Its gone awfully quiet ..... Would anyone on weeks four and five like to update us?

Bringing this back to the top guys, would ANYONE/GRIFF Etc like to update us on events after Week 3?

my guess, it involves alot of rain!!!!!

Sorry guys been drying out!
Rain,rain and more rain has been the order of the day for what seems to be an eon.
Total of 34 stags for the season..
Most weeks had the same theme, rain all day,fine at night,combined with a full moon made life very difficult.
we had two weeks on the trot that the only day it didn't rain was a Wednesday and we had stags a plenty on both those days..
The rut finally kicked off on the last week of the stags with most beats hearing roaring.

14 1yr olds
8 2yr olds
5 3yr olds
3 4yr olds
3 5yr olds
1 6yr old

regards
griff

It's 04.30 a.m., Thick fog, Just getting last minute items in the truck before leaving Chester, picking up Flyboy .270 on the way, Going to see if you lot have left anything to shoot on Arran!

Best of luck, hope you got plenty of thick socks packed! Await with interest to hear an Arran woodland hind report, hope the fog is not too problematical all week.

Well done. Beautiful country, not too different from hereabouts. Thank you for the pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by griff:

14 1yr olds
8 2yr olds
5 3yr olds
3 4yr olds
3 5yr olds
1 6yr old

What is the general view on the age distribution Griff? I know that there are usually a few people each year who get cracking heads. Are people not culling older animals or do you think there are few or no older animals on the ground?

Do you age the hinds as well and what sort of age profile do you see there?

My limited experience seems to indicate that many of the larger Hebridean estates would cull 30 - 40 stags per year and this seems to fit with your numbers.

After an uneventful drive up to Ardrossan, we arrived on Arran in good time at the Machrie range, shot in, & proceeded on to the allotted beat, (K) we have had this beat & several adjoining it on many visits to the island, So we thought we should be successful soon,a serious depth of snowfall (low down @ 8"/ tops @ 24") had frozen very hard in many areas, so we sounded like we were approaching over light bulbs, On one of our tours around our ground I saw a total of six hinds with two calves in tow, but being unable to close the distance to any reasonable extent no shot was taken, Mike stalked into a bunch after a very prolonged tip toe'ing exercise, & had the misfortune to place his foot on a very loudly breaking chunk of hidden ice,resulting in a bombburst situation that may only have given us a kill had we been using shotguns , No signs of any description were seen on the high tops, & the usual very heavy signs down low were much reduced suggesting that the remaining small population of deer, are now on land outside the forestry lease, This is a view held by many locals, as at the time of posting this, at least one person has taken a reported 43 deer on next door properties, in our humble opinion, (we have been using this scheme since the Galloway one finished), there are very, very, few deer on the lease.On a lighter note you may see some photo's of the Arran in winter collection, and also some depicting difficulties in winter driving conditions on the beat, although Mike may choose to call it "operator error" Steve:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Latham:
Af No signs of any description were seen on the high tops, & the usual very heavy signs down low were much reduced suggesting that the remaining small population of deer, are now on land outside the forestry lease, This is a view held by many locals, as at the time of posting this, at least one person has taken a reported 43 deer on next door properties, in our humble opinion, (we have been using this scheme since the Galloway one finished), there are very, very, few deer on the lease.

Steve

There are a lot of people holding very similar opinions regarding the deer numbers on the leases.

Taken from another forum it was posted yesterday,

quote:

Originally posted by Sako 75 243

just got back from a very enjoyable trip on Arran, I witnessed 5 deer shot in 8 days with me getting one big hind. Me and my stalking partner glassed and bumped plenty of deer. I will be going back next year. Its a dead cert you will not see or shoot deer from the Auchrannie bar so get walking.

I stopped at the Morvern House B&B only £22 a night they made up a pack lunch everday and they were very friendly. Tel: 01770 860254

Thanks again to Neil and Bob.

As an addendum to my earlier post, some of the stalkers on our week decided to take themselves off to Arran estates to shoot deer, having assessed the beat allotted them, these guys were not first timers either, I will be making efforts to recover my booking fees for the standby week in January, When you start a deer management program with a finite number of beasts, you have to understand that if the cull is achieved year on year, the population will virtually collapse if it the lease is not rested.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:
Taken from another forum it was posted yesterday,

quote:

Originally posted by Sako 75 243

just got back from a very enjoyable trip on Arran, I witnessed 5 deer shot in 8 days with me getting one big hind. Me and my stalking partner glassed and bumped plenty of deer. I will be going back next year. Its a dead cert you will not see or shoot deer from the Auchrannie bar so get walking.

5 deer in 8 days between how many stalkers?

Baring in mind this is scottish red hind stalking, not mouflon or ibex hunting I'd be looking for 5 deer to my own rifle not shared amongst many.

Before DJM leaps on his horse to ride into the sunset. I appreciate the weather plays a major factor.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Latham:
As an addendum to my earlier post, some of the stalkers on our week decided to take themselves off to Arran estates to shoot deer, having assessed the beat allotted them, these guys were not first timers either, I will be making efforts to recover my booking fees for the standby week in January, When you start a deer management program with a finite number of beasts, you have to understand that if the cull is achieved year on year, the population will virtually collapse if it the lease is not rested.

Steve

You'll haver to join the queue regarding retrieval of your booking fee.

As you say the jar only holds so much jam.

DJM You did not say where you saw Deer shot, perhaps it was with Arran Estates, as half the stalkers on the BASC scheme seemed to have gone there instead. Or Danny an Ducan on a beat rarely shot in the west, which probably still holds some deer. Believe me, I covered Auchelefan and Cairn Ban beats and saw no sign in the snow. Only beasts seen were in the river bottom, nothing was seen in the lamp coming off the beats from Auchelefan to Dyemill in 6 days. Deer numbers are seriously depleted due to havesting outside of the beats, estimated at 100 taken this year over Farmland.
I did stalk up to 35m from a lone stage of 14 points on Friday at the northern part of K beat, Auchelefan. It is a shame this resource has been mismanaged, and the effect of outside pressure on the Deer population not taken into account in the overall scheme of things. Let us hope lessons can be learned from this experience. I doubt there will be anything left to shoot in the south by next year.

quote:

Flyboy270

DJM didn't see any beasts shot, he was simply copying a post by somebody else on the same subject from a different forum, for our information.

BTW, The FC would probably disagree about the deer numbers being mismanaged; a very low density probably suits them down to the ground in fact...

Regards,

Peter

Of course BASC only provide the opportunity for their members to go stalking, they don't provide a guarentee that there will be any deer.

5 deer in 8 days split between 2 or more stalkers is a poor result on the hinds... Given there are usually upto a dozen then draw your oewn conclusions.

FB

Received a phone call from Chris Brooks at Marford mill this morning, informing me that the standby week is cancelled & booking fees to be returned forthwith, I let him know that I would be happy to stalk on any further Scottish leases that may come about in the future & that he had anything to do with as regards the setting-up, & with the likes of Griff out on the ground.Steve.

Just for the record, the statistics tell the story, ratio of stalks to beast shot this year:
29 : 1, yes you read correctly, 29 individual stalks, say a morning or evening results in one deer shot. Even allowing for a few novices this must tell us something. Make up your own mind.

My History at Arran: First visit: Hind & Calf Jan 2006, Stags Sept: 2007: zero, Hinds Feb 2007: 13, Hinds Nov 2007: 5, Hinds Feb 2008, 1, Hinds Dec 2008: zero

I think that, on the other hand, BASC should be praised for actually getting "public stalking", accessible to all its members, at a reasonable fee. And with no need for the "old boy network" or at an exhorbitant price.

Marford Mill is to be praised for that and I hope that the areas where the scheme could be considered are increased from three to four and so on. And they have the integrity to cancel the reserve weeks not yet shot.

Many other "concerns" would take the money and then just walk the rifle out let alone show them a beast.

29 to 1 is disappointing, yes. But at least BASC has started to make this sort of thing availbale to its members and that is to the good.

Is the 29:1 ratio your ratio 270 or the official figures?

One of the difficulties I think that is overlooked is that unlike being taken out on the hinds you are being let loose on a large block that you do not know.

Consequently the returns are low, as there would be on most hind stalking without the ghillie holding your hand.

From what has been posted, It would seem that a number of the people attending wanted a shooting gallery, and were disappointed to find typically difficult forestry stalking.

If the scheme is being run to a cull plan then it should not be shot out, as only the excess is being culled. Due to out side pressures such as weather and neighboring estates culling more then this figurecan go up and down. I am guessing this is why there were reserve days.

quote:

One of the difficulties I think that is overlooked is that unlike being taken out on the hinds you are being let loose on a large block that you do not know.

A lot of stalkers on the scheme know the ground like their own back garden, Steve. just an extra little thought, Will we/us/B.A.S.C., be looking like the villains on this one?

In view of how difficult it is to get the chance of some stalking I agree that BASC are at least making an effort and doing their best for members. I've never been to Arran myself and so can't comment on the conditions on the ground but it seems that a lot of people have enjoyed their experiences there. It is also possible that a number of people have their stalking rifle on a FAC because of bookings on Arran. Based upon that alone the concept has to be seen as a success.

I guess the problem for BASC is that there will always be quite a considerable demand for such stalking but if they were to manage it on a different basis then it would place more restrictions on members. It can't be easy to balance this out and make it work for everyone.

The ratio was quoted to me, if you read my post and do the math you will see my avearge is marginally better, what I was trying to illustarte was a steady decline in deer numbers, When possible I have always stalked over the same beats on Arran to save time finding my way araound, this paid dividend on the third trip, although to be fair the weather was perfect, I was always prepared to give the scheme the benefit of the doubt and put poor returns down to weather, but after a further 3 visits it was apparent there was a serious shortage of Deer, I don't use highseats and yes I do cover the ground, all of it !

I maybe didn't quite word my post correctly, what I meant about knowing the ground was about the deer as well.

I know that on some of my ground if you have not been out on it 2-3 days a week and know the deer as well as the beat you would think that there was a shortage of deer when in fact we shoot several hundred off it.

It is always a difficult call as to whether to cover lots of ground or just sit down and wait for the deer to come to you, I don’t generally have the patience for the later.

BASC perhaps need to manage expectations better and may be this could also be reflected in a drop in price.

Yes guys, I would have to reluctantly agree with the general consensus of opinion. Without doubt the beasts are much scarcer on Dyemill beat than two years ago. Weather and a late rut may have been a factor but I watched rutting stags every afternoon up the String while there was absolutely no activity anywhere on Dyemill dawn or dusk during week three. Won't stop me booking for next year but expectations will be rather low.

Surely we can only applaude the BASC for this brilliant scheme. It seems it is being accused of mis-management when it is just a victim of its own success.Deer numbers must naturally fluctuate and pressure from outside influences such as shooting on the surrounding farmland must be considered.

B.A.S.C. doesn't do the managing, the F.C. do that, but I'm pretty sure if this carries on in the same direction, it will be B.A.S.C. & ultimately us the members, that will be seen as the guilty parties in the eyes of any anti types.

I should imagine the FC should be well pleased with the lack of deer on their Arran patch and will be offering up other leases for similar treatment. Kielder and Grizedale and some SW peninsula patches could benefit from a big influx of leisure stalking to achieve their culls. Although Arran may be a "special" experience it's location/accessibility although great for trial purposes always made for an expensive venue.
One would hope that FC have seen the revenue and deer control benefits of the scheme and should seek to keep the scheme alive by "roving" the location through their over populated / under shot forests.

It would appear we are not alone!, finally a voice with some foresight behind it, Wonder if anyone will listen?

Alan McCormick, the BASC deer officer, confirmed FC had offered several extensive leases for similar access when he was on Arran with John Swift during week three this year. I think it is merely a matter of logistics and on the ground supervision that is holding back progress on that front. Perhaps we could invite Griff to prime the pump and see what Mac has on the drawing board.

The clear felling of the southern area of Arran was not something that was seen, or though of a couple of years ago.

To shoot out the big stags that were in this area, given the pressure that has been put upon it, is not suprising .

Woodland stags are woodland stags : given no woodland - no stags.

The BASC have provided exactly what they were tasked to do. Save the cost of rangers in the area.

To provide a constant supply of beasts in an area as small as Southern Arran, for recreational stalkers, does not make sence.

This was something very special that has ( maybe ) come to an end.

Puntgunner I have just read about you trip to Arran. What a fantastic account and photos. Its made me want to try it but I am sure I could not keep up with the physical side of it. Anyway thanks again for a great read.

Grant

Guys,

I think many are missing the point here.

As has been stated elsewhere in the thread, cull numbers on surrounding farmland has gone up ten fold this season. This doensn't mean that the BASC section has succeeded through culling it has simply moved the problem elsewhere. That is something that I don't think can be viewed as a success in any light.

I'm not knocking the guys running the scheme, but if you have teams of guns out every day on stags and hinds for weeks on end the deer will move off to somewhere that they are not so harrassed. It really is as simple as that.

BASC do a good thing for providing stalking for their members on this but how many menmbers would be up there looking for the big stags if they ran the stalking themselves? You have different motivations depending on what your position is in the scheme of things.

Oh and it might be worth looking at how the FC run their cull targets before expecting a pat on the back for reducing numbers!! The fact that there are no deer on the ground means that the cull can't be achieved. There's an office bod somewhere joining up the wrong dots!!

FB

quote:

Oh and it might be worth looking at how the FC run their cull targets before expecting a pat on the back for reducing numbers!! The fact that there are no deer on the ground means that the cull can't be achieved. There's an office bod somewhere joining up the wrong dots!!

More enlightened comment at last!

Any further input from the Management stalkers on the last Arran week?

Just had an e-mail from B.A.S.C. regarding Arran 09/10, Three Stag weeks & Six Hind weeks, (reduced due to success in recent years & outsiders culling activities), also no price increase this time round

Steve ... Suggest you look at other opportunities such as driven boar in Croatia etc. for productive use of your time and money rather than Arran this year .... Your call

Already with you on this one!