I had a discussion with a friend who says that hunting is well beyond the means of an average German citizen. He said that the process of obtaining the German hunting license is so rigorous that a young person would have to forgo a college education in order to earn the license. And it is very difficult, almost impossible for an average citizen to own a rifle.

Many Americans believe this. I remember being told in hunter’s education class (back in 1970) that even a millionaire or “ordinary” professional like a doctor or engineer is unable to afford to hunt in Germany. Only the extremely wealthy and/or politically connected could hunt the Fatherland.

How true is this? My friend is active with Teckel clubs all over the USA and knows Germans who bring their dogs here for field trials. So I cannot dismiss what he says out-of-hand but I don't know how true it really is.

I know that the hunting culture is very different in Germany but is hunting really “well beyond the reach” of an average German? Let’s define “average” as someone who earns an annual salary of $30,000 to $60,000 per year. A person who could afford a new VW Golf but maybe not a BMW. Also, let’s define “hunting” as a reasonable opportunity to kill a modest roebuck.

What about obtaining a hunting license? I realize that there is no comparison between what a prospective German hunter must go through to obtain a hunting license compared to his American counterpart. But is it really the equivalent of a earning a college degree?

How difficult is it for a German to own a rifle? My understanding is that a person must have a hunting license and obtain permission from the police in order to own a firearm. This is, of course, much different than in the USA but it is really that hard for a law-abiding, properly licensed German hunter to own an appropriate rifle?

This is the Short Version, it is a fairly complex topic. Firearms ownership is a Privilege here, not a Right. I'm not in Omaha, but in Frankfurt, so if I want to Play, I Play by their Rules - that simple.

For those members of the Diplomatic Corps, US, British & Canadian Armed Forces stationed here in The Fatherland; they have retained the right to test their applicants based on German requirements. The US Forces German Hunting Course is @ 6 weeks long, also intensive but certainly managable for those with previous hunting experience. On the other hand for those without previous experience it is a structured way to get into hunting. Not saying that's the way it should/has to be, just that - "It Is What It Is.

After the Sportshooting or Hunting License is obtained the Legal, Firearms & ammunition aquisition, storage & use based on German Law apply equally to all, no exceptions.

Having said that, I'm fully integrated into German Hunting, have all the Licenses (Explosive License to reload, too), Certificates (Hunting Instructor) fullfill their legal requirements, respect their culture and speak the language. Can you have a great hunting experience here on less qualifications? Certainly. The rewards for all of this are simply superb. 365 day a year Hunting Season, 24 hours a day, participate in a hunting Lease with another American and a German national, hunt throughout Germany & Europe and participate in sportshooting events (rifle/shotgunning) up through German national & Internationl level(s). I consider myself a Hunting Ambasador, respecting their and sharing my (our) heritage.

quote:

I had a discussion with a friend who says that hunting is well beyond the means of an average German citizen.

No. Blue Collar occupations remain the vast majority of both Sportshooters & Hunters; tendancy increasing. It is though, not without associated costs. Firearms & ammuntion here cost @ 3 times that of Stateside. There's Adminstration Fees, Licensing, Insurance, Storage (manditory firearm safes & ammunition storage), Hunting Leases (you pay yourself or you help pay Lease costs if you desire to hunt private Leases - No, Free Lunch!), National & State Forest charge Trophy Fees, yes, someone who's tight with their cash will not be a Happy Camper. Is this all within the realm of the "average" German Joe. Quite so.

He said that the process of obtaining the German hunting license is so rigorous that a young person would have to forgo a college education in order to earn the license.

It takes anywhere from 3-weeks (Full-Time 21 day instruction at an accredited Hunting School, expensive but becoming more & more popular) or up to 2 years depending on the German State (Federal dictate administered by individual German States). It is known as the Grüne Abitür (Green Matriculation) and is quite encompassing. You have to pass a difficult, extensive Written, Oral, Practical, Shooting & Gun Handling (Safety) Exam at the conclusion of the course. Some German States have a Pass/Failure rate of 50%. Those who really have the passion take the course again until they pass; others go by the wayside. The largest hurdle IIRC is the Shooting Test, theory can be learned & regurgitated, shooting skills are aquired.

This reason is that the course assumes that all Hunting Licensee's may one day have their own Hunting Lease. While you are undergoing training (hunting) or sportshooting tutiledge application or initiation as a member into a Sportshooting Club a Police Check (what we refer to as a National Agency Check) is conducted. If you were not a Nice Person; you will more less than likely, get "The Nod". Additionally, 'cept for military, ex-miltary, Police, etc. learning to shoot; either rifle, shotgun & handgun, safety, gun handling, Firearms Law, all have to be taught since the uninitiated have never (for the most) been around, associated with or had exposure to Firearms. Net, a concept that is quite normal here but many of us have grown up with/around Firearms. The concept of going out to the local dump or into the desert/forest/private property and informally shooting vermin (a Safari?) or plinking simply does not exist. All shooting scenarios here are structured.

And it is very difficult, almost impossible for an average citizen to own a rifle.

Let's just say it is a more intensive process than in the US. In almost all European Union countries (it varies) Firearms Ownership is based on a Need/Requirement/Desire. You apply to show a "Need" then apply for that purpose, Sportshooters (Rifles/Handguns/Shotguns), Hunters (Rifles/Handguns/Shotguns) & Security Professionals, also Collectors.

Many Americans believe this. I remember being told in hunter’s education class (back in 1970) that even a millionaire or “ordinary” professional like a doctor or engineer is unable to afford to hunt in Germany. Only the extremely wealthy and/or politically connected could hunt the Fatherland. How true is this?

No, that simply isn't so.

My friend is active with Teckel clubs all over the USA and knows Germans who bring their dogs here for field trials. So I cannot dismiss what he says out-of-hand but I don't know how true it really is. I know that the hunting culture is very different in Germany but is hunting really “well beyond the reach” of an average German? Let’s define “average” as someone who earns an annual salary of $30,000 to $60,000 per year. A person who could afford a new VW Golf but maybe not a BMW. Also, let’s define “hunting” as a reasonable opportunity to kill a modest roebuck. What about obtaining a hunting license? I realize that there is no comparison between what a prospective German hunter must go through to obtain a hunting license compared to his American counterpart. But is it really the equivalent of a earning a college degree? How difficult is it for a German to own a rifle? My understanding is that a person must have a hunting license and obtain permission from the police in order to own a firearm.

You must apply for a License, either Sportshooting or Hunting License and obtain them; thereby having a need to own/possess/purchase Firearms. A German National Agency (Police) Check is required for all of these applications, as anywhere else if you have a Criminal Record your applicaton will most certainly be denied (there is an Appeals Process, too but don't count on it!) If criminal offense(s) occur while you are in possesion of Firearms you will be required to divest yourself of them, turn them in or they will be confiscated (Yes, Due Process applies here, too).

This is, of course, much different than in the USA but it is really that hard for a law-abiding, properly licensed German hunter to own an appropriate rifle?

Let's just say you need to be determined, have a purpose and keep your Nose Clean afterwards (Whole Person Concept) if you display/depict anti-social tendancies, Drunk Driving, Civil & Criminal complaints/record you will not receive these priviledges initially nor keep them.

Thanks for your detailed response Gerry.
Very interesting info.

Gerry,

Thanks Buddy for a great response and your following comment.

quote:

I consider myself a Hunting Ambasador, respecting their and sharing my (our) heritage.

Keep up the good work.

Don

Gerry-

Danke, Mitjager!

Very well put Gerry, from my own experience the average working German is the typical hunter and revier holder. The number of blue collar Joes seems to far outweigh the white collar types down in Bavaria.

quote:

Let's just say you need to be determined, have a purpose and keep your Nose Clean afterwards (Whole Person Concept) if you display/depict anti-social tendancies, Drunk Driving, Civil & Criminal complaints/record you will not receive these priviledges initially nor keep them.

True, well put Gerry.

In short, if you are determined and put forth the effort very doable.

Gerry made an 100% accurate describtion. Only one thing to add maybe is the increasing numbers of female hunters- which was at least in my circles unseen in the 80s.

That explains why I keep missing those boars on German driven hunts

Wonderful distraction

Perhaps I could add a bit here having lived and hunted in the Black Forest (Southern) area of West Germany, as it was known then, for 12 months.

I was fortunate in that the Germans I had befriended while they were hunting and working in my own country and who consequently invited me to come to Germany and spend time with them, were 'well connected'. One was a Forester with his own business preparing forestry plans for landowners and the other a Doctor of Dentistry who had his own hunting area and other connections with like professional people and gunsmiths.

I spent some time living with the Mayor of a village and his family in the Black Forest who had the hunting area and took prospective hunting licence (Jagdschein) applicants for some of their training. He was also president at the time of the area hunting club too.

My dentist friend, one of whose patients who was a Director in the state forestry department, was able to obtain a foreigners Jadgscein for me (I still have it) which allowed me to carry a firearm hunting with others or to hunt on my own with permission of the owner of a hunting area (reviere). This I did on a many occasions in several areas including around a village near Stuttgart and in the Austrian Alps.

From my friends I did glean that if a landowner had an area of 90 hectares or more he could have this as his own hunting area but any land parcels under this size were grouped together, say all the land around a village, and the hunting rights tendered to the highest bidder/s. This brought in big money to the landowners who shared the pot and because of the prices involved the hunting areas generally became the preserve of the rich with many bigger areas around the city’s taken up by syndicates.

I was told that the study needed in obtaining a Jagdschein involved biology, music, law, hunting law and rituals, as well as firearms handling and shooting skill culminating with fairly stringent exams to pass. This level of study saw that obtaining a Jagdschein was more often the preserve of well-educated and healed people. My Forester friend told me that one needed to be up to a University level to be able to succeed at the study and exams. His words were that in general “a farmer’s son was not likely to succeed”.

While living with the village Mayor and his family I was able to observe some young students having some study sessions with the Mayor and have a look through some of the text books involved. The biology component was quite extensive. Again while with the Mayor I was sent out on a few occasions to shoot one or two Reh deer for festivals coming up in the village as well as taking a couple of Reh bucks while hunting with my Forester friend who had lived and been schooled in the village before moving to another village in the same general area.

was a great time for me and completely opposite hunting style from the shoot as many of anything, at any time of year, as you wish in my own country. I guess from my observation, the strict and difficult hunting system at least served to preserve hunting in Germany which had a landmass the size of NZ but had 70 million people living in it where we had only 3.5 million.

One thing I gather from talking to people and hanging around a German Hunting forum is that they have real problem with militant antis who'll stop at nothing to disrupt their activities including sabotage of their facilities.

Grizz

One thing I should have added to my post above is that I was told by my German Forester friend that poachers could be shot on sight, as usually if caught they would shoot first I'm so glad we never had that option in NZ, there would be no hunters left including myself, we would have all shot ourselves

Eagle27,

I think there you friend told you something wrong

If you shoot a person just for poaching you would go into Jail and loose all your rifles

You are allowed to arrest a poacher until the polices arrives. Shooting on a poacher is only allowed to protected you own life, for example if he shoots first.

But poaching is not a big thing and I can't believe that they would shoot first... never heard this in Germany.

eagle27, I am glad you enjoyed yourself in the Blackforest region and gained some insight into our hunting traditions.

And no, shooting presumed poachers at sight is very much illegal at least since we became a republic in 1918.

Oh well I didn't have to shoot any poachers anyway, I found it a bit hard to judge their antlers from the hochsitz so passed up on the shot

You did well. Also the proper gutting and aging as well as the proper "Erlegerbruch" are fairly complicated issues.

quote:

Firearms ownership is a Privilege here, not a Right.

Hmmm.... I mean it´s not a privilege. It´s "difficult" an not "easy" to get a permit, but every citizen over 18 years, with mental and physical health and without any police record can get a permit. You are a target shooter and member in one of the assosiations, or you have a hunting permit, than you can buy guns. Of course with many regulations, but it´s possible. And not a privileg.
But we will see, what the new government will do with this "gun law" next year. I have terrible fears.

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Fan:

quote:

Firearms ownership is a Privilege here, not a Right.

Hmmm.... I mean it´s not a privilege. It´s "difficult" an not "easy" to get a permit, but every citizen over 18 years, with mental and physical health and without any police record can get a permit. You are a target shooter and member in one of the assosiations, or you have a hunting permit, than you can buy guns. Of course with many regulations, but it´s possible. And not a privileg.
But we will see, what the new government will do with this "gun law" next year. I have terrible fears.

Martin

your fears are going to be for a lot of EU countries soon ...

Dear all,

please allow me, a German hunter, to shed a little light on this from an inside-out perspective.

a) hunting is not only for the priviledged. There are a multitude of ways to hunting. Personally, I was granted the right to hunt in a private (farmer-owned) area for free. I only have to pay a fee for each beast I take. The fee is around 70 USD for a roe deer. That's about the money the local butcher pays me for the meat. So I hunt for free. This is not completely unusual, as the deer and hog population is so dense that the owners of land or lease often do not have the time themselves to fulfill the culling plan and they like the help they get from hunters in maintaining the hunting area. So on the one hand it is expensive to get your own lease (app. 50 USD per hectare per year plus some additional costs with app. 300 hectare of average territory per lease). On the other, those guys need help, which means there are lots of opportunities to hunt for (nearly) free.

b) intellectual challenge for the hunting license: everybody can succeed in the classes and exams. It is easier, if you are trained in learning, of course. But: every local hunting association, which represents the local hunters in official business, organizes training classes. They take longer, but after 9 months of weekly classes, you really know a lot about the subjects covered. And the classes are more or less for free. The exams are conducted by the same associations and the jury consists of local hunters. So, they have a certain interest in promoting the average man to become a hunter. Again no hurdles here. In fact, if you are one of the wealthy, they might make it harder for you to pass ...

c) land ownership and hunting rights:
back in 1848, we had a revolution in Germany, which tried to turn the many small kingdoms, dukedoms etc. into a centralized republic. That did not quite work. One thing that was part of the package was that anyone could hunt anywhere on "public" land. The consequence was, that in a very short time, nearly all deer were killed, as nobody owned it and protected it (see American buffalo). As a historic consequence, hunting rights are coupled with land ownership. If you own more than 75 hectares in one piece you may manage your own hunting. If you own less, the hunting rights of your and others' pieces are "joined" to form a communal hunting area, which can be as big as 1,000 hectares. This area usually is leased, either by some of the land owners, or by outsiders. The lease is for 9 to 12 years. This way, there is a long-term interest in maintaining high levels of deer populations etc. In fact this led to the fact that hunters are the biggest conservationists, as they invest heavily in bio diversity etc. Where I hunt, which is about 5 min. away from a mid-sized city, I may see as many as 20 roe deer on an area of maybe 50 hectares. The owner definitely needs my help to deal with these numbers ;-)

d) gun ownership:
if you have a hunting license this proves your "need" of guns, in fact there is no limit to the number of rifles or shotguns you may purchase. You have to register the gun after you purchased them, so even admin is limited. Pistols/Revolvers are another matter: only two are seen as "necessary" by the law. In my view, for hunting you do not need any, but they are fun and therefore, I do not complain. Myself, I own about 5 rifles and one shotgun. For the average hunter this is probably a decent arsenal.

e) Costs: it's cheap to buy a decent rifle, either a used one, or a new US product. it all depends on the quality to expect. In general, Germans tend to spend more on a single rifle rather than owning many. I would not be able to tell you the average money spent, but i would assume that 1,000 - 1,500 EUR for the scope plus the same for the rifle would be average. I bought my first rifle, a used Sauer 90 with a Zeiss scope for 2,000 EUR. A used Mauser 98 can be acquired for less than 500 EUR without scope. The average household income after tax is about 3,000 EUR. So you would have to save a bit to afford a good rifle, but it is not that hard. In fact, many hunters from "humble" backgrounds live their passion, lease hunting areas, buy Jeeps, keep dogs and spend a hell of a lot of money. So it seems money is not the limiting factor here.

f) hunting trips etc.:
I have been considering to go hunting in the US, e.g. for pronghorn. what keeps me away from doing it is the immense cost!!! Hunting is so incredibly expensive over there. I just cannot afford it. I rather go to Namibia, Scotland, Hungary etc. Example: One day in Scotland will cost me 400-500 Pounds including a red stag. One day on roe deer in Germany will cost about 200 - 300 EUR in a national forest, additional trophy fees might apply. Driven boar is mostly for free, if you are a good shot, but it would cost less than 1,000 EUR if you book it through an agent. Red deer hunting in hungary for a week might cost you 3 to 5,000 EUR including one decent stag. Please compare that to guided Elk hunting somewhere in the US...

Overall, in my opinion, being able to hunt in Germany and most of Europe is easy and cheap to come by. It is a bit more regulated and there for sure is more "red tape", but if you really want to do it, it's possible.

Hope this sheds some additional light on the question,

regards

McStern

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:
You did well. Also the proper gutting and aging as well as the proper "Erlegerbruch" are fairly complicated issues.

Yes DUK it was certainly a learning curve for me although from the very beginning I respected the culture of hunting in your country.

Obviously some of the traditions such as the 'last meal or bite'(small sprig of a tree put in the mouth of the animal)and not stepping over the top of the animal when gutting were quite 'quaint' traditions to me but they all had their place in the overall hunting code serving to preserve the sport in a country with many people but few animals in comparison.

The Black Forest area of Germany that I spent time in was an absolute treasure and a delight to live and hunt in.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I understand the tradition of the "last bite" but could someone please explain this:

quote:

not stepping over the top of the animal when gutting

I'm guessing a derivation from common-sense!

Step over a beast while you are gralloching, and rubbish can fall from your boots into the open body cavity.

Rgds

Ian

No, it is a sign of respect for the animal. Obviously there is also a practical purpose as you describe but a lot of the hunting ethics is based on valueing the individual animal. Also there is normally no need to step over, at least I never did it in 25 years of hunting. To step over dead humans seems totally out of mind to me and I guess that is what drove the people who set up the framework, often under the impression of the gruel WW I.

quote:

Originally posted by IanF:
I'm guessing a derivation from common-sense!

Step over a beast while you are gralloching, and rubbish can fall from your boots into the open body cavity.

Rgds

Ian

Very true, though I learned you don't step over the animals due to plain simple respect to them.

I think this has been one of the better topics I have read on this website. I learned a lot and the whole subject of European hunting and it's traditions is fascinating to me.

German hunting and traditions. We have different ones in the north.

Growing up in Czechoslovakia, I went through all the training and so forth. Living in US for 27 years, I prefer US way of hunting.
Easier and cheaper, contrary to McStern. If I live over in Commie Europe, it would be maybe cheaper there.
I actually can't stand Europe, because of the structure, socialism and simply put police state of mind ( protect me from myself).
But of course that's just me and I don't have anything against anyone there personaly. People are great and I visit every year to visit family and friends. Just hate all those little kingdoms/regimes that keep simple freedom constantly at bay in the name of security and safety.

US is the kingdom what puts freedom at bay heavy surveilence and warning signs on coffecups.

Live here and you"ll find out.
I have lived on both sides of the ocean.
No disrepect' but you are totally wrong Nordic2
But then again we look at things from two different points of view

I could see a book being written about the German traditions and legal requirements for hunting.
Fascinating.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by pevtsovy:
I think this has been one of the better topics I have read on this website. I learned a lot and the whole subject of European hunting and it's traditions is fascinating to me.

+1

Having just returned from a brief trip to Europe I find that there are ways in which the Europeans are much more free than Americans, as well as ways in which Americans enjoy more freedom than most Europeans. On balance, there is much good and some bad on either side of the pond.

My European friends enjoy some great hunting, and for a larger variety of game than is generally available in any one place in America. On the other hand, they have to jump through more hoops and endure more expense and red tape to own their guns than do Americans.

Too bad that as a human society we seem incapable of adopting the best of each country/culture and leaving the worst behind.

Each european county has different laws. In Sweden its generally cheap to hunt. You need to have a hunting exam to own rifles and shotguns and you are limited to six longguns for hunting. Every one has access to hunting ground on government land in the scandinavian alps.