I am starting to think that most of the time, roe deer are shot at with great overkill and no one seems to mind.

Neither do I for that but I just thought I would point it out.

Even a meek mannered .243 is going to exit every time unless you get a frontal shot, which in some peoples' book means that a lot of energy is being wasted.

Others prefer an exit wound which will assist profuse bleeding and help in case of having to follow up.

I know that in the UK you must use a bullet/velocity comination that creates enough energy to meet some kind criteria, which doesn't differentiate between muntjuc or red deer, so people are also forced into it by the law in those cases.

I myself am guilty of having killed roe with .300WBY and 375H&H, which were quite easy on the meat, the lithe frame not providing enough resistence to the bullet to cause expansion.

The .223rem, .222RemMAg or 5,6 x52R would be more closly matched to the roes' physique, but they are considered to be borderline by many.

Would anybody say that shooting red deer with a .460WBY was excessive? it's about the same energy/body weight ratio, just a different persepctive really.

Express,
regarding the energy you are right. The 5,6 calibres are sufficient.
Regarding the meat damage, a slow 8x57 or even the old 9,3x72R which was used by our old forest guys is better than those quick bees which cause in much more cases big h�matome, I do not like.

Same with 9,3x62 which uses a friend of me. The exit wound is just like the entry. Nothing else. The roe may walk a few meters either than with 5,6. But no problem.

We also drive with cars with 150HP in the town and do not care about the 140HP we just have for fun there.

Best regards

The margin of error with the .224 bullets i srelatively slow and you spoil regularily a lot of meat, especially when hitting the front leg bone which happens every so often. A 30/06 is overkill but with a tougher bullet like a Partition meat damage is usually low and you are prepared for boar as well. For me, the best compromise seems to be the 6,5x57R, comparable to the .257 Roberts.

My definition of overkill is the spoiling of the carcass. No calibre has a monopoly on this.

I dearly wish I could use my 222rem on English Roe. A nice summer morning stalking the spring meadows.... But sitting in a high seat in some wind overlooking hedgerows 200yards away surrounded by many hectares of oil seed rape I want a bigger bullet that is going to leave an exit and would feel immensely uncomfortable with a 222.

So I think the calibre has to be matched not only to the animal but to the method by which it is to be stalked, the habitat it will be shot in and the skill of the user.

Good comment 1894, well put. I agree entirely.

My whole post was entriely tongue in cheek, just stirring the pot...

Express

Even if you are "stirring the pot".

A friend on mine hunted roe in Germany with a friend of his. All they used were the 5.6x50mm Magnum cartridge which I believe was designed to be the minimum for roe in Germany (?).

The rifles were a lovely double in .22 Magnum on the lower barrel and 5.6x50mm rimmed on the upper barrel. I had the pleasure of shooting that rifle back here and it was very, very accurate in the 5.6 (one hole 3 shot at 100 metres) and OK in the .22 Magnum. The other rifle was 5.6x50mmR and 12g or 16g shotgun barrel(I don't remember which).

As you would know a lot of feral pigs and goats are shot here with .222s and .223s and they are bigger than roe deer.

I never heard about refuse to die by a roe deer because the caliber is overpowered or an overkiller.
Once while I was supporting a friend during a red deer hunt and I could shoot roe deer cows. One day I decided to bring with me only the 9.3x62 rifle, and leaved the 6.5x55 rifle at home.
That day I shooted two cows and a fox. None of them came to me protesting for the unadequate or unsuitable caliber that I was using.
And now in confidence, Express, tell me ... if you found a big roe deer with a gold medal trophy... and you had a .375 rifle, and moreover the deer is very near to you, no more than 50 meters,
What would you do?
Do you ask it to wait while you go to get another rifle that you consider more suitable for the hunt? Do you refuse disdainfully, because etichally reprehensible or unfair?


If your answer is yes, well call me next time because I have not these problems.

bye

Stefano, I'd have no problems at all taking a roe with a .375H&H, have done in the past, may do so again in the future...

What annoys me is people doing the "corso di selezione" then going to our local armeria and being told that the .30-06 is for fallow and the .270 is for roe because it is smaller.

Anything will work, I normally use 6PPC or .243win for roe.

Terribly annoying argument, ,moreover because they usually are novice in rifle hunts
As the "not adequate caliber discussions"
You have all my solidarity

bye

Isn't this a reloading forum? So where is the problem of hunting mice with a .375? Just develop a proper load for that purpose!

I have used a .222 for stalking roe deer for a few years now, and I am completely happy with it when I use heavy (62gr) bullets. Bear in mind that the scandinavian roe deers are somewhat larger than their continental cousins.

I have recently, however, moved over to 308Win, loaded with 180 gr Norma Oryx bullets and 44gr Norma 202. Why is that? It's just because I just bought a new rifle and I wish to try it out no luck yet however .

Regards,
/HerrBerg

Hi
And why not a 3030? itwould knock -out the largest roe and leave good blood track compared to the fast moving 22s.
danny

martin f

Thanks for those comments. When I hunted roe I used the Gamekeepers .243 but unfortunately never saw a stag which I wanted to shoot in the limited time I had to hunt.

Boar and roe are a big priority when I get back there one day.

Hi 1984
125 gr nosler bt in front of 33 gr norma 202 in my savage combination and savage340 gives 2400 fps and a good trajectory upp to 200 yds but 250 is longshot and even not recomanded in sweden for ethicall reasons.soory i don't own 94 ,but my son does and his 94 NRA commemorative is a real nice gun toshoot and hold and it could be used by 2 rounds one in magazin and one in chamber.
best regard
Danny

NitroX

I had the plesure to tour the Barossa for a day some year ago with a mate that shoots benchrest. He use to live in Adelade and he had a box of Rockford basket press waiting for him to get it at the winery. I had some truly exellent drops that day and I whished that my baggage wasn�t allready full of rifles and Maddco blanks

Roe deers!

It�s a bit tricky to get good effect and not ruin lots of meat when choosing a round for roe. The "boiler room" is really small on this deer and it�s really easy to rupture the diafram (spelling?) and penetrate the guts......

I use a 6 BR loaded with 70 gr Hornady SP:s. V/0 is at about 950 m/s. The effect is good and the bullet stands up to the speed pretty good.

The roe could take quite good hits and still be able to run 50-100 m, or more some times! This in combination with the small size makes it really hard to find it if it have made it into some grass or other cover. A dog is the only way to sort things out if the blood trail isn�t like a red line thru the forrest!

I learned a good thing from a friend on �land islands where there are PLENTY of roe deers. Allways try to shoot when the roe deer have the head rised in the air. Roe deers have long legs and when they are feeding with the head down the guts press into the chest cavity and it�s easy to mess things up with a shot. Another reason not to shoot when the head is down at the ground is that the skin is pulled back over the shoulders and will cover up the entry and exit wound when the roe rises it head (if it doesn�t fall over). This means that the blood have to zig-zag before it make it�s way out and leave a good trail.

I just got back from a roe deer stalk this eavening I didn�t see any roe deers this time.... I walked right up to a moose cow that I followed down a hillside for a good 15-20 min! She was really "big bellyed". The moose give birth to their calfs just about this time of year here in Sweden.

Stefan.

Stefan

Glad you enjoyed your visit to the Barossa.

Robert O'Callaghan's Rockford Wines Basket Press shiraz is one of the bargains of Barossa Shiraz. I believe it is still priced around A$35 per bottle. A lot of the contemporary wines were all similar priced but now are priced from $50 to over a hundred dollars.

I used to work in the same area, at one end of the same road as his winery.

Have sent you an email.

***

Good advice about roe too. Makes a lot of sense.

1894

No mails so far! Try at: stefansepost@home.se if you like to get in contact!

Glad to hear that others have discovered the 6 mm. 70 gr SP from Hdy. I have only recovered two bullets from roe deers. One was a broad side shot at aprox. 40 m (exiting stalking!) and the other one was from a friends buck that he shot at aprox. 30 M (even more exiting!) My buck at 40 m had the bullet on the exit side under the skin. My friend took a angeled shot and the bullet just passed the diafram (uack) and ripped a small hole in the guts.....

My bullet had lost all the lead an my friends had aprox 50-60 % weight. Normally I would hesitate to use a bullet that expands that much and loose the lead in that way. But the roe is a difficult kritter to deal with when it comes to choosing caliber and bullets.

The fact that I have shot about 10 roedeers with this bullets and I know a few others that swears by it�s performace make me belive it�s a good bullet for roe!

I would not use another bullet for moose if I got the same performace, but as I keep repeating, the roe is a "special case"

NitroX

I probably whent by the place you use to work at when I toured the Barossa. Mmmm sweet memorys comes back to me when I�m thinking of all the great wines I tasted that day!!!

Check your mail NitroX!

With reference to the 30-30, apart from Roe deer in Scotland, I am fairly certain this cartridge is on the border line of legality for deer in the UK. As i understand it , although of sufficient caliber, some factory loadings would be illegal from a balistics point of view.

Hi pete
it is border liner in Sweden too .It is not allowed for big game only for roe deer ,but loaded with spitzer bullets more than 155 gr @ 2300 fps would qualify as big game round.anyway i beleive those flat head bullets are better killers than spitzers on big game and 3030 is a wood round not for open coutry use.
danny

I have used 222,22/250,6PPC,270 308 and 30/06.
on Roe.
The calibre that stood out as the 'right tool for the job'was the 6PPC ,using the 70 Hornady Soft Point.( NOT SX )
Deadly,minimal damage and good exit hole.
I was working in an area, which was 'shoot on sight' because of tree damage.
I shot a Roe buck,which was was almost facing away from me,at 100m. The blt entered 3"forward of his rear right leg.
I was interested to see what the spent 70g Horn'would look like because I'd never recovered one.
To my surprise the bullet had exited its chest.
If Roe deer is your bag buy a 6PPC.(If you also shoot 'varmints' the 70g SX will shoot identical with no data change).
Have also shot 4 fallow which where all 1 shot kills but not a good test as perfect broadside 105-230m.
The 22's were good killers but had poor exit.
The 270,308 and'06 were ok but after the muzzle flipped I found it hard to mark where the deer went down and I spent many anxious moments looking in the wrong spot.
Cheers Rob T.

[ 06-05-2003, 15:03: Message edited by: Rob T ]

As an American It is interesting to read the Euroean posts about caliber recommendations.

Rob T's suggestion of a 6 PPC with a Hornady 70 gr SX, that is considered a varmint bullet in the USA. Most would not consider it ethical for use here on deer at all. Yet it did the job for Rob just fine.

If the Roe Deer are required to have a caliber minimum of a 5.6 x50 in Germany, they can not be too big.

Reading these posts which are from all over the world, it is interesting to see how that LAWS seem to influence people's orientations to what cartridges will do what. What is illegal or not considered ethical in one place, is done all the time in other places, and the cartridge works just fine.

Still back to it mainly depends on bullet placement and how well one can put the bullet where it needs to go. And matching the bullet to the game. I have seen game shot with a fast large 30 caliber bullet, and pass right thru game and never had a chance to open up. The game's skin and vitals offered no resistance to the bullet so it did not get to open and passed right thru. I have seen small bullets drop big game.

Thank you for your interesting prospectives from the other side of the pond.

It�s good to hear about others that have had good results with the 6 mm Hdy. 70 gr SP on roe deers!

Seafire!

Read Rob T:s post one more time! He stated clearly that he uses the 70 gr SP on deer, NOT the SX!

Stefan

Dear'British
I'm glad somebody is paying attention.
Unfortunately I am not privvy to Stalking in England as everywhere seems to be very closed shop.
All of my Roe Stalking has been in the Border Counties of Scotland.Where, as you know ,all the aforementioned calibres are legal.
The fallow I mentioned where shot in the republic of Ireland where up to fairly recently 5.56x57 was the MAXIMUM caibre for deer which consisted of Fallow Sika and Red,scary stuff!,The Max cal'was revised and now is .270.

Cheers Rob T

The 6PPC IO have found to be a remarkable roe caliber.

I started out using 70 ballistic tips but found they never remained inside and didn't seem to expand much of their energy.

So I moved down to the 55grain ballist tip, with some(many) fears of having them blow up.

Well to date I have taken about 5 or 6 deer with the 55 and none have exited, varioud angles and various distances. I, have a pet roe round!

Dear EXPRESS

Have only shot 2 Roebuck using 6PPC 70g B/Tips.
Both were bucks and broadside and shot close the junction of the heart and lungs.
The first was at 95m and the second 220m.Both fell over.

I noticed bullet fragments of jacket and lead in both and spectacular internal damage.
Also found very small bullet sized exit holes on both.

I have never experienced this with the 70g SP Hornady.

I GUESS the following.

At 6PPC velocities the 70g Hornady just mushrooms well and ploughs through and gives good exit.

The 70g B/Tip 'blew up' on both occasions and the tiny exit holes were the bullet bases which are relatively large for such a small bullet.

Whilst once zeroing the 6PPC with B/Tips, I noticed that 2 out of the 5 shots went through the target and hit a concrete post which was situated on a very large bank directly behind and above the target.
I inspected the ground behind the target and saw evidence that the bullets had blown up and suspected the it was the bases that were getting up again and hitting the post.
As a result of this for safety reasons I will not use B/Tips for nightime fox shooting and use SX instead.
Not a very scientific test and I might be totally wrong but it sounds plausable to me.

Cheers Rob T.

[ 06-07-2003, 12:34: Message edited by: Rob T ]

Originally posted by EXPRESS:

So I moved down to the 55grain ballist tip, with some(many) fears of having them blow up.

Well to date I have taken about 5 or 6 deer with the 55 and none have exited, varioud angles and various distances. I, have a pet roe round!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EXPRESS,

Not to pick a fight but your memory deceives you!

You posted this on the Varmint Forum a while back-
Ok, today I took a roe buck, a very old male at 220meters, lasered, prone.

The 55grn ballistic tip from the 6PPC travelling @ 2600fps at that range, it entered and exited center shoulder, remaing intact.
The deer made a 30meter run for it before piling up.

You're obviously shooting to many to remember!

Cheers

1894: I can't find the discrepency, I started using these bullets about 5 or 6 months ago, if it sounds like I just started now...that might be what you're picking up.

Anyways, I'll swear by them, even though I wouldn't reccomend them. I might have been plain lucky, but I have used them enough now to have seen a good cross section of testing conditions.

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001054

Here's the link - maybe a different batch of bullets?

Nope, same bullets. Must be something you're picking up on that I take for granted...

Like I said I started using them 6 months ago, this was one the the first experiences I had usding these bullets, though I hadn't gained the confidence in them I now have.

Anyway, I'm likeing them and just picked up another box, also picked up a box of 58grain V.max, which from what I hear are more explosive or fragile. They might work the way I desire on the coyotes in Canada, and way result in failure on roe.

I think the "good" perfermance I'm getting with the Noslers is dues to them haveing a farily thick base which holds together and carries on to exit.

All the best.