Can anybody tell me what the legal minimum storage requirement is for shotgun cartridges here in the UK?

Also, the same question for expanding heads? I've always assumed that the Police view them the same as loaded ammo, and they would require a similar level of secure storage?

At present I store all my shells, loaded ammo and heads in an old pistol cabinet, but I'd like to free up some additional space to get better organised.

Having said that, my tickets are up for renewal in December and I want to ensure any new storage arrangements won't cause problems during any possible inspection...

Regards,

Pete

I don't want to hijack your thread but i have a question? "expanding heads" soft point bullets

Pete

Shotgun shells should be stored 'securely' - but in reality there is no minimum standard that applies.

Expanding heads (yes TP - here we have them entered on ticket for purchase! )I believe have to be stored under the same control as a loaded round.

Rgds Ian

Ian,

So you think a lockable metal filling cabinet or similar would be acceptable for shotgun shells?

Like many reloaders, the amount of rifle ammo/heads I am authorized to hold is quite high although I rarely have the maximum at any one time.

However, I've been told that I need to have the appropriate secure storage for that theoretical maximum, or risk the FLO scaling my holding back during the renewal process...

Regards,

Pete

Pete

That would be absolutely fine.

Mode B applies:

www.pkc.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/F6E4AD87-D3A3-441E-8A00-A79...AmmunitionTRADER.pdf

Rgds Ian

My FO specified when giving me the certificate that while rifle ammo had to be kept in a locked metal container etc etc, my shotgun ammo could be kept anywhere 'secure'.

He suggested that any cupboard with a small key would do.

Considering most people keep shotgun ammo rolling around on the floor of their vehicle...

O.K. guys,

I've had a few at the local Gasthaus tonight.....(mho - the ususal suspects!)

Secure ammunition storage to me is: the coupla extra rounds in my stalking jacket pocket when I return home after a few drinks in the Pub!

Pete E

This is a very new thing for me. Just what would be a lager supply of expanding heads ammo?

And why are soft point, or expanding bullets controlled? Do you have to lock up your rifle ammo loaded with FMJ's?

I am not being smart or rude, just curious.

Things are obviously very different here in the US.

I just loaded 1400 rounds of .204 Ruger with 32 grain Blitz Kings. And that is just one of many calibers.

Will

So the consensus is that rifle ammunition and expanding projectiles must be kept locked away and that a locked metal filing cabinet satisfies that criteria.

Over here live ammunition (Rifle) powder and primers must be stored to the same level of security as the rifles themselves.

I have an old 4 gun safe which I have outgrown. I fitted some shelves into it and I store all my gear in there.

Expanding heads are not controlled here at all.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
Pete E

This is a very new thing for me. Just what would be a lager supply of expanding heads ammo?

And why are soft point, or expanding bullets controlled? Do you have to lock up your rifle ammo loaded with FMJ's?

I am not being smart or rude, just curious.

Things are obviously very different here in the US.

I just loaded 1400 rounds of .204 Ruger with 32 grain Blitz Kings. And that is just one of many calibers.

Will

Will,

Its not easy to explain the situation over here to an American, simply because the approach to gun ownership is quite different between our two countries. Also, the laws we have now have changed and evolved over the years which means at fist glance, they seem quite strange especially when you don't know the background.

The laws in their present form are largely as a result of knee jerk over reaction to the Dunblane school shooting in 1996.

At present to own a rifle or pistol, you need to be granted a Firearms Certificate (FAC)by the local Police Force and each firearm has to be listed on the FAC. To be granted an FAC , a person must show "good reason" for wanting a firearm and meet certain other criteria. "Deer Stalking" is one good reason, as is being a member of a shooting club plus a host of others..During the application process, the police will come out to interview you about what firearms you want, where you intend to use them (we have no public areas where firearms can be used carte blanche as in the States) and if you have secure storage. They will also discuss how much ammo you want..

If the applicant is a new deerstalker with no previous firearms experience, the Police may "request" he attend a hunter safety type course first, and the applicant may initially be limited to a smaller caliber such as .243win as opposed to say a .338win mag ect..They will also discuss how much ammo you want...

In this situation, if you asked to be able to hold say 1000 rounds and to be able to buy 750 at any one time, some Police Forces will say you don't need it and restrict you to say holding 120 rounds and buying 100 at any one time...In truth, for a new deerstalker in the UK,who is buying ammo not loading his own, thats probably fine for what he needs.

However, if you were applying for a firearm certificate to shoot practical rifle at a local club, the Police would very likely allow you to hold a 1000 rounds or more per caliber providing you could store it securely....

Historically, once you had your certificate, you could buy and use any type of ammo of the appropriate caliber ie either FMJ or "expanding"...If you reloadeded, none of the individual components counted until assembled in to a complete round and components could be bought with out a certificate ie over the counter.

After the Dunblane shooting and all the hype, the law changed to ban "evil" expanding bullets and restrict all shooters to solids or FMJ's. The Government however got it wrong because other existing laws concerning deer and deer stalking said that only expanding ammo can be used to take deer.

Our shooters organisations started lobbying the Government, and the "solution" was that people who held an FAC for deer stalking or some other type of hunting, could have a "condition" added to enable them to buy and use expanding ammo or heads...

The problem is that now, in the eyes of the law, expanding heads are classed in the same way as a loaded round was ie you must have your certificate with you to buy them, they can't be sent through the normal post, and they have to be stored in a secure container...

In addition, after a recent case of a policeman being murdered by a person with an illegally held pistol using hand loaded ammo, the sale of primers has now been restricted to people holding a FAC...

So, currently if a FAC holder is only was permitted to hold 120 rounds and buy 100 at any one time, that does not give you much lee way if the reload there own ammo...Some Forces realize this, and will increase the amount allowable upon request, but with other Forces are not so "helpful"

Although the law is the same throughout England, Scotland and Wales, different Police Forces have different attitudes to civilian gun ownership, and therefore interpret and enforce the law slightly differently hence the reason for a lot of confusion in these matters..

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
So the consensus is that rifle ammunition and expanding projectiles must be kept locked away and that a locked metal filing cabinet satisfies that criteria.

With regards rifle ammo and expanding heads, I don't think the law actually lays down hard specifications, however a metal cabinet or box comparable to the old pistol safes seems to be a common minimum standard.

If you live in a low crime area under a rural Force, I think they might be inclined to allow something of a lower standard like a metal filing cabinet, especially if its located in a secure area like a locked office or utility room...

The trouble is there seems little consistency about the way these requirements are enforced.

Regards,

Pete

Pete the way I understand it is that there is a british standard for section one firearms cabinets.

As for the Shotgun ammo, there is not minimum requirement. Secure could just mean in your house/car etc so long as they are not left lying about in the street When you buy a few thousand shells at a time having to lock it up isn't really an option.

Rgds,
FB

FB,

There is indeed a "British Standard" for section one firearms and ammo cabinets, but as far as I am aware, it has not got any legal basis as such.

As I understand it, Industry and ACPO and one or two other interested Government bodies came up with this "Standard" but its never been enshrined in any of the Firearms Acts, nor is it a legal requirement for any cabinet to have the kitemark on it...

In a previous house I had a pistol safe made from the modified metal housing of a scrapped payphone I had "acquired"

I cut the existing front off with a grinder and had a friend weld a door and hinges on...It was far heavier duty than a typical pistol cabinet and although it was obviously "homemade", the Police were more than happy with it...

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

As I understand it, there is no legal requirement to lock up your shotgun ammo however common sense tells you to keep it as safe as reasonably practical.

"Projectiles designed to expand in a predictable manner" (as defined in law under section 5 of the ammended firearems act) are classed to us Brits in the same league as your average Glock 9mm, AK-47 and Uzi sub machine gun! therefore as I see it even unloaded expanding heads need to be in a BS approved safe. Note that the actual firearms act just talks of ensuring no unauthorised access, but legal pecident and home office guidance essentially means the BS gun safe.

My (4 yr old) shotgun certificate states on the back that only the "shotguns" need to be secured with no mention of ammunition. I'm sure that my old FAC mentioned both firearms and ammo needs to be secured, but interestingly, after a variation, my new FAC (computerised) has no mention at all about security!

Nige

Nige,

There's no legal requirement that you use a BS approved safe for your rifles, let alone your ammo..If George Wallace is still at BASC, ask him..

Think of those folks who have some sort of "reinforced" gun room for a start...Or wall mounted rifle clamps???

I would however agree that often the Police try to "bully" people into buying such safes and in some areas they now "request" applicants have professionally installed intruder alarms in their homes...When George was in the Firearms officer at BASC, he was often quite vocal in dealing with such issues...

regards,

Pete

Pete E

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I find it not only interesting but motivation to stay involved in the preservation of our gun ownership rights here at home.

I lived in Australia for just over a year after getting out of the Military in 92. I could not believe the cost of shooting related anything! Luckily my new bride wanted to move to the USA. I tried to not act too excited.

Having grown up on a Colorado farm with a 100 yard shooting range in the back yard and more ground to hunt than I could walk, I have found that I was very fortunate to have had that environment to grow up in.

My father was an avid shooter. We always had as much ammo as we wished to shoot. Gun and hunters safety was taught at home as well as in our public school. Hunters Education was a mandatory 8th grade class tied to our Physical Education course.

We would pull the screens off the windows in the winter and shoot coyotes from in the house with a .25-06 out in our hay fields.

Do you personaly think that all of the regulation has had the desired impact on crime?

Thanks again and take care.
Will

quote:

Do you personaly think that all of the regulation has had the desired impact on crime?

458Lottfann,

It has been proven that legally held firearms have a negligable impact on gun related crime levels. Since the ban on handguns, the level of Handgun crime is at an all time high. However the clever people behind the legislation, will say that the levels would be even higher if the ban was not in place.

Reasning is nt alway the soundest when dealing with these people as I'm sure you know.

Over all though I don't think we have too bad a time of it. I have actually recently been told (informally) that I can have a pistol as a humane killer. There are provisions in the law for this and i feel more stalker should take advantage, if we ever hope to get the ban lifted. However we tend not to have the desire to own lots of guns here as you perhaps have in the US, so unless it will get a lot of use most stalkers would not require a humane killer..

Rgds,
FB

458Lott,

quote:

Do you personaly think that all of the regulation has had the desired impact on crime?

Interesting question... I would say yes, to a degree and perhaps more so in a historical sense.

Outside of our major cities, gun crime is still pretty rare and if it occurs, it tends to make the headlines.

Historically, legal gun ownership has been restricted such that your average teenage lout has been unable to buy a cheap .22 Saturday Night Special over the counter, nor could anybody with a criminal record.

Conversely, those of us who have been vetted by the Police and got our FAC by default tend to be the law abiding anyway...

Since the early 1980's however, there has been an influx of illegally imported guns, much of it fueled by the inner city drugs trade which is linked to street gangs and organized crime ..

This has seen the use of guns in crime with in the bigger cities sky rocket. We also have a strange situation in that the use of guns among young teenage gang members is disproportionately high...

It seems that either the Law or Home Office sentencing recommendations meant that a "Youth" of say 14 caught carrying or using an illegal firearm would receive a more more lenient sentence than say an "adult" of 19...The gang leaders capitalized on this, and started arming their younger gang members and using them to commit armed crime...very often this crime was committed as a rite of passage into the gang...

So now we've got to the stage where gun crime is dramatically increasing in the inner cities and I think it will only get worse.

Maybe new laws would help, but usually any such moves are hi-jacked by the rabid anti's who simply want to ban legally held guns, rather than focus new legislation on where the actual problem is.

Over the years our laws have become gradually more restrictive on legal gun ownership and this is obviously not curing the problem. I now feel that perhaps now or in the near future, it might be time for something radically different, such as introducing legalised, licensed CCW permits as happens in parts of the States but I doubt it will ever happen...

Regards,

Pete

Interesting issue Pete.
We are faced with much of the same development here in Norway, but naturally in a much smaller scale. The trends by the way, are the same.

The same goes for the politicans reaction when guns/firearms are used by criminals... They yell; thighten the access and reduce the number of firearms!

The only one affected by thightening the gun laws, are of course the the law abiding / certified hunters and competetion shooters

That said.. if one behave and have a clean record, posession of firearms is usually a pretty straight forward case.


About storage of live ammo; if locked up in a metal cabinet or container, will it not become a bomb in case of fire ?

We are instructed to keep the live ammo and powder / primers under lock and key, but not nessecary in a metal container of any sort.

But again, rules, and not at least interpretation of the law, differ from region to region here as well.

quote:

About storage of live ammo; if locked up in a metal cabinet or container, will it not become a bomb in case of fire ?

Arild,

Please don't confuse the issue with common sense!

I would tend to agree with you..

I am not a black powder shooter, but I believe the latest regulations for black powder do call for it to be stored in a lockable wooden box with no steel fittings on the inside..

Regards,

Pete

It would seam to me that the punishment for committing a crime with a gun. Particularly an illegally possessed gun should result in the death penalty.

What would happen to law abiding citizen if they shot and killed an intruder or rapist during the commitment of a crime in England? Would they be treated as a criminal or would they be let about their lives?

The consequence of the crime has to be unbearably heavy. To the point that in the risk of being caught, the convict would rather die than be brought in. This would weed out a huge portion of would be crooks that truly have no guts or spine.

Here in the U.S. we have this problem. Even when a murderer gets the death penalty it takes 15 to 20 years for the punishment to be applied.

We spend Billions to house and care for the worst of the worst in our society. We pay with money and grief when they commit a crime, we pay with our taxes to have the police to find and arrest them, we pay with our taxes to both defend and prosecute them, then we pay with our taxes to house, feed, clothe them, give them better medical care than many law abiding Americans can afford, and try to educate them. Only for a high percentage of them to be released, and start the cycle again.

Our local government now is spending a millions of dollars to put GPS trackers on what they deemed the worst of the worst sex offenders. These animals are so dangerous that the police want to know where they are at all times. I say if they are truly so dangerous what the hell are they doing roaming among us? Put them down like the rabid animals they are or lock them up until death.

There is an easy answer to this issue. We just don’t have a government or a society that has the stomach or will to do the right thing. Most of these animals are not worth saving.

Just think of all the good things that could be done with the wasted tax dollars we spend on these animals that prey on our society. I put gangs at the top of the list to be hunted down like coyotes. Actually I have a lot more respect for a coyote than any gang banger.

I know that the likely hood of me ever needing to use a firearm to defend my self is slim. But I still carry my Kimber 1911 with me in my vehicle and out in the desert all the time. I still have not gotten my CCW but that is in the works for this winter.

Best of luck on your fight to keep and bear arms. Thanks for sharing your experiences with me.

Will

458Lottfan

The law allows you to repel an intruder with "reasonable force"

There was a high profile case of a farmer shooting and killing one of a pair of intruders at his remote farm house. He was eventually convicted of manslaughter (I think) and served something like 5 years in jail.

The problem was that the incident was not straight forward it was determined he shot the guy in the back as he was trying to get out of the farm building..He also never called the Police or Ambulance and the guy bled to death before he was found in the morning..There were also other factors which did not help the farmers case as well...

I don't have any sympathy with the guy who was killed, but as the law stands the farmer probably crossed the line in what could be considered "reasonable force"...

In another case a few years back, a chap shot an intruder as he was coming up stairs in his home..IIRC the householder warned the intruder while he was still at the foot of the stairs and eventually shot him when the guy was 3/4 the way up...he said he thought the intruder had a knife...As I recall, the Police definitely treated the householder as a criminal at first, but the case against him was eventually dropped after the forensic evidence confirmed his story.

In the past I've used a Browning Hi-Power quite a bit, and owned a CZ-75 but got rid of it when I no longer had a use for it, and from then on I've shot mostly rifles..

Regards,

Pete

When I was living in Brisbane, Australia the local gun shops all had warning posters that Read something like this.

(If you intended to purchase a firearm for self defense in New South Whales "do not do it" To kill any one! even a perpetrator of a crime against you or a family member is murder and you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.)

What kind of government willingly makes their citizens criminals for defending their own lives? What if you come home and three 250 lb men are raping your wife or daughter? I know I would take the murder charge!!!!

In my experience Police report crime and look for suspects after the fact. But they rarely get to stop a crime. Yet governments try to lead us to depend on them for our safety.

Not me. Thank God I am an American Country Boy!!

Lovely phrase that sums it all up..........

Better to be judged by twelve - than carried by six!

Think on!

Rgds Ian

Here's my take on this thread.. shotgun cartridges have no legal storage requirement beyond common sense ie not the bottom oven of the rayburn, or on casual display.
Loaded rifle ammo is under lock and key along with rifle bolts/seperate from rifle.
The expanding bullet heads are somewhere in the garage and until loaded of little consequence.
As for the "good ol' US way of life... I occasionally nail a fox with a 243 from my bedroom window, regularly snipe rabbits with 22wmr from an upstairs window.
When I was a child I spent countless hours shooting grey squirrels and woodpigeon with airguns and shotguns from upstairs windows....
my main claim too fame? I once shot a rabbit in Johnny Morrises' ( a well known TV naturalist) vegetable garden with a 12 bore at 5am in the morning while Mr and Mrs were asleep indoors!
I also test most of my reloads within 200 yards of where I sleep each night...so the UK isn't all bad and deprived in shooting terms!!

Have just had my address and issueing authority changed and I am sure they have reduced the number of heads I can posses, now am entitled to buy 200 and store 300 of 6mm and 7mm.

Stupidly I have been granted to store 400 of .22BR and 400 of .223 - therefore 800 .22 heads!!!

What is a common amount of heads allowed to buy and store for other areas, given that I homeload. Sure I used to have buy 400 and store 600?