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I have a new example for the idiotic regulation of our legislator.  The newest order of the new gun law is, it´s not allowed to take more as 5 hanguns into a safe with a weigth below 200 kg ( The old order was 10 handguns).If you have more as five, your safe´s weight must be over 200kg. This is a problem for all the gunowner, how life in a flat. Myself, for example, life in the 4th floor in a 44 square metre flat. There´re many unanswered questions, about the statics, the space for the safe, etc. The other new idiotic order is, when you drive to the shooting range or to hunting, the weapons must be carry in a locked case and the case must be bound with a chain or a steel wire in the car. The same is with the ammunition. It must be in a seperate locked case in the car. If you do against this orders and you will catched by the police, you loose your gun and hunting licences. This are many little, new intensifications of the new gun law about the creeping way to disarm all the gunowning citizens. I know about many shooters how be fed up with this regulations and sold all the guns. This is the sence about this new gun law. The gunowner should loose the fun for shooting and guncollecting and so they sell here guns. I see a very bad and gloomy future for the legal gunowner in germany.  With the best wishes Martin | ||
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Ditto!!! I had to sell two rifles to be able to afford a gun locker that meets the standards set by the government authorities! When I was in Canada, for grocery shopping we used to let the Pickup standing in the shopping mall parking lot - engine running, rifles loaded in the back of the truck next to a freshly killed moose. All that people would do was ask about how our hunt was and congratulate us on a full freezer... Well, Germany is not the Canadian Bush so I guess we will have to live with it and make our voices heard for example by joining gunowners' foremost lobby organisation, the FWR (sort of German NRA)! I can't stress enough the importance of getting as many votes bundled together in organisations of this kind so that shooters and hunters will finally speak as one group to be taken seriously by politicians! By the way, the world's a village ain't it - I happen to be from Passau...  Cheers, elwood. | |||
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These regulations are crazy. They only dis-arm honest citizens. Way back in high school, we would have shotguns on the gunrack, in our trucks, in plain view. Do that know and go to jail! When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults! | |||
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Big Bore fan sorry to hear about your tightening gun laws..... However the following quotes from posts may illustrate what is in MHO lax or slack gun safety....
 The world has moved on significantly from "way back when" ever heard of columbine?ok you should, in a perfect world be allowed to do as you wish with regards to firearms safety and security,but we dont live in a perfect world,any accidents or incidents resulting from negligent care or security with firearms reflects badly on us all. Roebuck222 | |||
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Martin, Is this a new Federal (Bundes) regulation in Germany, and where is this documented?? This is news to me, and I would certainly like (need) to know. It used to be, that you were quite simply not allowed to leave your car unsupervised if you carried guns in it... From what you write, it sounds like this is the new regulation for both handguns and rifles. Is that a correct interpretation?? All these new rules and regulations are a total waste of time. They only serve the purpose of allowing politicians to portray themselves to the voting public as if they act to prevent this or that crime, when in reality there will be absolutely zero effect on crime statistics from rules like this. Also, the German bureaucracy has a love for rules and regulations (see where the country has been heading economically for the last 20 years). Regulations like this provide the multitude of public employees with a "raison d'etre", a guarantee that their numbers will forever swell and they will have cosy jobs forever and ever. All paid for by the happless tax payer, who sees little effect for his hard earned tax $$$, and wonders why taxes continually have to rise?? On an international level (the US somewhat being the exception), all the new gun restrictions serve to push up the regulatory level from one country to the next in a seesaw motion. Today your country enacts tougher gun regulations, immediately the anti-gun lobby in the neighbouring country has an argument to tighten regulations at home, and the spiral of meaningless and ineffective regulation continues. Once a regulation, however ineffective, is on the books, you can never get rid of it. Case in point, all the totally senseless caliber restrictions in some European countries. If there was ever a reason to disallow military calibers for hunting purposes, then certainly that reason has long since disappeared. A .300 RUM is allowed, but a .308 Win is not, where is the logic in terms of crime prevention and safety for the general public?? And yet, we are bound to live with these meaningless rules for ever and ever, because rules are NEVER taken off the book... It is a sad reality in Europe (and other parts of the World) these days. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Martin, never heard of this new law. Ok the new gun law say you have to use gun safes in a new protection group (B or better 0) and some weeks ago the police controlled my gun save, but the law you mentioned is unknown to me. Is it only for Bavaria? On Monday I will telephone with the "untere Jagdbehörde" for more informations. But I think, I really can't believe that. Burkhard | |||
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I telephoned with my 2 gunsmiths. They never heard about that. Fact is that the new European law for gun safes (EN 1143-1) means 5 rifles lilited in grade A safes (the hinges are outside) More than 5 rifles grade B or 0. Handguns must be in an sepearate safe inside the safe. Transportation of guns (to the range, gunsmith etc.) the guns and the ammo must be stored separatately in the car. Burkhard | |||
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Burkhart, my dad is gunsmith and he said it´s a new part in the revision about the transport and storage of weapons in the new gun order ( Überarbeitung der neuen Waffenverordnung zum Thema Waffenaufbewahrung und Transport). The problem is that every country makes here own special orders and interpret the order how they want. Bavaria is a special example for this (madness). Martin | |||
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roebuck222, Sadly the attitude you have is exactly why the EU will soon be firearms free. England will soon be sharp knife free even !!! Its not about the "good old days", its about robustly exercising your God given rights to be free, and armed to protect that freedom. If one was to take each violation of a right and use it to curtail that right, as you use the school shooting example I would submit that soon there would be no rights at all. The most glareing example is the use of the press by Hitler in WW II to kill millions of Jews. Following your line of thinking we should ban news outlets of all kinds because words kill, and indeed have killed far more people than a madman in a school with a gun. Both incidents are regretable but neither should be a reason to eliminate a right. If you feel so much guilt about owning a gun that you feel the need to salve that guilt by "giving up" somthing to feel better prehaps you need take up another sport. Do you feel the need to curtail your driving when a drunk kills a family with a car ? Its not the tool used to commit a crime but the person committing the crime. You need to celebrate and relish your firearms ownership, not feel guilty about it. The Gov. has succeeded in the first step in disarming you...................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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WTF are you talking about you clown!! If you think that leaving loaded firearms in pickup trucks or anywhere else for that matter is best practise,then I would suggest that it is you sir who has the attitude problem. A short while ago on the Australian forum,one of our shooting colleagues left his gun in his truck over night...result stolen gun,he anticpated being in a world of shit with the authorities...is it worth it? I would suggest not. I am not talking about the curbing of the liberty to possess guns here,I thought that would be quite clear (evidently not...at least in southern WV anyway) The fact is it is incidents arising from negligence,on the part of shooters that (wrongly) give is all a bad name...in europe firearms safety is a integral part of the learning of the sport...probably not so from what I glean in the US judging by the number of hunters who shoot each other in your woods each year...(hence your need for orange jackets) there is not a deer behind every rustling bush. ok so there, it is if you think firearms safety and security is of no consequence,then that speaks volumes. Roebuck222 | |||
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222, You miss the point. Firearms and freedom go hand in hand and your coments on gun safety are totally irrelevant to the topic being discussed, a topic of enormous importance if you value your freedom. Also, I have my doubts as to the guns actually being loaded. I beleive he meant loaded in the truck as in "loading my gear into the truck". Much is often lost in small details when comunicating in a languager that is not your primary language. | |||
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roebuck222, "The world has moved on" my ass. The world has moved backward, thanks to "progressives" like you seem to be. | |||
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roebuck222, I'm sorry if I hit a nerve. I realize that the concept of total freedom is difficult for some from GB to understand. We here southern West Virginia understand that we have God given rights, not rights granted by the Crown. Part of that freedom was taking our varmint rifles to school so we could hunt after school. We would even show them to our principal ( headmaster ) and he would hunt with us from time to time. There was never any trouble with the guns at school. Sadly that has changed our Colombine and your Dunnblaine ( sorry for spelling ). Also rifles in trucks are very common here, along with that freedom comes responsibility, to keep them secure and safe. We manage to do that quite well. It is understood that trying to steal a rifle out of a truck will probably get you shot. You see we can carry pistols concealed here also. Tell me why a public display of firearms of any kind is bad. Freedom is like a muscle, the more you exercise it the stronger it gets. My greatest hope is your situation changes and your countrymen someday have the right to carry a firearm anywhere anytime they wish. And the criminal element there understands that death is a real possibility when they invade your home. If that makes me a clown so be it. Tomorrow this clown is going to the range and shooting my full auto M-16. I will carry a pistol to live up to my responsibility as a husband and father to protect my family. I hope someday you are able to do the same................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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No not really...if guns are not safely secured when not in use and they fall into the wrong hands...this leads to knee jerk reactions from those who know little of guns and leads to even more stringent measures being applied to us.
well argued there sir,a well thought out riposte,keep up the good work.
MMmmmm yes,I'm sure lots of groups claim that very same "right"round the world for their own ends.
Truely sorry to hear that you live in a society in which you have to be armed to carry out your responsibility as husband and father....it does sound a bit like a line from a hollywood script though. The EU does not have a gun totin' culture like that of the US,and most likely never will. If the people who have the authority to own firearms dont look after them securely it leads to a ever upwardly spiral of draconian measures imposed on the rest of us...thats just fact. Roebuck222 | |||
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The biggest threat to gun ownership in Norway (and I suppose in the EU and USA as well) are the shooters and hunters accepting that "public safety" is a valid reason to make new laws restricting gunownership. The people accepting such an argument are in fact doing more harm than those non-shooters/hunters that want to ban all ownership of guns. The "safety"-argumet will (logically) lead only one way - the total end of civilian gunownership. No guns allowed = no guns "causing" death or injury. | |||
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roebuck222, Sir, first who gives you your right to own firearms ? One would infer from your post that you view me as a militant terrorist claiming Gods direction in owning a firearm. You see your right to own firearms as a privledge granted by a King or Queen. As you are seeing what is granted by the Gov. can be taken by the Gov. It is plain to me that you cannot grasp the concept of true freedom. The basic tennant of liberty here in the US is that ALL MEN are created equal, no Kings,Queens,Dukes ect.ect. Does it work without problems ? No, but it beats everything else. I admit words fail me here, but no man is above another and one man cannot grant basic rights to another, those only come from God. It would appear from the recent crime stats that it is you who live in a country where a man should accept responsibility for protecting his family. I am referring to the current rash of home invasion robberies in GB. You seem to want to ingnore a basic fact of life, that since caveman days other cavemen have coveted your meat and women and have tried to take them away. Pretending that it isn't so is shirking your duty and responsibility as a man and husband. I find it shocking that you expect someone else to protect your family. The police only show up after the damage is done. You think lax weapon storage is the reason you are losing your gun rights ??? The "gun totin' culture" you refer to is simply freedom being exercised. As we pass more and more concealed carry laws guess what is happening to our violent crime rate, its going down. As it has been stated before an armed society is a polite society. Dear sir, you have been oppressed too long, that or you are a socialist. In any event you have fallen for all the BS thrown about by the liberal dogooders who want to lead you about by the nose fixing all of your problems for you. " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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I am not living in Germany anymore, so I may be not completely up to date. With the new gun law, there is plenty discussion and insecurity about the details. To my knowledge, guns must be transported unloaded, and not instantly accessible. Having the gun in the trunk of your car in a gun bag is fine, IMO. However, you must assure that the gun is not stolen. Leaving your gun in the unattended car may be trouble - e.g., how to go for a pee while travelling? In that case, using a hard gun case secured to the car by a cable is not a bad idea. Fuhrmann | |||
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JJ, what is (if any) the criteria that must be met by Joe public in the US before they are allowed to own a gun of any decription? I do believe that there are some people who should not be given access to catapults nevermind guns. The basic criteria for rifle/shotgun ownership in the UK are. 1.A need for them (basically target shooting or sporting reasons. 2.Being of sound mind and character....you must give police permission to access medical records if they so wish. 3.security of firearms storage. The UK is a very small country compared to the US,has no great tradition of gun ownership and no public hunting lands. I dont feel it is MY RIGHT to have a gun,why would I? If I fail to meet any of the criteria at anytime then the firearms license gets revoked,that seems fair to me. The majority of people in the UK if they so wished could meet and exceed the basic criteria and own a gun,they choose not to. As to the phrases "god given rights" and "they can have my gun....when they take it from my cold dead hands" (seen on a t-shirt) what is that really saying? When Thomas Hamilton (hopefully burning in hell)slaughtered all those school kids in Dunblane,a law was passed by our democratically elected parliament that banned hand guns.What was the owners of legally held hand guns supposed to do exactly?....go for the "cold dead hands option"? I dont think so. The figures are simple....most people dont own guns and never will. Most people dont know or want to know about guns and never will. So the majority will have their way in the end,no matter how much we peacefully protest against it. To say again I dont apologise for owning firearms,but the fact remains disreputable behaviour and standards on the part of the few affects all shooters. Roebuck222 | |||
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Roebuck says,
He expect his government (those who have the authority to own firearms) to look after him securely. I don't think such whimpering, socialist EU-type bullshit was so rampant in the days when Scotland fought the English tooth and nail to try and save their country. Perhaps it was, perhaps there were lukewarm defenders of rights like Roebuck even then, perhaps that's why Scotland lost. | |||
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So You refute this? and what do you actually know about scottish history....watching Braveheart doesn't count. The US has brain washed itself into believing its own propaganda that it is the best (as opposed to merely the most powerful) country in the world.....dont believe the hype. Roebuck222 | |||
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I know that Scotland has sheep and you appear to be one of them. You deceive yourself greatly if you think that government is trustworthy enough to delegate unto them the protection of our families and rights. The Government, any government is the number one threat to individual rights and basic human dignity because it is the natural order of things for the govt to grow and the people to be subjugated more and more. Oh, and here is something I learned from the movie you mentioned: You guys used to let your lords (govt) sleep with your wife on the wedding night. Boy, I bet those husbands wished they had not given up their weapons. I´ll bet the cold dead fingers thing didn´t sound too ridiculous to them at that moment. But you know what; all of this is a waste of time because it surely falls on deaf ears. I wish you the best and hope that a good man with a gun will be around to help you when you need it. | |||
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I'm afraid I don't believe in "God Given Rights"...at any one point in time we only have the rights "granted" by the rest of the society we live in. The situation becomes even more confusing when large segments of your society worships different gods as occurs today in most Western societies. History shows our rights are not static, but ebb and flow according to circumstances and the society we live in and the resolve of the minority concerned to fight for them either politically or physically... If anybody thinks I am wrong, think about the instututionalised persecution and lack of rights both native Americans and black Americans suffered until fairly recently?? Where were their God given rights?? where was their protection under Consistution? In more recent times, what happened to the rights of those Japanese Americans interned without trial at the beginning of WW2 or those thought to be Communists by Macarthy or those held held without trial by various Government Agencies in the fight against terror? Lest any one think this post is an anti American one, I could list similar infringments of so called basic human rights by just about any Government, organised Religion or society... | |||
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John "HOT" air, Put your cards on the table..straight question. The laws of your country change,and you are no longer allowed to legally own a hand gun. what would you do? well lets hear it big mouth,come out blastin' like Yosemite Sam? yeah of course you would...or would you? You might end up looking down the barrel of a gun toted by some hard bastards from the royal marines or Parachute regiment. ala the Malivinas straight answer required no bluff chest thumping and retoric from you or any of the other tough talkin' key board commando's here and for your information and those also stupid enough to believe scottish history can be summed up by the "braveheart" story....scottish history is a lot more convoluted than you could ever possibly comprehend. I think its time for some of you to get over your ego's Roebuck222 | |||
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Looks like everyone from the UK is a bleeding-heart socialist. Well, the peasants anyway. No wonder all their various little countries are so third-worldish. | |||
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I LIVE IN SMALL TOWN IN CORDOBA ARGENTINA HERE ON MAY1RST EVERYBODY GOES TO HUNT PARTRIGE ,THERE ARE 3 HUNTING CLUBS HERE AND MOST OF THE FAMILIES HAVE GUNS EVEN ASSAULT RIFLES BUT NOW OUR LEFT WING WILL TRY TO STOP THIS ,AND LISTEN TO ME WE WILL NOT SELL OUR GUNS WE WILL FIGTH BACK AND NEVER NEVER SURRENDER OUR GUNS.THE ONU IS MAKING PLANS TO DISARN CIVILIANS WORLWIDE IS TIME FOR A WORLDWIDE NRA.JUAN www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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No, not really. Just being realistic. I presume you and yours want to survive / subsist? It really is the law of the jungle. The powerful can do anything they want. The state, or their agents / sponsors can, on any pretext they wish, confiscate your property, imprison you or kill you. Examples abound, cross time and cultures, but lets restrict ourselves to the last one hundred years or so: Armenian geonocide 1915 - ?1919? artificial famine created in the Ukraine in the 1930s; European Jewry genocide 1941-1945; Ethnic cleansing on the partition of India when India gained independence in 1947?; Chinese Cultural Revolution - terror of the Red Guards, 1960s; Ethnic cleansing in Cyprus in 1974?; The disappeared in Chile and Argentina during the 1970s and 1980s under military governments; Ethnic cleansing in the Former Yugoslavia late 1980s through to ?current times? ; Rwandan Genocide early part of the new century; Persecution of Black Christian Africans by Muslim Africans /Arabs in the southern part of the Sudan; Etc; My point? If the state or powerful interest groups within your country want something you have got, they will take it from you and there is precious little you can do about. See opening paragraph. So, please lets not hear anymore about Shane strapping on his gun belt and riding into town. Yes, The Warsaw Ghetto fought the German Army in the streets. And they were annilhiliated. Soldiers follow orders.... | |||
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Pete E, You raise some good points, but I would submit that although the wrongs were committed as you point out they were temporary. Their rights given by God were hampered by man. Thats the case everywhere. I think all men have the same rights but society structures those rights, it does not grant them. " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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roebuck222, I went back and read several of your previous posts. It is clear to me you are decidedly anti-American. Thats fine. I give up trying to explain freedom to you. When you have lived your life as a subject true freedom is a scary concept. When your gov. takes your 222 rifle away for the greater good of the people, and its going to happen, will your response be as it was in your post to me ? The most amazing thing you have said to date is you don't feel you have a right to own a firearm !!!! I admit I am a little slow at times so please explain why you WOULDN'T have that right. I'll be hunting in your beautiful country for stag in 06. maybe I'll gain a better perspective on the situation then..........JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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This is a typical anti gun tactic. Ask a question and then answer it yourself and portray gun owners as trigger happy madmen in the process. Response to the taking of any right or rights is in proportion to the gravity of the offense to your or your families dignity, or God forbid, physical integrity. I believe you are aware of some of the options in the scenario that you present but I will list some for you anyway. 1) If you can not legally own a handgun then own a rifle. 2) If you can not own any weapons legally, then do as many have for centuries, own them illegally, and hide them in case they become necessary to defend yourself or your family 3)Work from within the system to restore the legality of firearm possession. 4) Leave and go somewhere that you can exercise your God given rights. This last point brings me to Pete’s comment about not believing in God given rights. I think JJ answered well but I can´t resist chiming in. "WE HOLD THESE RIGHTS TO BE SELF EVIDENT" I think this says it better than "God given", even though it means essentially the same thing. The atrocities that Pete mentions are denials of these rights by the powerful, but the reason we shudder when we recall them is because we all in our hearts recognize the injustice, and in so doing recognize the truth and existence of these "God given", "self evident" rights. | |||
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John Hot air, J Joke Miller et al Oh you are real tough talking guys 'aint ya hiding behind your keyboard. You may well own a rifle or shotgun if you aren't allowed hand guns....I do. You may have a illegally held handgun....jail time if caught. Work within the system and rule of rule to restore firearms privelages...we do so strive. Go elsewhere...blah blah god given blah blah. The point is.... bad boys,bad boys whatca gonna ta do? whatca gonna do when they come for you...? ultimately you are going to hand the hand guns over and obey the law over suffer the full weight of the consequences.... I dont believe any of you would have the balls to back up your tough talking and lock 'in load when the representatives of your lawfully elected government drop by to pick up your hand guns. Sirs to sum it up you are all full of shit. Roebuck222 | |||
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None of the later stages of this has anything to do with hunting and is supremely boring as well as ill mannered. It's something we've avoided thus far in this forum.... | |||
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222, yes sir, you told me alright........................................................................................................................................................................JJ " venator ferae bestiae et aquae vitae " | |||
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1894mk2 The whole thread relates to firearms security,which obviously has a bearing on the grant of firearms permits etc,which obviously vary from country to country,yes there have been several different views expressed,with give and take on each side of the debate,if this is too hot for you to handle then please please feel free to ignore this thread,nobody is forcing you to read it. regards Roebuck222 ps you 'aint the moderator. | |||
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Although not directly related to hunting, I don't have any problem with discussions of this sort here although it could be moved to a more appropriate forum if a majority of members requested it so. This particular forum has always been a well mannered forum and I would ask folks to continue that tradition. Differing points of view are fine and are to be expected, but general flamming and name calling add nothing to the discussion... Regards, Pete | |||
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oh no not the majority rule again  I'm loading for bear...  seriously though pete its a great forum,and resonably civilised too. Just have to educate the colonials once in a while. Roebuck222 | |||
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John, Assuming we both believe in the same god, where does God grant Americans the right to bear arms? Certainly not in the Bible???..If you say in the Constitution, I would say that was a political document composed by men and a document which also goes to some length to seperate Government (and its laws?) from the Church...Its also a document that the authors saw may need to be changed as time progressed as they were far sighted enough to include a process for that change?? interboat, Not everybody who has a different perspective on life to yours is a "socialist"! If I have one criticism of many Americans, especially many ring wing Americans, it's that they fail to realise that not everybody in the world wants to be American or live the American way. I think this "blindness" is one why America is often percieved as an "international bully"...I truely believe that this desire to export the American way of life is often done with the best of intentions but the missionary zeal that comes with it puts people off at the very beginning. John's post to Roebuck about explaining what "true freedoms" are is a good example of that attitude. I maybe wrong, but I don't think John has ever lived in the UK, while his previous comments about the Crown leads me to believe he has no understanding of the relationship between the Monarchy and Parliament in the UK either as it is today or how it has evolved through history. So for John to compare the two countries as far as "true freedoms" goes is not really viable.. No flames or insults intend here, just observation... Regards, Pete | |||
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One of the fundimental differences between British and American attitudes on freedom seems to be the role of firearmswith in our society. I and I would say most Brits, don't see the Government endorsed right to own firearms as central to our freedom. I am guessing most Brits would see such things as the right to a democraticaly elected Government and the right of free speech as being more central to the issue of freedom. Personally I can not forsee the need to take up arms against my Government as long as I live in a democracy and retain the right to vote. If the elected Government of my Country did something so terrible that I would consider taking up arms against them, I would rather emigrate, as I could not live in a society which endorsed such a government... Regards, Pete | |||
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Pete, very succinctly put,to say the very least. Roebuck222 | |||
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