Hi
I am just getting my Firearms Certificate re-issued by the Metropolitan police and the FEO is trying to restrict it in this manner. NB: this is not a renewal, my ticket is valid until 2011!

I believed this was just a formality and that he couldn't restrict me furhter at this point without good reason...

Any thoughts?


5. The .375 H&H and ammunition to which this certificate relates shall be used for DEER as prescribed under the Deer (Firearms etc.) (Scotland) Order 1985 on land in Scotland, and zeroing on ranges or any land in Great Britain deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.


Cheers

Gabriel

Another quote I am not sure I agree with:

"Some of the conditions given to you by Lothian & Borders police are not available on our system, mainly because the firearms laws in Scotland are different."

Hi Bog,

I would seek advice on how to respond from BASC. I suspect they would respond to the Met on your behalf if necessary.

Regards,

Tim

I sent an email referring to the Home Office guidelines and my access to large deer species in England etc but do not intend to give up easily....

Are you a BASC member? If not you are losing out on their very pro-active Firearms Department. My certificate says:

"The .243 rifle and the .270 rifle and ammunition may also be used for shooting deer and for zeroing on ranges, on land on which the holder has lawful authority to shoot".

So, yes, unless this is a fairly new authority to shoot deer?

Boghoss

a) You have the relevent paragraph of the HO Guidelines to police for quotation purposes.

b) You have access to the larger species mentioned in the said guidelines.

c) You have paper proof of such access.

You are doubtless curious as to exactly which UK deer conditions do not appear on their system - which presumably complies with the Home office guidance!!

Mentioning this in the same breath as BASC ....should sort out this small misunderstanding!

Rgds Ian

How long have you had your FAC?

I have had my FAC since 2006.

Here is the officer's response.

"In reply to your email, I must firstly start by saying the re-issue of the firearm certificate is not merely a formality; I must ensure that the weapons and the conditions on it are correct. Your perfectly correct in saying am not experienced with dealing with the .375 calibre and that is why before making a decision I have read through the Home Office "Firearms: Guidance to the Police 2002" and spoken to and received advice from 2 senior firearms enquiry officers who are also certificate holders. Its of our understanding that there is a number of locations in Scotland that is suitable for firing .375. I have read through your file and cannot see where you have any permission to shoot deer in England using your .375.

I will only recommend the condition to allow you to use your .375 H&H in England if you can provide me with the name and address of land within England that you have permission to shoot on. This land must also be deemed suitable for .375 by the Chief Officer of Police for that area. If you are unable to do so then the conditions as stated in my last email will be printed onto your new FAC."

do they make you go through this bullshit every time, also with new buys etc.?

peter

You need to show a good reason for each new purchase.

This fellow readily admitted that he hadn't even heard of a .375 and is obviously scared of taking responsibility for it.

Despite repeated queries, he cannot tell me what exactly makes a .375 more dangerous than a .270.

Unfortunately the problem is the wide disparity between forces in the UK. My previous FEO in Scotland was very reasonable indeed.

Boggy,

It sounds like you're dealing with a Numskull. I would reiterate my previous comment and go straight to BASC - don't mess about engaging in correspondence.

Best wishes and good luck.

Tim

Boggy

BASC is the way forward. They love to get stuck into bullsh** I mean problems like this.

Thanks for the support and tips fellas.

I am ashamed to say, I am not currently a BASC member. This situation will change soon.

In any case, I also contacted my old FEO in Edinburgh who gave me full support.

A few well-worded emails resulted in this reply:

"Land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated" is a standard part of the condition, but can be removed and as you’re a clearly a very experienced shooter I see no reason why it should not be remove. So I will amend the condition so it is removed on both condition 1 & 5 of your FAC.

Just so am we are clear my only concern is, for me to condition .375 H&H for shooting in England , you must be able to provide me with land in England which you have permission to shoot on. I have no concern with its security or with you having good reason to process it.
I have rechecked your file, and still have not come across this land in England where you have permission to shoot your .375 H&H. I will put the file on hold until the 17th December 07, to give you time to nominate land in England over which you have permission to shoot your .375 H&H."

This is clearly a different tune from the emails you can see above.

If I were a REAL A-hole, I would blame them for losing my permission letter which clearly allows me to shoot deer in England. Instead I will just send them a new copy 'in due course'.

It is funny how he dropped the 'security concerns' fairly swiftly...

Cheers guys!

As the saying goes "don't let them grind you down".

Sorry to be "harsh" but as you are not a member of BASC I hope that you know might see why it IS useful. Also BASC has land in England, on which members may stalk, and proof of a confirmed booking for this will give you that required "land in England".

Whilst I can understand anyone who target shoots not being a member of the British NRA (I would not give the British NRA a penny of my money - ever) I can't understand why anyone who shoots live quarry is not a member of BASC.

Please take this the right way, no offence is meant, but you should be ashamed! Does this mean that when you stalk you are, effectively, un-insured?

1- I used to be a member of BASC but failed to renew.

2- I am fully insured with the British Deer Society, of which I am also a member. There are many ways of getting shooting insurance.

3- I am a member of the Countryside Alliance.

P.S. Even if I were a BASC member, I would be loathe to run to them directly. I am pleased you don't need a 'team' to help assert your rights...yet!

enfieldspares

I very much doubt BASC would provide a letter giving permission for a member to use a .375H&H on their stalking scheme in England; potentially it would open up too much of a can of worms between the FC (who's ground it is) and the local FLO.

Regards,

Pete

Hi all, this is fairly typical of the kind of nonsense that we are all having to put up with when it comes to larger calibres (larger that is than .30). I recently had to explain to a FLO what a 6mm remington was and that a 9.3x62 has the same case as a 30-06. If the fear of the unknown is preventing the FLOs from doing their job then I'm sure we will soon all be restricted to .243 and nothing else. I know that there are some good FLOs out there but every time I talk to someone who is having a renewal or a variation they all say the same thing i.e. the FLO is operating from a very poor knowledge base. Now I know that most of us would not be able to do our jobs if we did not have sound knowledge of our subjects: what makes an FLO any different? Also I can't for the life of me see the merit in the BASC submitted list of calibres in the 2002 guidelines. It was immediately out of date, too restrictive and innacurate. The trouble with most forces is that they don't read 'guidelines' they read 'how it must be'.
Herein lies the problem.
Best of luck with your .375 and don't take no for an answer.

Yes, I agree with ZAITSEV, indeed the whole thing is becoming stupid. I have a 270 for deer and asked if I could also have it for foxes. Oh no! We will give you an authority for a 243 as well! So I now have TWO fullbore rifles when I would have been quite happy with one!

quote:

Originally posted by zaitsev:
The trouble with most forces is that they don't read 'guidelines' they read 'how it must be'.
Herein lies the problem.

Problem in this instance is the opposite - the HO guidelines to Police actually suggest that .375 may be used for 'larger' species in the UK. FLO is not following guidelines as written in black and white!

rgds Ian

Hi Ian, hope you are well. You're absolutely right of course in that the guidance states that the .375 may be used for larger species in the uk. However there are two conflicting pieces of info in the guidance: one is the aforementioned calibre table (which disclaims suitability of .366 etc for deer) and also the fact that you have to prove initial 'good reason' to hold the larger calibre in the first instance. This may be an overseas hunt or the presence of boar on your land etc. What vexes me is that after proving the initial good reason a firearm suddenly becomes magicaly suitable whereas before it wasn't? I'm afraid that this makes no sense to me at all. A rifle shot is either safe or unsafe regardless of calibre. Its down to the person driving the thing. I'm due to have this very same argument with my darling firearms team shortly so I'll post with how I get on.

Best regards

Gareth

1. there is no legal maximum calibre for deer in the U.K.
2. Most police forces in the U.K have the 375 in their minds as a maximum calibre.
3.If you have permission for a piece of land there is no reason why you can`t have the 375......unless your firearms officer doesn`t like it, doesn`t know anything about it, or is just a plain a**hole.
I have 458 open ticket for deer and pigs with soft point ammunition anywhere in the U.K. My certificate states..
"The 458 rifle and ammunition shall be used for boar and deer control on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot and for zeroing on ranges."
I`ve had this on my ticket for approx 10 yrs now.
The age old problem keeps arising here, the inconsistencey between police forces and no set standards.
I have moved now but still got my U.K fac, I doubt I will renew it though.