Guys,

I'm thinking of getting myself a 'combi' gun. Tending towards .243win + 20 bore. Information as to what manufacturers produce these firearms, and any experiences or thoughts would be very helpful. Any to avoid?

I am unlikely to be spending a great amount of money on this - it's only a toy rather than my primary stalking tool!

Rgds Ian

Hello from Scotland~

Ian i went though a phase when i really fancied a combi, very nearly bought one thats before the lever action bug bite hard !

I came across a combi of Germanic origin i can't remember the maker, boy was she pretty ! 6.5x57mm / 16 bore i very nearly fell in love she was lovely, in hind sight i should have bought her, ive not seen any thing like her since

Best of luck and enjoy

Englander

I think BRNO do a combi gun but finding how to get one will be interesting.

Holts often have them at auction for sensible money.

I have a 25+ year old AntonioZoli 12-7x57R and hair trigger, which is a gun I really treasure. It has endured some rough handling over the years and is far beyond the point where it can be sold for any decent sums. It shoots incrediby tight groups - sub MOA definetly but I will say no more... Every time I go into details people react with disbelief. One need to keep the loads HOT and wait an hour between the shots, however.



When I was 15, I made a head shot on a black grouse at 200 m distance with that gun. No, I will never admit it was a lucky shot! But these things tend to get one to really cherish a gun.



Forget about placing the bullet on the lands though when loading for this rifle, there are no such long bullets! I've got a couple of project ins the pipe for that one, it will be a great caperquaille gun during the fall when I develop a reduced load for it.



It has some potential to become my primary tracking gun, to be used when tracking wounded roe deers. A 7x57R barrel and a load of buckshots sounds just like the perfect combo for this task.



Regards,

/HerrBerg

HerrBerg.

I am tending towards your calibre combination - tell me though - how much meat damage do you get when hunting Capercaille with an FMJ? Wondering whether it would be an idea to go with a 30 cal - so that the gun could do double duty for driven hunts when loaded with slug and appropriate rifle ammo!

Rgds Ian

Just about anything will do, round nose FMJ's in moderate speeds will do their job and lots of people hunt black grouse and capercaille with 7mm, .30 or even larger calibers. Size is not half as important as speed and bullet design shen it comes to meat damage. I would not hesitate the least bit to go for capercaille or black grouse with a .30. The hunter can do his best to lessen meat damage, if there are several shootable birds available then pick one that is facing you in order to minimize meat damage.

I'm a great fan of rimmed cartridges in combi guns because of the simplicity of the gun's extractors. In subzero temperatures one can never trust anything to work according to plans and the rimmed cartridge gives me a little extra confidence in the gun. 7x57R is legal for anything in Sweden, provided bullets of proper weight and construction are used and it is the single most popular caible in combi guns here. I do, however, mostly us my combi gun for driven hunts on roe deers.

Ian, if price is an important factor, see if you could locate one of the older Valmet or Tikka over/under combinations. They had the advantage of having barrels that were were not soldered together (just like the new Blasers). That makes them somewhat easier to sight in - i.e. you don't have to wait for the barrel to cool down to fire a second shot. In a hunting situation (excluding driven hunts) I have found it pretty rare to need a second shot, so a gun with soldered barrels is less of a problem.

The Valmets and the Tikkas look a bit odd, and they have an external hammer, but a lot of people swear by them as far as accuracy is concerned.

Other lower price options could include some of the Italian over and under combinations or a Brno.

In a combination, breaktop gun you always have to consider 2 things:
1) strength of the action. In particular when buying a second hand gun, you have to watch out for an action that has been shot loose. The strength of the action is also a factor when you consider caliber - although I think a .243 should not be a problem these days.
2) triggers. It is not that many years ago that the first decent triggers were introduced to combination guns (Blaser and Krieghoff). In many combination guns, you have to rely on set triggers for a decent trigger pull, and the difference between 1st (set) and 2nd (mostly unset) trigger may well be quite pronounced.

As stated by post above, the better brands are Blaser, Krieghof, Heym and Merkel.

Good luck - mike

As far as I heard, has Brno stopped the production of the combi guns.

Don't forget Sauer & Sohn for the combi guns.

Not soldered barrel you will get by Tikka (Valmet), Blaser and Krieghoff.

I use mine (an old Krieghoff 7x65R-16) often.

I think, a very important question for combo buyers is - one or two locks?
Having 2 locks gives you the chance to change barrels to a double riflebarrel gun, which is ideal for drive hunting.
The Frankonia price for a Blaser 95 one lock rifle/shotgun is 1775 EURO for the 2 lock Blaser 97 is 2111,- EURO.
Krieghoff starts with 2988,- EURO, Merkel 1920,- EURO.
Best price I found was a U/O by Sabatti (Italy) for 964,- EURO

Next question free flotated barrels?

Than which trigger one or two or go the Krieghoff way (UAS)



Burkhard

You don't want a Sabatti. I promise you. Worst piece of trash on the market.

IanF
Here's a lik to an older thread on a similar question:
What combination gun to.........

For me the combination gun is the most important gun in my battery - I use it a lot (could probably do 90% of my hunting with it if I was forced to!)
If I were you I would stay away from non-rimmed rounds - especially on the cheaper guns! Why? -> More stuff that can go wrong! It's harder to make a simple and good mechanism for getting non rimmed cartridges out of the gun. Sometimes they jump the extractor - you have to dissasemble the gun or pry the cases out of it. It is also harder to get the case out with frosen/gloved fingers!!!! If using a rimmed cartridge you just turn it upside down and the case will fall out.....
Stay away from the savage combination guns and, as mentioned above, the ones made by sabatti!

For my self I'll probably look into a merkel slII for this years season - looks good, feels good and shoots even better....

Cheers
K9

A picture of my Blaser:


WH

Erik

Nice gun! This looks like the "700/88" series, still with soldered barrels. The newer 95/97 (e.g. BBF 95) series does not have soldered barrels, a different cocking mecahnism and use the scope mount from the R93. Other than that, they look pretty much the same.
- mike

I have one in .30/12 gauge and would, if pressed, not need another gun besides a double barrel 12 gauge. It is just good for anything but I wouldn�t tell this my wife, though...

my gunmaker has learning his job in suhl in old time's, about Blaser he say allway's :Aussen Hui Und Innen Pfui" that mean's for you it is modern bulls... not good work like they make it in the past

Certainly these guns are manufactured in a different, more modern way. It is basically CNC-based design and manufacturing including the purchase of a many parts from suppliers. A Merkel or any gun from Ferlach is manufactured more traditionally, like in the old times, with simple tools and most inhouse.

A Porsche manufactured in the 1960s and a today's Mercedes-Benz SLK would compare in a similar way. One is a beautiful piece of machinery, the other just does it's job under all conditions in a close to perfect way. I still have to see a Blaser that doesn't shoot well.

There is, I guess, no reason not to like both philosophies.

I just can't get this idea of having a manual cocking lever on a combi gun - and there are combi guns where you have to recock the gun if you want to fire both barrels!



Open the gun, load, select barrel by using the proper trigger. That's my Antonio Zoli. If is is the case that I need to fire a second shot then I'm bloody likely to be in a hurry, so why whould I want a manual cocking for the second shot



It seems like the load of weapons nowadays are for people whose main idea of hunting is to buy a ticket for one summer night in a high seat.

Yeah, I guess that just goes to show that one gets used to the system at hand. I for my part would not be without my manual cocking mechanism for the world. I'm totally hooked on being able to have cartridges chambered, and no cocked mainsprings. I don't much trust safeties, but the manual cocking system is the best made yet - IMHO.

With regards to 1, 2 or 3 firing mechanisms ("locks" in German). I have yet to need to fire my shot and my rifle barrel (a shot/rifle combination is what this thread was about) in rapid succession. I guess it could happen, but it has not happened to me yet. At one point, I was (and still am) considering buying a rifle/rifle combination (a double rifle, but with 2 different calibers - Bergstutzen in German). I thought for a combination like that, two firing mechanisms would be ideal. After all, you'd have the quick follow-up shot for a fawn/doe combination, say. Much to my surprise, when you talk to people who chose to get the 2 firing mechanism (B97 Blaser), as opposed to the single firing mechanism version of the same gun (B95), you get the verdict: don't bother with the double firing mechanism. That I'm not making this up on my own, you can confirm by reading on the "Wild und Hund" discussion forum. The conclusion was, unless you need the second follow-up shot in a "driven game" situation, it is exceedingly rare that you need it, and the single firing mechanism has advantages in terms of safety.

Anyway, all this to inject a different opinion into the discussion, rather than attempt to convince other members about my particular opinion. We all draw our own conclusions based on individual preferences, experience and options.
- mike

Hell No! This is not a matter of opinions, I AM RIGHT ABOUT THIS!

/HerrBerg

Opinionated, or just plain RIGHT??
Actually, if this was a discussion on another forum, I would now have to tell you,
1) you had not read my post, and
2) here are all my arguments again, and
3) this is what I happen to think about you and your mother ...

Fortunately, this is a more "gentleman like" forum, so we don't have to go through all this nonsense...

- mike

Guys - as ever, thanks for the imput. It's all interesting and helps me form an opinion.

Looking like I will end up with a 30cal/12gauge combination. Probably gonna buy second hand in Italy or Germany. Local help has been offered in both areas - and as both are EU - paperwork should not be insurmountable.

Will keep you posted as to how I get along! :0)

Rgds Ian