Good afternoon gentlemen.

I would appreciate some help on a couple of points to do with my license application.

The first is the inevitable calibre question. I have used a 308 exclusively up to this point but that is not saying much as I’ve only shot it twice in earnest and on both occasion the deer was taken very ill very quickly.

I often read said that in consideration of cost and availability of ammo 308 is the best choice but looking around, a box of 20 seems to cost much the same in 243, 270, 6.5 308 etc. so is what about a 270 or 6.5x55? I have read that some countries have restriction on civilian hunting rifles in military calibres? Not a great consideration granted but I would like to go see the hunting world so to speak. Any pointers would be appreciated!!

The second is mainly aimed at the brits and is to do with range and deer use. I am applying on the basis of paid deer stalking. I would however like to use a range to practice in between outings as I’m a (lucky) utter novice. To this end is it best to join a club after I’ve got my FAC or to join as soon as possible and sit out the probation period sooner rather than later?

Many thanks for your help

Regards,

Amir

Amir,

Firstly welcome to the forum!

Theres no perfect calibre and everybody has a favorite.

France is one of the countries where military calibre,s are banned but I've heard of people taking .308win and 6.5x55mm rifles across with no problem and yet others stopped at the border..

If I definitely knew I intended hunting in France on a regular basis, I'd probably buy a .270 or .260Rem as my first rifle, and then add a 9.3x62 or similar for boar at a latter date.

The .270win has the advantage here in the UK of widely available ammo..If your going to reload, or have a good shooting shop nearby, I'd seriously look at the .260rem instead...

With regards getting your FAC, especially if you don't have any land to stalk over, the local Police are probably going to request you do your DSC 1...They have no real legal basis for doing this, but it seems to be a common approach these days.

Membership of the BDS also helps, and I think (not 100% sure on this, so check) if your a member you can use the ranges down at Bisley simply paying on a per visit basis?

Before you get your FAC, If you do going stalking, keep a record as it helps to establish "good reason" with the Police. I would try to get a written confirmation of your booking from the Estate concerned and also take pictures ect while there...

Regards,

Pete

Hello Pete and thank you for your advice.

You may (or not ) remember my post about my first ever stalk booked through the link in Fallowbuck's sig around september last year. Reading this page got me stalking and so I return for advice!

I have to confess i really like the idea of a 270, i've seen boggy's 270 in the steel and its a very sweet piece! If its ammo is about the same cost as the 308, none of the magazines seem to carry ads for ammo, then i like the pedegree. I have the same feelings for the 6.5 x 55 and especialy the 7x 57 but repress them!

I've been on 4 outings so far and managed to shoot two deer mainly due to the quality of the guide! i've got reciepts and have a a few outings booked for March and April. Do I need long term bookings , forexample into next year etc? I was planning on saving and researching at the moment.

The big worry for me is shooting straight, I've shot perhaps 20 rounds of centrefire in my life! I'll need to practice at a range so the BDS route you mentioned is very interesting. I've been a member of BASC for two years for their insurance cover but will readily join the BDS if its a good idea generally.

As to the DSC 1 it seems doable, afterall i know very little about deer except what I have been able to read, any and all practical experience would be a good thing for me!

Cheers again.

Amir

Amir
-A series of booked stalks is a good background for an application, but as PeteE has outlined most police will only issue you with an FC which states you must be accompanied by an FC holder until you attain the DSC1.

This may be a good compromise if you are intending to start off with guided stalking regardless.

-You are already a member of BASC, so it would be handy to call their specialised team for advice on your application.

-In my (limited) experience, a well worded covering letter listing any shooting/hunting experience whatsoever will help put the cops at ease.

-Caliber, all the discussions here will dissect the small differences between them, all calibers listed above will suit your purposes. Where we live, there is really no such thing as 'cheap ammo' so if lots of rounds downrange are your goal, I would suggest reloading.

As to range, I have never shot over 240m and that was in the Scottish highlands. Most stalkers won't let you fire beyond 200.

All the best

Gabriel

Amir,

I don't think you need to worry too much about bookings being long term, as long as you can show you've been stalking...

Various Police Forces tend to have different have different "requirements" before issuing an FAC and historically, were more down to the Chief Constables policy than any real basis in law..

If you fancy a .270win, i would recommend shooting one in a similar weight rifle as you intend to buy as some people don't like the kick.

The .260rem and 6.5x55mm are better in that respect, and are more than good enough for all the British deer species..

Regards,

Pete

Hi Amir,

I'm in almost exactly the same position, with a few variations, as yourself so I will detail what I'm doing. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do but maybe you get some ideas.

I went with a 308 on the basis that cheap mil surplus ammo is easily available, that the rifle is capable of dealing with all UK stalking, I can get hunting ammo from about 123 grains up to 200+, I can get ammo in nearly every shop and if I want to reload there is lots of scope and advice available.

While other calibres were better in some, or many, areas than the 308 I was of the view that few offered the broad range of abilities that the 308 does and the "common as muck" factor swung it for me as a beginner. Maybe when I progress a bit then I might look at something more specific but in the mean time the 308 does everything better than I can do it.

I joined a local target club and currently have my application for a 308 for target shooting pending. I am doing the DSC1 in August but because I am in Northern Ireland if I get the rifle on for target shooting then I can take it to Scotland for deer without needing the variation for deer in my home territory. There are no restrictions on buying expanding ammo in NI. You may also find that you could put the rifle on for target shooting in England and then take it to Scotland for deer but I don't know and you'd have to check very carefully. Although I might actually have access to stalking here I am interested in red deer on the moor and so currently have little interest in stalking at home.

So far I've only shot one deer and like you I have some concerns about my shooting ability. However, through joining a target shooting club I've had scope to practise a little with both a 308 and also a .22. Unfortunately the positions we can practise in are somewhat limited and that raises some concerns for the DSC1 shooting test as I've no chance to practise sitting for example. On balance I'd say that you should certainly consider joining a local club. See if you can find a relatively informal one rather than a very formal one where their only interest is in your winning Bisley or the Olympics! Any practise you can get is worthwhile and you will get lots of advice and help from fellow club members if you can find somewhere friendly. You may also find lots of club members who are also interested in deer and that can only help. I've certainly been very lucky with the club I'm in and I'm starting to get some confidence in my shooting despite the occasional mad flier on my part.

You can see some pics from my New Year stalking here:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5421043/m/358109197

If you have been stalking a few times I'd be pretty confident you could do the DSC1 but it might take you a while to get a course arranged etc, BASC do courses so you can check with them. In your position I think I'd get into a club while I waited for my DSC and then start applying for my FAC. Apart from anything else the target club would offer you a backup positon should your firearms officer want you to show more experience or a DSC cert before he will give you a rifle for deer. If you are in a club you could at least start looking for your ideal rifle and get it on for target shooting in the interim. You could later apply for the variation for deer.

I hope that some of this is useful or at least gives you some ideas. Good luck with it, it is a daunting undertaking and a very complex process but I am hopeful that I'm going to be successful and I have a Blaser R93 in 308 waiting to come home :-)

thanks for the feedback chaps but i'm rapidly becoming unable to decide on calibre though the rest is crystalizing!

On the one hand that man caorach speaks the truth and 308 is the sensible choice but on the other Pete E dangerously hints at the charms of the 6.5 and 270 in all their economically and logistically flawed glory. That last is possibly what makes me want one nontheless as i suppose stalking is an econmically and logistically flawed way for me to enjoy my spare time in the first place.

hmm...

As you say Amir this isn't all about logic so if there is a calibre you fancy then have at it.

A fellow club member was talking to me about the 308 and expressed the view that he wished he'd kept his 308 rather than traded it for a 270. He expressed a particular dislike for the recoil of the 270. Perhaps this is limited to his particular rifle and will not apply in your case but worth trying the 270 to see. Another advantage of joining a club I suppose as there will probably be someone who will let you have a shot or two.

That is very good advice mate; I’m having difficulty finding one near where I live in West London or in fact accessible at all,

I wanted to put in the FAC app in the beginning of April so if anyone knows of a club admitting members in the London area I would be most obliged!

There is one MAJOR problem with the 270 in some countries. In that it is not a 7mm! My advice if you are thinking of France and maybe board shooting in Germany is to get a 7mm-08. This is a non-military calibre, cartridges are available widely in France, but it is also that "magic" size 7mm to satisfy the German minimum calibre requirement.

Also popular in France is 280 Remington and 7x64. You can buy a very good CZ550 rifle in 7x64 which ahs a five shot magazine etc., etc. One unmentioned problem with military calibres in France is that, being prohibited, no gun shop will stock the cartridges as there is of course no market!

Loathe as I am to say it for West London I would advise the NRA at Bisley! Oh...how it sticks in my mouth! Better still, and they shoot at Bisley, would be the British Sporting Rifle Club.

If you are a member of BASC then you have access to stalking through the BASC Members' Stalking Scheme. And for that you DO NOT NEED DCS.

Don't waste your money on the BDS. I would not give them a penny. Certain aspects of how they have conducted themselves in the past are a disgrace. I do not know what advantage they will offer you for the cost of the subscription. You would be better off spending that money elsewhere.

I would agree that it is probably worth your while going down to visit the British Sporting Rifle Club at Bisley; it's unlikely you will find anywhere any closer to W. London where you can use CF at a reasonable range.

As regards stalking conditions; I have recently gone through this as a fellow novice. I was told I could not have a condition until I had completed my DSC 1 qualification, despite having permission over land with deer, having a mentor prepared to supervise me, and having booked stalking too. This was with Kent Police.

The difficulty suddenly evaporated when I pointed out (in writing) that this was not in accordance with the published Home Office Guidance, and the advice given by BASC and the BDS. I also spoke to BASC who were very helpful and very concerned that Police Forces were doing this. Based on BASC's advice I insisted that I received a written copy of their refusal to grant my condition, which they were not best thrilled about. Two weeks later my FEO called and told me I'd been granted 7mm RemMag for Deer and .243 for Fox and Deer with no conditions whatsoever. The only caveat I would add to that was that I have proffessional experience with firearms, so there was no basis on which they could claim I would be unsafe.

thank you 63 and Enfieldspares. I'll check out the BSRC and the NRA, but would someone take a moment and explain to a nugget like me why Bisley is held in such esteem? ( irony here )

It seems that most people have something against one or other of the shooting organisations but nearly everyone seems to hate the NRA and by proxy i assume Bisley. Please enlighten me!

I think that many feel the NRA are rather snobby and unenlightened with regards to the wider range of shooting sports and the wide range of participants from different social backgrounds. Owing to the name, comparisons are drawn to the US NRA who are much more of an umbrella organisation for gun ownership and use generally, whereas our NRA are strictly a target shooting body, and a very regulatory one at that. They also seem to encourage the mentality that Bisley is the only place in the UK where shooting occurs and where shooting infrastructure should be invested in (ref the Olympics for example) which doesn't endear them to Northerners, for example.

Personally, I am suspicious of anyone who wears that much tight leather without stilletos.

Personally, I quite like Bisley as a place; it has an agreeably old fashioned air with all its little bungalows and its a bit like stepping back into the 1900s. I can see why some don't like that though.

just sent BRSC a request for info.

All this business of seconds and so on reminds me of the venerable debating society at school!

lets us hope its not too close a comparison

I must confess Amir that some clubs are most certainly going to be a bit like your school debating society and they seem to revel in this. I have some experience of this.

In saying that don't let it put you off. Most of the actual people in these clubs turn out to be normal humans just like you and me and while you may have to put up with a bit of the "old boys club" stuff there is still lots to learn. I'd suggest you just go along and enjoy yourself and ignore the snide remarks.

I have also found that while many clubs want you to be proposed and seconded and so on if you turn up and are a reasonable person I'd bet you can find someone to propose and second you. I'm not saying that they bend the rules in any way, just that if you are a reasonable person then there is no reason for them not to propose you. Shooting as a sport is keen on new members as they are the future and both you and me fit that bill.

You will find that target shooting is very formal and totally unlike shooting in the field what with people telling you what to do all the time. However, once you realise that this is just a framework within which you must operate then, providing you are safe, you should learn a lot. I certainly have in the short time I've been engaging in this and it really is worth doing.

So, my advice would be not to be put off by the "old boys club" thing. Go along, enjoy yourself, start to make friends and ignore the attitude you might see in some and you will learn a lot and find a lot of genuine people. Some clubs have a probationary scheme so perhaps you can join along with other "beginners" and that might help a little, security in numbers and all that. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.

thanks mate, I have some experience of what i shall euphemistically, but not disparagingly call "institutions steeped in history and tradition" and so the its not the particular sort of braying laugher i'm aprehensive about but rather the expressions of polite horror that a newbie's antics are likely to raise!

Offend at bisley? Eh Gads! Get's one blackballed from the club house old boy!

Hi,

When I applied for my FAC for the first time with the Thames valley police they as Pete E said wanted me to do my DSC1 for my licence to be granted. But as well as this they were also keen for me to complete the level 1 riflecraft course - which is described by riflecraft as being the minimum level police like to see about competency, or something along those lines. Suffice to say I wouldn't recommend the riflecraft course. The police also wanted the name and contact details of the stalker I had been out with previously so they could check out my story. I started off with the 6.5 x 55 as it's a good all round rifle and will kill every species of deer in the UK with ease.

Hi Amir,

It's good to see that you are still out stalking. Say Hi to Rick for me when you see him. I have been trying to get down there but have not managed it for the last few months. Been far too busy.

As for your calibre decision I would agree with what the others say regarding the 270. Personally I wouldn't touch one with yours!! There are only two rifles I've seen in 270 that I woudl use and they beloong to IanF and Artemis. Both are significantly loaded down and do the job, but apart from case and bore diameter they are not representative of the 27-0 as we know it. Any case in the 243/260/7-08 or 308 range will do anything you want them to do. The first three will also be non military. Ammo can befound fo all and I'm sure rick will be able to fix you up with 100 rounds plus of what you need and that should last you a while.

Like has been mentioned on other threads, look at the rifle you wish to buy, it's configuration, fit and function before you get hung up on calibre. We all go there but realistically they all do pretty much the same thing.

By the way, (and Rick will certainly confirm this with a chuckle...) we all buy our first rifle thinking it will be the one and only that we will want/need. If you are anything like me and I'm sure some others here, then it won't be long before you are looking for a bigger cabinet... Specifica for abroad can be dealt with later once you are up to sped with UK stalking and confident enough to take a rifle abroad to hunt.

Best regards,
FB

Hi Kiri,

Good to hear from you and I will certainly give Rick your regards! He's been crazy busy over the last few months and has been hanging up on people and not answering e-mails and all sorts

i'm still waiting for him to email the photo's from my last trip!

I've booked another outing for the weekends of the 8th of MArch and 19th April so GIve us a buzz if you are going to be around.

The calibre choice has boiled down to a choice between 6.5 x 55 and 308 win. I take colective wisdom on the rifle handling test. Where is te best place around london to actually handle a few? i've applied to join the BSRC and so hopefully i'll have more opportunity to shoot different rifles in a few months.

Ps. planning a gathering in weybridge surrey and going to spit roast a deer in 10th MAy and hence the need to shoot a deer on the dates given above!

all are welcome to come along, it would be nice to meet some of you and to have help eating all the meat!

Regards,

Amir

Hi Amir,

the spit roast venison sounds good. you obviously have some experience here but if I may be bold enough to give a handy hint..

Try and get hod of some caul fat fromone of the ethnic butcher and wrap the beast in it after it is mounted on the spit. Venison has the tendency to dry out over coals, and the caul will help counter that.

As for the choice of gun I tink for a first gun either of those mentioned are an excellent choice of calibre, and I'd probably eer on the side of the 6.5mm if I had to choose. As for the gun itself it will really depend on your budget. To start with something like a Tikka T3 would be great and if you want to tweak it later then theat is very doable. Sako's and Sauers are also an option, but the old adage s very true about spend your money on the Scopa and the change on the rifle.

I would reccomend you ask rick to find you a secondhand kit that is setup already. These turn up fairly often and if you are happy with either of the calibres you can give yourself more options. Put in your FAC application for both calibres and if the cops query it you can explain that you intend to only buy one for now and the other later on. Remember when making your application to also applly for moderators as they are classifies as seperate firearms on your ticket. Again just because you have it on there doesn't mean you have to buy it.

Good luck and I'll keep my ear to the ground if anythign suitable turns up in tose calibres.

Rgds,
FB

Oupa La!

Thanks for the tip about the caul, i was going to see how much how much back fat the beast had and go from there, usally i baste with melted lamb fat but it would be nice to have it self lubing so to speak

to repeat the invitation it would be great to meet you, i'll do a thread about it at some point, can even have an air rifle shoot off on the land!

If you think applying for a 308 and 6.5 is the way forward then by all means but the FEO I spoke to said that I needed to justify each and every rifle and he wasn't a fan of "overlap". Buggered if I know what that that means i take it to mean he wants me to have just one gun?

Also I will want to go target shooting in order to practice but have made only the intial steps in joining a club. Will it be possible to put down both 308 and 6.5, in each case for deer, fox and target?

Ta,

Amir

243 and fixed 6x42. Preferably moderated unless you are willing to wear ear protection in the field.

When your club 'experts' tell you you can't shoot deer with a 243 or a fixed scope you can sell it easily.

In all seriousness a first rifle is unlikely to stay with you for the rest of your life. Buy something popular first off.

If you really get on well and keep it then add a 30-06 with a 1.5-6x42. Later on you could make a case for a mid range 6.5x55 say.

Good luck

What do you fellas make of the 'overlap' argument?
I used the 'small deer'/'big deer' argument to get the 243/270/375 and don't plan on buying anything else (for now), but how would one go about justifying both a 6.5x55 and a .308?

Good luck with whatever you choose, make sure you let us know how the application process goes!

Cheers

Gabriel

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Also I will want to go target shooting in order to practice but have made only the intial steps in joining a club. Will it be possible to put down both 308 and 6.5, in each case for deer, fox and target?

Hi Amir,

It sounds to me like you are making progress already. From what I can gather they are unlikely to allow the 308 for foxes, and probably not the 6.5 either and as you say you might run into overlap problems. Your FAO might be more generous but from what I can gather the biggest they will allow for fox is 243 and even that is with some reluctance. However, I should imagine they will allow both deer and target for either calibre. Your situation might differ.

However, it is good to hear that you are moving things along and you will find that there is plenty to be doing between now and getting your FAC. You will need to be in the club some time before they can approve your application for a rifle for target shooting, here it is at least a year, but the time isn't long in passing and I think it is best to have that option open. Another thing which might be worth thinking about is if there are any small bore clubs very local to you? I know it isn't quite what you want but it is cheap practise and if you could get to shoot on a regular basis then that is useful. Small bore with open sights at 50 or 100 yards is a lot of fun for £6 per 100 rounds.

Gabriel, my very very limited experience would incline me to suspect that getting both a 308 and a 6.5 for deer is going to require a very sympathetic FAO, though I know people with significant numbers of rifles in the 6 - 8mm range who have them on for target.

Hello mate, thanks for the reply.

I wanted fox as it apparently illegal to shoot a fox at the landowners behest without the relevant condition on your FAC. In some circles you would be dragged off to have your fundement exposed in the market square for refusing to shoot a fox!

I don't really want to instigate a test case or something but just want one rifle for taking deer and any thing else i'm likely to be asked to cull by the landowner. Wife, mother-in-law and other "special" requests excepted of course!


i'm happy to put in for 6.5 "for deer stalking and foxshooting" with explanations in a covering letter. If they make a fuss then 243 for fox and deer and target and 308 for deer and target.

Also not sure what to put in the "where to be used" box @ q19, erm wherever i can afford is the best i can come up with at this point!

Hmm........

Amir,

Your FEO should not refuse you the licence for Fox for a 308 if you explain that fox would be a target of opportunity while out deer stalking. They will not licence for primary use on fox, but the guidelines allow for secondary licencing.

You should know that the Back fat on deer can sometimes be a bit bitter. It isn't creamy like amb of pig fat so I tend to remove it and discard. Please take some photo's when you do it. I'm assuming you will be spit roasting it whole? If so could yu let me know where you got the spit from as I'm looking for one myself rather than get mine sent over from Cyprus.

As for refusing to shoot foxes, let's not go there..... there are some members (read just one member) here for whom I give up on...

FB

FB,

thanks for the heads up, i've roasted many a lamb on the spit but no deer so please don't hesitate to share your tips. As a bubble you are one of the very few people i am willing to take the advice of on this sort of thing!

the spit I welded up myself as nothing available would burn wood and charcoal and handle the 150 kg pig we needed to cook. It was for a graduation party and cost £50 in metal and parts. Good design if I may say so myself with electric motor for slow rotation and fully adjustable. Scaffolding pole for the spit itself allows you to drill lots of holes for the cross pieces and so on. It also is bolted together for transport.

If you are handy with the welder it is not to much trouble to knock one together, but you can borrow mine anytime if you are in need, its big enough for a 5ft pig or quite a few chickens. one year we did various birds in size order along the spit! I'll dig around for pictures ........