I was watching a video the other day or Red deer stalking in the Highlands and the stalker commented that a particular stag was a good cull beast because it only had "single brow tines" ie one on each antler.



This got me thinking...does the "double brow tine" which is required to make a head a Royal only appear at or after a certain age in Stags or is it a gentic fault (like fish tails in fallow) ie if a relatively young beast does not have them, he will never grow them no matter how old he is?



Regards,



Pete

Normally, on a "good" stag the second brow tine appears after the crowns. They may be exceptions, however I have never seen it and the presence of double tines are proof enough that the animal is at least a 12 pointer or a "bad" everlasting 10 pointer(this is important as we shoot most Stags on the run during drive hunting and 10 pointers w/ crowns are prohibited). Identifying a "legal" deer rushing through the bushes is not easy. Counting is impossible, so a flash sight at those double tines is all one gets before deciding to take the shot. Needless to say, you better be cool headed, experienced (or feel very lucky...) before pressing the trigger

I think you'll find quite a few differing opinions about this subject. One school tends to lean towards that you can predict the quality of antlers in later years by what the antlers look like in very early years (such as in the 1st or 2nd head). There is another school of thought, though, that believes that this is not necessarily so, that it is extremely difficult to predict antler growth, as it depends on too many factors such as availability of feed, social status etc etc.

Who is right, good question? In our area, we tended to lean more towards the first school of thought, but not necessarily because of religious belief. Rather selection has to be done on some criteria, and since it may be impossible anyway to predict what a head will look like next year, if you want to select "genetically inferior" animals for the cull, you almost have to do so based on what they look like now. This obviously quite apart from other criteria such as size and weight.

- mike

I'll second that 100% and although I tend to belong to the second school of thought, our local game laws favour the first. I'm more positive about Roe as I see their heads go up and down, year after year, depending on food, health, stress, etc.). My believe is that you can only correctly judge an animal if you know him intimately for having seen him live and develop through several seasons

Gents,

Thanks for your input. I was actually wondering about when a red stag is likely to grow these double brow tines and whether there presence or lack of is a guide for selecting a cull beast...from Andre's remark, it seems perhaps not...

I need to do check something but will get back a little later,

Thanks again

Pete

Pete, you are putting us on the spot, and want us to be very specific about when you can expect to see the development of the second brow tine, correct??



I checked my reference material, and it suggests 3-4th head (i.e a stag in its 4-5th year of living). As you and your stalker have pointed out, not all stags ever develop these tines (called "Eissprosse" in German), and there is no guarantee the tine won't appear later, even if not present in 3-4th head.



That brings up back to the question we tried to answer above: does the lack of antler development at a particular age equate to a genetically inferior (at least as far as antler growth is concerned) animal for all times?? I think we tried to answer that questions above - alas with all the uncertainty and questionmarks that this question raises.



I suspect that if a stag has not developed his second brow tine by, say, 6-7th head, it is probably very unlikely to develop one ever. I don't know when a stag is considered mature in your part of the woods? Here on the continent, a trophy stag shot before its 10th year, is definitely considered too young. Naturally, this does not include "cull" stags shot at earlier ages, as the result of God knows what selection criteria.



Btw, although obviously all tines are important for the "quality" of an antler, here on the Continent more emphasis is probably put on the crown than on the second brow tine in terms of "expected" antler development. I can think of quite a few selection criteria based on crown development in the various countries I have had contact with - i.e. where the presence of a crown - in particular a double sided one - was used as an indication of a beast with good genetics, and thus to be excluded from the cull. The second brow tine, on the other hand, only pops up in one "selection rule" I can think of, and that is more of a negative rule. In Austria even the presence of the second brow tine, in the absence of the crown was considered a detriment and put the stag into a lower category (III as opposed to II, say).



Disclaimer: my reference material is German, and I don't know if your Scottish beasts are different to Continental stags in the above respect?? This was the best I could come up with. Due to the tough Scottish conditions, antler growth is usually not as pronounced when compared to Continental stags (I'm generalizing, of course), but I don't know to what extent you can expect a certain amount of tines on a Scottish stag??



- mike

Mike,



I confess I have very little detailed knowledge of Red deer. The ground I lease in Scotland is primarily for Roe but has a small permanent population of Red hinds along with their calves and a few staggies. However, during the rut, a few stags will move into our Sitka spruce woodland, but its seems to be for a very limited period probably only a month at the most.



Also, as the area on our ground favoured by the Reds is quite small, say about 200 to 300 hect, its quite possible some of these stag’s will take up residence just over our boundaries on other peoples ground and so be off limits. Under these conditions I was pleased to take the ten pointer below last year. Now if this stag had been on the hill in a proper Highland estate with a choice of animals to take, I think he would have been spared to “come on” as I think he may have been a 12 pointer in another couple of years.





I don’t know how there Reds in Scotland compare in antler development (apart from being smaller!) to the Red deer on the Continent as there is such a variation due to habitat. Even compared to the Red deer we get in the woodlands of Southern England, the Scottish red deer are considerably smaller…I have seen 20 pointers down south with a body weight two to three times there Scottish cousins and that sort of difference is quite normal.



Regards,



Pete

Nice stag!
I believe that the progession of a red stags antlers can be predicted after the 3-4 years (unlike a roe) but the selection of cull animals from the presence/absence of crowns/brow tines seems silly as there are no "inferior" stags in reality and a stag with no crowns can still be a good trophy and dominant male...if not shot too early. The best selection is based on age and dominance, with trophy quality as a distant third. Hinds also carry genes relating to antler growth but they cannot be shot with regards to this and therefore there will always be genes for so-called "inferior" stags in all populations.
Just look at any well-managed German/Czech forest and such stags can still be found even if the population has been managed based on trophy quality for the last 40 years!
I believe that the reduction of a certain segment of the population would serve only to remove an important part of the genetic diversity of the herd. Nonetheless, many countries base selection on crowns/brow tines and have the best trophies in the world (Hungary/Czechia/Austria) but maybe this can be attributed to a mixture of genetics/feeding/preservation? Most stags will give a good representative trophy is left until the age of 11-12...

Nice animal, Pete. Weidmannsheil! And taken with a Sako, if my eyes still serve me... My first rifle (Sako AIII Hunter .30-06) looks exactly like yours, except for the open sights - a "must" on the Continent

I hear you about making the most of your opportunities. What is possible and sensible must also be seen in the context of the options you have. If you were the master of 2-3000 ha and a large herd, you could probably select differently to what you do. As it is, you probably have to "carpe diem" when the opportunity arises. Red deer can move amazing distances within a very short period of time, so you can't rely on them staying on your property for all that long. Now comes the million dollar question: how to hunt them without creating pressure and make them move. Figure that one out...
- mike

Boss,

I think perhaps the term “trophy quality” is not correct here, and “antler confirmation” is probably more accurate. Whether we agree or not, antler confirmation is one of the major yard sticks when assessing the quality of a beast. There are of course other factors which sometimes take priority. As you suggest antler confirmation is a very artificial yard stick because as you rightly note sometimes r animals of lesser quality are often the dominant animal. Throw into that the factor of the un known genes carried by the hind, and things start looking a bit uncertain. Ian Alcock has studied gestation periods, average calving dates and tied them into the Red rut. If you believe his theory’s, most master stags have finished rutting and are spent/run before the majority of hinds are even in season! Still while using antler confirmation as a yard stick for cull selection is not perfect, I believe it is the best practical yard stick we have as long as its coupled with common sense.

Mike,

It is indeed a Sako only in .308Win…on reflection that stag was probably taken two maybe three years ago; time just seems to go! Anyway, the reason that trophy means so much to me is that it is the only time I have managed to catch the Red rut in full swing and hear the stages roaring in earnest, it was truly magical being in the woods at dawn listening to that…

Regards

Pete

Yes the roar is indeed a magic time. It is just majestic to hear the stags at this time of the year - as the master deperately runs after all the girls to see whether there might be something in it for him... Why are animals and humans so much alike...
- mike

I have also heard that the best antlered males are those that are born early in the year (older hinds) and have a good first growing season, therefore it is important to keep a certain amount of mature females in the herd.
I find that in Europe managers tend to select females more carefully when culling, but I know of many Scottish hunters who go hind shooting and allow that they just shoot whichever hind happens to be closest...
Any thoughts?

I think it is probably true that fawns/calves that get started well in life may be a step ahead. Id hate to speculate whether this effect is momentary or lasting, though.

Over here (meaning Germanic Central Europe), selection of female animals for the cull is primarily based on age (very young or very old), general condition, and (primarily) whether a hind has calves. First choice for the cull: hinds which are so old that they no longer carry (hard to come by!), second choice: females in their second year, i.e. before the first calf. After that, it is considered beneficial to be able to shoot (all) calves and hind at the same time - minimizes educational effect on hind loosing her calf to a hunter. Obviously, never shoot a hind away from her calf (happens, but minor catastrophy!).

In general, the lead hinds (older, always one with a calf) are very important to the herd, in terms of experience and knowledge of where to find sources of food, water, shelter etc.
- mike

Boss,

I think that on most established forests, the they aim to manage the hinds using the same criteria as mike mentions..certainly the times I have been out the stalker has been quite specific as to what type of hind we were after... Having said that, most of the Estates are under a hell of a lot of pressure from the Deer Commission and/or Scottish Nature to drastically increase their cull numbers. In Deeside they are instigating a management plan which is virtually reducing Red deer to the status of vermin.. The guy we lease some ground off was saying that the Deer Commission are virtually throwing night shooting licences at people..Under these circumstances where management is reduced to a numbers game, you are probably right...

Regards,

Pete

Boghossian,

A stag with no crowns will never be a good trophy. It could be large, but that is something different. A head with no crowns is uncomplete.

Selection should be based on many criteria, with trophy quality (not just trophy size) playing an important role, since trophy quality gives us plenty of useful information about the animal that carries it.

The reduction of a certain segment of the population serves to remove individuals which carry undesirable features, features which the manager should try to erradicate, and that is why those places where such a selection is under practice produce the best trophies in the world.

Most stags will give a large trophy if left until the age of 11-12 giveen certain conditions, but a pair of large antlers do not necessarily constitute a good trophy.

montero

mho,

culling hinds which do not carry may turn out a terrible mistake.

first of all, we can not asume they are old and no longer fertile. a hind may not carry because some predator took her fawn, in which case we have a hind, that free of the obligations to feed her fawn, will reach her next estrus in the best of conditions, and her corporal weight and health will surely determine the quality of her next fawn.

and second, it it werereally old the herd will surely benefit from her wisdom, how to find watering places in hot summers such as the last one, how to protect from snow and ice, etc.

it is not that simple.

montero

Montero, so true. Good you are contributing to our discussion!

All socalled "selection" will be fraught with the risk of making mistakes. Alas, the yearly quota has to be met, so selection has to be made on some criteria, be they good or bad.

One point though, it should be a goal to achieve a good age distribution in your herd - we typically describe this as a narrowing of the age pyramid, as it allows all ages in the pyramid to be present in the population with whatever social benefits that has. But, that said, it is also important to get rid of animals that have outlived their productive years - and I'll have to admit I have actually never succeeded in selecting such an animal. I hear you about that it is possible to select a hind as old, only to find out she was not that old and simply not carrying for some other reason. However, with limitations, it is possible to guess-timate the age of reds. They grow looooong in the face, bony and boxy as they grow older. All this is subject to errors, but one has to make the best judgment and act accordingly. Errors happen, such is life.

- mike

Hi,
When I said a stag with no crowns could be a good trophy, I meant it would be pleasing to the eye and make the hunter proud....not that it would gain high marks in some record book or competition. I recently saw the antlers of a 14 point stag with dark horns, ivory tips, lots of pearling, long beams.....it was a TROPHY (forget the lack of crowns).
BTW can any of you give rough numbers as to the number of deer there are in your quota?
I was wondering if any of you know how red deer herds can live in the same area as sika deer without interbreeding? I know this occurs in Ireland, but the amount of documented interbreeding is uncertain....