - Traditions, a single-issue political party representing the interests of hunters and fishermen at the national level.

When the French government tried to impose the EU ruling regarding a shortening of their wildfowling season they stormed government building en mass in protest and the French government have never yet gotten around to implementing the season changes.

Yes thats a good idea lets follow the French they dont have compulsory testing or a ban on military or ex-military calibres do they

Lets follow the french but first sell your 30-06 308 6.5x55 7x57 223 etc at least .243 and 70gr is legal over there

Although, in truth, the ban on military calibres dates from 1939.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:
Yes thats a good idea lets follow the French they dont have compulsory testing or a ban on military or ex-military calibres do they

Lets follow the french but first sell your 30-06 308 6.5x55 7x57 223 etc at least .243 and 70gr is legal over there

TTBOMK Hunters don't have to pass tests in France and the non military cartridge rule was imposed before WW2. So the point of your post is what?

A feeble attempt too justify your .243 70gr BT suggestion perhaps. I think you'll find our french and other european hunting brothers are as equally dismissive of the suggestion as we are.

Too many groups with too many interests/aims, we are divided so we will be conquered, without a doubt, No one individual or group in the U.K. has enough strength on its own to achieve any real progress with any of our sports, How many B.A.S.C. "members" are just in for the insurance for instance? Why do we in B.A.S.C. have a Deer officer?, I haven't heard of a Ferret officer, or a Fox officer, Duck officer?, If we all stuck together we could properly resist those that wish to end it all!

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TTBOMK Hunters don't have to pass tests in France...

Unfortunately to get a Permis de Chasse, yes, but unlike in the UK, this then gives permission to shoot in the publicly owned forests where "hunting" is allowed.

I don't know what is the reciprocal situation with our FAC. As regardless of the nonsense of the BDS to get a live quarry shooting permission on one's FAC it has been necessary to convince the Firearms Licensing Officer that you have good reason (which would include competency) to have live quarry put on it.

Most gun shops in France accept such an FAC as the equivalent of a Permis de Chasse for buying ammunition. And laugh at the BDS and its self-important pieces of paper! They will not sell ammunition on the presentation of a DCS!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Most gun shops in France accept such an FAC as the equivalent of a Permis de Chasse for buying ammunition. And laugh at the BDS and its self-important pieces of paper! They will not sell ammunition on the presentation of a DCS!

Richard

Sorry.I should have written compulsory testing.

Not wishing to appear pedantic. But neither do we. The only people who appear to place any value on the DSC certificates are the FA, DCS and to a lesser degree the PA's.

Oh and the BDS and DMQ money grabbers of course. But then they would , wouldn't they.

quote:

don't know what is the reciprocal situation with our FAC. As regardless of the nonsense of the BDS to get a live quarry shooting permission on one's FAC it has been necessary to convince the Firearms Licensing Officer that you have good reason (which would include competency) to have live quarry put on it.

I've phrased that all "arse about".

What I was trying to say was most sensible FA Enquiry Officers are happy that an applicant can prove merely good reason and competence to have live quarry on an FAC without having to produce one of these stupid BDS Certificates. In other words without regard to the nonsense of these DCS Certificates.

And long may it be so!

And that I don't know if a British FAC with a live quarry condition on it is acceptable in France as being equal to a Permis de Chasse.

The thread seems to have taken a swerve towards a discussion of BDS and whether its an organisation that supports shooting or not, rather than a response to H5's original posting. Deer Commission for Scotland is soon to be subsumed into a larger and more influential Scottish Natural Heritage. This is probably going to be a retrograde step and we will all have to work hard on persuading SNH to take a collaborative approach towards land managers when dealing with deer and related issues. DCS have one last chance to influence the situation in forthcoming legislation (which may or may not come about). What they are trying to do here is not garner funds (which would be a bit pointless seeing as they only have a short time ahead as an independent body, but to safeguard the contribution that sport hunters make to the control of deer and the small but significant effect that hunters have on local economies. The DCS Board have been given a strong steer by the Scottish Government that their proposals should include measures to improve deer welfare so as to make the subject more palatable to MSPs who have urban constituencies and viewpoints. Positive support for some of the DCS proposals will be influential in creating a positive political environment for the future. That is much more important than casting aspersions, right or wrong, about the supposed ulterior motives of DCS and other organisations.

As a D.S.C. Level one cert holder, I am listed as a"Trained hunter", I have also undergone the hygiene/processing papers/certs etc: Do I now have to consider binning this paper trail on a whim from Scottish beuro's?, At the risk of sounding immature, How would people react if suddenly a full U.K. driving license was no longer any good north of Gretna?

Speaking as an NSCC holder - it feels pretty poor!

Been there, done that - still bitter and twisted.

Rgds Ian

So a register of those licensed to shoot deer and an annual cull return.

Handy for the taxman don't you think! I hear that this is an area the taxman is interested in at the moment.

The tax man is interested in every little money making aspect of our lives.