The discussions about Red Deer have been very interesting for me but I don't fully understand some of the terms used. Would someone post some photos showing animals with and without the "crowns" that have been mentioned and if possible show some animals of different sizes as from what I read trophies are typically paid for be the weight of the antlers and skull.

Bill, a "crown" is formed whan a red has at least 3 top tines. The standard configuration is that you count from the brow tine, and if a 2nd brow tine is available, the crown is considered to start from the fourth tine. The German name of the tines are: Augsprosse, Eissprosse, Mittelsprosse, Wolfsprosse (already part of the crown), Krone.



Here is a picture of a mother of a red from Bulgaria. This one has it ALL! Unfortunately not all stags look like this... (picture stolen from another website, if that site decides to remove the jpg, the picture will disappear, unfortunately)







You are right that in most countries on Continental Europe, stag prices are set according to the weight of the trophy. Some countries (Czech Republic, former Yugoslavia etc) set prices via CIC score. Please don't ask about the price for a stag like the one above, if you have to ask, you can't afford it



Note how this stag has more than 3 tines in its crown, that is considered highly attractive.



- mike

I'll see whether I can post a picture of PeteE's Scottish stag as an example of a stag with no crown:



This is a very nice Scottish stag. He lacks the 3rd top tine, which would have given him a crown, and which would have made him a "Royal" - assuming a double sided crown.

As you can see, you can't compare reds from different parts of the world, any more than you can compare a big northern whitetail with a Coues deer, say. They may be the same deer, but the conditions they live under are so different that they develop in totally different directions.
- mike

MHO,
I want to be kind with DB Bill making some price example.
In Romania a big trophy like that one, normally cost very much, a 10kg Trophy costs 4600Euro, a 11Kg 6550 Euro and a 11.5Kg 9100Euro.
Over 11.5kg the trophy costs 60Euro every 10grams.
The same method X euro every 10 grams is applied also for a trophy which weigh more than 10kg rather than 11 kg.
Two friends of mine that hunted together for medium trophy weight in Hungary, shooted two red deers with, more or less, equivalent trophy weight, about 6kg.
The difference was in the color, and in the shape. One was very dark and forked, or with no crown, like the one in MHO photo, the other one was lite and crowned.
The second one was a old bull, the other one was mature but not dominant.
The antler of the first one was very compact, instaed the antler of the second bull were more "spongy".
The first was better, but the second seems more representative than the first.
At the following address there is the photo of a friend of mine with his red deer. It is too yellow, I know, but I never fin the time to make up a photo made in the night. The trophy weights about 6Kg. It has been taken in Romania, near Oradea.
http://www.hunt101.com/imgimg/003567.jpg
bye

Steve, I'll post your photo direct for you:



Yeah, that is a typical price calculation for Eastern European stags. It is a favorite sport for Swiss and German hunters to compare the minute details between countries, and try to figure out where a stag of a certain size is less expensive. Probably not surprising, when one considers just how expensive a stag can become! (The last statement does not apply to resident multi-millionaires ).

Nice stag, Steve. When talking about Continental stags, I always think a weight of about 6-7 kg start making them look like real trophies. Mind you, weight can vary a lot from area to area, and 2 stags looking pretty much the same from different areas, can have radically different weights. Nice to only have to pay for a lower weight, although your stag looks impressive

When all that is said, obviously there is more to a trophy than simply size (measured however). There is configuration (how many tines where), shape, colour, what the Germans call "Perlung" - not quite sure what the English expression is for that, it is the texture of the antler, the little "bubbles" that make up the texture of the surface of the main beams (sorry about my inadequate explanation, but for the life of me I can't remember the English expression!).

One of the best looking stag trophies I ever saw came out of Poland. It was almost black and just marvellously shaped. It was not even that heavy (maybe 8 kg, if memory serves), but is was a marvel to behold. Mind you, it probably would not have held a candle to the Bulgarian monster above. That stag is really something different!

- mike

Mike - this will make you spit - the word is 'Pearling' Dont you love it when the translation turns out to be so tough!

Rgds Ian

Hi,
Is it just me, or is Scotland the only place where a flat fee can be paid for any stag (in certain estates of course)?
Also, has anyone shot a stag in Russia? I have heard good things about the stags in Crimea...where exactly does a stage begin to have maral genes?

No, there are other places where a flat fee per stag is paid, but on the Continent this is easily the exception, sadly perhaps.

There are fantastic stags available in Russia - or better parts of the former Sovjet Union. Some of the biggest reds to come out of Europe in the later years are from a hunting area referred to as "Alexander Wald" - as far as I know somewhere south of Rostov in Russia, expensive place! There are also other hunting areas in Southern Russia offering excellent stag hunting.

The Ukraine has excellent stags, although the hunting areas here can be fraught with problems such as poaching (as can Russian areas, naturally). I have also heard references to good stags obtainable on the Krim, so maybe there is something to it?? Krim is supposed to have a warmer climate, maybe that has something to do with it?

About marals, if we are using this name in its taxonomic sense, then we are talking about the red deer classified as "Cervus Elaphus Maral" - I belive their distribution includes the Caucasus (sp?), into northern parts of Iran and surrounding areas. Big animals, but definitely still a red deer. I had the good fortune to take a stag in the Caucasus a few years back. Tough hunting, large animal! The skull of this red deer is actually bigger than those of my Wapitis!! Antlers decidedly red deer, though.

If we are using the word "maral" as it is commonly used - somewhat in conflict with the taxonomic use mentioned above - as a reference to Asian wapitis, then these animals have a distribution somewhat further east. Now we are talking Kirgistan, Kazakhstan (where the largest stags of this type are currently taken), Russian Altai, Mongolia and into China. Further East, the wapiti type changes somewhat and is often referred to as "Isubra" - same antler configuration, although smaller than the wapiti. The Asian wapiti (or maral?) is very close to its American cousin. I have a feeling the Asian variant may be coloured somewhat more grey rather than tan, but there is little difference in the general antler configuration. Except for the best areas of Kazakhstan and the odd animal elsewhere, the wapiti does not form a crown. Over the last 10 years or so, some amazing stags have come out of the Taldy Kurgan area of Kazakhstan - records have been broken time and again. Although, as often happens when a new "super area" is discovered, a lot of hunting pressure is suddenly generated. The big stags are still out there, but your odds of finding one have probably gone down to the tune of higher hunting pressure.

Btw, apparently for students of the various deer types in Asia, there are also multiple sub-species of the wapiti type animals. I remember once reading an article in the UK Deer Society magazine, where a learned person listed various deer types, their similarities and differences. For a hunter, this is perhaps more academic than real??

- mike

Mho,
Maral is the EuroAsian version of American Elk, infact Maral does not make crowns, but has a typical Fork trophy configuration. At limit this is what I know about.
About Red deer instead i remember the photo of an anomalous Trophy, where there were no tines but only a crown with short tines.
Imagine two long arched ancient torches, with the upper diameter of antler body of about 15cm with the tines poiting up like rays, and big roses too ...... I did not asked the weight, but it was heavy, very heavy. Fantastic....

If I'll have time, I'll try to put the other photos on my pc, and then on this topic. But I have to remember how link the photos here.
have a good week end, bye.

Mike,

We tend to say that a head in decline is “going back” so the terminology is basically the same.

Bill,

The others have pretty much covered what is meant by the term “Royal” and “crowns”…There seems to be a couple of variations on the exact definition of a Royal, but I believe the traditional Scottish one is that not only must the stag have 12 or more points, but the crowns or “cups” formed by the top three tines on each side must be deep enough to hold a dram of Scotch! Additionally, for any point to be considered a proper “tine” you must be able to hang a wedding ring on it…

Regards,

Pete

Well,
the Italian definition is "in regresso" and it match with both definitions.
However that bull could have a head in decline or going back or setting back or "in regresso" but it was that antlers were fantastic and absolutely far from my pockets possibilities.

bye