hello baboonbreeder,
This method is not just a simple calculation, but requires a very throrough mapping of the area, in which you have to
determine how much woodland, agricultural fields and, other landscapes are available. By means of a formula each type of landscape is awarded points for the extend in which it can provide food, then shelter and finally rest. The total number of points related to the total size of the area gives you the outcome of this formula.

This is a short explanation. I have some good articles on this in Dutch and I will translate one of them into English for this forum.

Pete, I agree with you.
Over here we occasionally have black roe (from dark brown to shoepolish black, but they are very rare. In our area, about 5.000 ha, managed by 20 hunters we decided not to shoot a black buck and a black doe that were offspring from a red doe some years ago. We were able to track these animals for years and found out that the black doe was pretty loyal to her territoty, whereas the buck travelled around a lot, especially during the rut. Every now and then we lost sight of it, sometimes for a few months when it was spotted in other areas, miles away but then it was back again. It was shot at the age of 5.
The black doe produced 5 calves, 1 of which was also brownish-black, the others were red. It disappeared during the winter of her 4th year, probably as a traffic victim or as the result of disease.

Any given area can provide sufficient food, shelter and rest to a number of roe. If the population grows beyond that number, you will experience more traffic victims, reduced average weights and more bucks with minor trophies mainly due to stress. Over here we try to go for quality more than quantity. So for a given area we calculate the number of roe that can live there according to the availablity of food, shelter and rest and try to manage the population to be as close to that number as possible.
As I said above, average weights and number of traffic victims are the key indicators that warn you if a population grows beyond its limits.

Some years ago we experienced the sudden collaps of a total population in the North of our country, where hunting was prohibited by an organisation, similar to your National Trust, but anti- hunting. The population grew for more than 10 years, and at a given moment some dead animals were found. Within a few weeks about thirty animals died. The animals were examined by vets and no signs of diseases could be found.
Scientists finally agreed the animals had died of the ill-effects of competition and stress: or the lack of balance between food, shelter and rest!

Since then more and more anti-hunting organisations and individuals have come to realise that banning hunting backfires on you sooner or later and the influence of these people on legislation has been gradually decreasing, thank God!

Hello 1984

I hunt roe in the Netherlands and I agree. Doe hunting is as rewarding as shooting a nice buck in Summer. You have to judge quality by the way they behave and move, which I find more difficult than judging quality by the size of antlers (in which I don't believe by the way) Another advantage is that you can often judge the quality of a doe by the calves that are with her. If I see a doe with small or otherwise unhealthy calves, I try to take away the group as a whole, which creates more possibilities for strong does to reproduce and their calves to thrive.

I have hunted deer, boar, caribou, mouflon but if I would have to limit myself to just one species, it would defenitely be roe. In our small overcrowded country the population has grown to an estimated 60.000 heads and is still increasing by the year. I find it amazing the way these animals have adapted themselves to conditions over here.

Hi FB,
Thanks heaps for that...boy will that change my opinion in a few short steps!!! Which is exactly why I posted actually coz I don't really know much about their behavioral traits & social structure...please could you let me know where you got your information and I will try to do some of my own research here as well...if any other Swedish hunters or anybody here actually can provide me with information about other respected sources for information about Roe deer, their behaviour & breeding biology/social stucture etc I would be most greatful. I can read Swedish and English.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations. Happy hunting!

HiBaboonbreeder,

I have the same attitude to my fallow stalking, and shoot mainly bucks/prickets. However with Roe I was reading a different perspective recently. The book stated that due to the way roe pair and breed, the bucks were the important ones to keep because they create territories and call in females. This is obviously more important in marginal areas rather than areas with high population densities. Coupled with the fact that Fawns have a 40% survival rate in their first winter (based on scottish numbers I think...) it is advised to shoot fawns first.

To be honest the only roe I shoot are when I'm asked to shoot one for a mate or when I go to scotland for that reason. As such I don't know that much about the animal on the whole, but I thought this was interesting in comparison to Fallow.

BTW, who read about the proposal to shoot a third of the South East UK deer population in the papers on Sunday? Insane huh... especially since they are goingto end up paying people to do it!!!

FB

baboonbreeder

If you want *the* book on Roe , "The Roe Deer: Conservation of a Native Species" by Richard Prior is probably the best book available in English at the present.



Prior is probably the UK's leading expert on Roe and the book covers not only Roe in the UK, but Europe, and Russia too. Its not a hunting book, but a reference work on the deer themselves although stalking and trapping roe is mentioned. The downside is that the book is expensive at around 75Euros



If you want books on stalking Roe again I would recommend two of Priors more recent books "Roe Deer: Management & Stalking" and "Modern Roe Stalking".. Prior has writen many other books on roe stalking and if you see any of his books it pays to look how old they are as I feel the later ones are more up todate.



Another book which I can highly recommend is by Peter Carne and is called "Woodland Stalking"..its contains brief information on all 6 of our species of deer but the bulk of the work is about woodland stalking in general. All the books mentioned have good photos and drawings, but I like Carne in particular for these.



Regards,



Pete



(edited when I had a bit more time!)

I read that the weight of calfs/fawns shot should be recorded and used as a measure of the health of the overall population over the years.

Hey Raindeer!
Interesting post that speaks a lot of sense. I am interested to hear more about how you calculate your carrying capacity of deer:available land + food. Can you give me a brief outline of how you figure that out...I am looking into getting copies of some of the books already mentioned in this thread and maybe they will explain some more about that, but in the meantime any additional information you can give will be appreciated.

Thanks
Andy

Hej Martin!
Excellent - tack s� mycket f�r tips! I need a few more things to put on my julklapp list...not that my list needs more options, but I have a feeling that the .476 Westley Richards matching pair that I asked for won't happen this year nor the new Orvis so I guess R�djuret might be in there with a chance...especially as it deals with Swedish/Scandinavian Roe deer. I saw huge differences in behaviour/weight and lots of other things between traits common in East African animals and those of Southern African animals when I lived in Zimbabwe, so I reckon the same rules will almost definitely apply here.

All the best!

Andy