Can,t see the problem! With the orange blaze I can see you! and I know who you are!
It makes no difference to the deer as they only see in contrast.
Safety should be paramount!! and it would only take one incident to fuel the fires of the non believers.
We instruct all our stalkers to wear a blaze sash, no sash no stalk!! if it stops some of the less experienced stalkers inspecting you through the scopes then so be it.
Accidents do happen, but hopefully not on my shift...

Griff

Griff,

As we don't have free public hunting, who are these inexpirienced stalkers who glass people with their scopes that you allow to stalk your land?

I know everybody who is on my lease and not one of them would even *think* of using thier scope to glass an unknown object.

The problem I see is that wearing blaze orange is to compensate for the sloppy standards of others and in and of it self does nothing to address the root problem. Eventually you perpetuate the idea that if "that something" you can't figure out does not have blaze oranage, it can't an another human as "everybody else on the land wears blaze orange"...

On driven hunts or where there are other situations where you have high numbers of people in the stalking area, thats a bit different and I do believe it is a good safety measure.

I rue the day that comes to British stalking when we can't drag a deer out without worrying that some idiot will take a snap shot at it...lets stamp out poor practice before it gets started!

Regards,

Pete

From 1 April the Ministry of Defence is insisting that it's deer managers must wear a blaze orange hat.



Apparently it make them less likely to shoot someone.



I wonder how long it takes before the various jobs-for-the-boys stalking organisations start promoting this as "Best Practice".

Is there any relevance to the introduction date?

Maybe orange bunny ears are required as well.

Deersdogs,



Whats the source of your story?



The reason I ask is that I know a couple of guys in the Services Branch, BDS and one had never heard of it and the other, a more senior guy, said well yes, there might be such a requirement but it will only be on one area...he was loath to go into more detail and said it was still a "sensitive issue". Reading between the lines it might well be scotched all together yet...



Regards,



Pete

In Sweden we have these blaze orange hats or even orange waistcoats on the moose-hunts and other similar events when a lot of hunters are out togehter. I have had roe deer as close as 15 meters from me when I had such a hat, and you can se your fellow hunters on a long distance when nothing but the hat is visible. But then the purpose is of course to proctect the guy in the hat from being shot. It seems rather stupid to wear it when out alone or together with a stalker/guide - what's the purpose???

Marterius,

Quote:

---

It seems rather stupid to wear it when out alone or together with a stalker/guide - what's the purpose???

---

When you find out, please let us nknow because it seems really stupid to us too!

Regards,

Pete

Sounds utterly ridiculous. Would not a requirement to telephone beat sharers before going out make more sense.

The evidence for such a requirment - number of non orange wearing stalkers shot, number of near misses?

It is even more incredible when you realise all of them have to have been in the services.

Insurers?

Pete,
Agree totally, let's stamp out sloppy practices! There is however a difference between sloppy practices and inexperience. We run a program which offers the novice stalker an opportunity to stalk on his/her own. With 6 stalkers on a large tract of upland forestry there may be occasions where stalkers boundaries meet and in the interest of safety of everyone an orange blaze is crucial.
With leases in England and Scotland becoming increasingly difficult to obtain without experience, offering stalking to inexperienced stalkers (min dmq1) comes with certain obligations - one is their safety!!!

Griff

The bottom line is that you only raise you rifle at something you have positivly identified as something you intend to shoot.

The wearing of blaze orange is a complete red herring and in fact detracts from safety in that the hunter could be lulled into a false sense of security by adopting the mindset "no orange seen = safe to shoot". Given we live on a small crowded island, with every likleyhood of Mr & Mrs Miggins excercising their Right to Roam in a fold of ground near you, then we must assume that Joe Public is likely to be anywhere and everywhere. And guess what? HE DOES NOT WEAR ORANGE!

I agree with Pete - The mandatory use of Orange, in the long term, will increase the chances of an accident occuring. Except on some drive hunts but we do not do those here anyway.

What would make more sense is the mandatory use of binoculars!!

Griff,



I commend anybody giving inexperienced stalkers a chance to get out on their own and I also commend you going the extra bit over safety, but I think Deerdogs can see where I am comming from on this...You basically have a whole host of people who could be out on the ground (either legitimately or not) and they will not be wearing blaze orange.



I would hope that in reality this would not be a problem with anybody who has the Level 1...



Tell me, if a stalker turned up without bino's, would you allow them to stalk? Just a hypothetical question for the sake of dicussuion here!



Regards,



Pete

I would agree with PeteE and Deerdogs, if a safe shot is taken it's all immaterial.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs if we think that people from level 1 DMQ are scoping things or shooting at movement or noise or anything other than a deer the sex of which they have identified in a safe position.

I still can't get my head round the concept here because...it is only the mod stalker with a loaded weapon who is to wear an orange hat band. Supposedly to identify "him" too "right to roam folks " as a live firing person when the red flags are not flying.
It's not intended to stop him being shot at; it's to tell ramblers there is the possibility of live firing .

Trans Pond,

You are almost there, but the orange hat will only mean something to those who have been briefed accordingly, which in real terms is a small percentage of those the deer manager could meet. The whole idea is daft.

Sounds to me like some sort of political correct idea that the poor members of the public should notice the stalker well in advance and be spared the life-long traumas caused by suddenly stumbling on an armed man in camo!? Not a matter of actual security for anyone, just the therapy-society at work.



Regards,

Martin

I don't think there is amongst us anyone who has not looked through his/her scope to identify an object!!! I never suggested that level 1 or 2 stalkers do this!!! I merely pointed out that a blaze orange sash would reduce the possibility.

Pete,
never thought of that scenario, but will now carry a spare set of bino,s.
It certainly wouldn't and hasn't stopped me when I have gone out without bino's.

There has been occasions when I have had to identify the sex with the scope because the bino's mag were not sufficient, its not ideal, but if that is the only way to ascertain the sex then so be it.
Lets be honest here,after identifying wether its legal or not, how many of you have raised the rifle only to find out its not what you thought it was!!!

Griff

As an American Hunter I find this discussion interesting. In the States it has been pretty much conclusively proven that Blaze orange reduces hunting accidents. It is required almost everywhere except for bowhunting. I'm sure a lot of your hunting methods are different but the fuss still surprises me. I want the other hunters out there to know right where I am.......DJ

My understanding of US hunting is that you have a lot of "occaisional" hunters all wanting their buck in a short season. Such conditions could give rise for a certain amount of - how can I put this without offending my US friends - trigger happiness.

In the UK the season is pretty much 11 months of the year. There are far fewer hunters, and each probably take, or attempt to take, a greater number of deer per year that is the average in the US. On average the skill level is likely to he higher in the UK.

There are not as many hunters in the woods in the UK. But there are likely to be plenty of non-hunters in the woods. Therefore safety is paramount. The non hunters will not be wearing orange, so it follows that a "no orange seen=safe to shoot" mindset is something we must avoid.

No offence intended.

djpaintles,

Deerdogs and 1894 have pretty muched covered why we don't need it, but with regards accidental shootings of this nature, I can't actually recall ever hearing of a British stalker shooting somebody they thought was a deer. It may have happened, but its a once in a blue moon things if it has.

We do have the odd accident where somebodies dog knocks over a loaded gun, or Guns on driven pheasant/grouse shoots "pepper" beaters when the take birds which are too low, but nothing that would be improved by a general introduction of hunter orange.

Regards,

Pete

DJ,



Another "contrast" between Amercian and British hunting/stalking styles, which might reflect something on the accident rate.



I would say 95% of British stalkers carry a loaded rifle "slung" on their shoulder as normal stalking mode. A similar number of British stalkers carry and use bino's "consistantly" (every few minutes or less) during their stalk/hunt.



Leaving safety aside for a moment, our seasons mean we have to distiguise between does and anterless bucks at certain times of the year and very often also between different species of deer on the same bit of ground.



All this means that hasty or snaps shots are very much in the minority.



I have never hunted in the States, but my belief is that for a large number of casual hunters, they above practices would not be considered "usual"? Would you consider that a fair comment?



Again no offence intended, just different countries, different circumstances, and different "hunting lore"



Regards,



Pete

I think that your view is a fair and accurate one.

I prepared a lengthy response (too disjointed this early in the morning) but I also believe that most "accidental" shootings aren't at all accidental.

Interesting info guys. You are absolutely right about the number of casual hunters in the States. I also would suggest that the word "casual" is far to kind for a lot of them. I'm afraid we have far too many idiots out in the woods during hunting season. In my home state (oklahoma) the rifle deer season only lasted 9 days and resulted in a harvest of 50,000+ deer. That's way too many in the woods at one time so I'm glad for the orange. On the other hand the more hunters/shooters we have in the country the more votes we have to prevent them from taking away our rights to hunt and shoot so it can be a two-edged sword.
But I can also now see better why you feel the way you do about orange. There is little more irritating than some beurocrat making a new regulation or law to fix something that isn't broken!
Good Hunting and Shooting guys..........DJ