Thinking about my next rifle project and jumping from one idea to the next.
Yesterday at the range I saw the first time a 243 WSSM. As I am doing my first steps as a reloader and interessted in a 6mm caliber, which I never had before, I would like to find informations about accuracy, brass and reloding problems, compared to the 6x62 frères which is the other 6mm round of my interesst.

Burkhard

I would make that choice based on the action length i.e. for a '06 Mauser action always the 6x62. I had one and had only very good experiences with it on longer ranges on roebuck/chamois. A lot of hunters and guides in Austria use it. Reloading is convenient, the dies might be expensive. As you are German, go for the Freres, Mr. Freres was very knowledgeable and a nice chap to, he deserves that his cartridges are around for some years.

Burkhard

Have you considered a 6x47 Lapua ?

I can see you are having a "Tramadol moment" agonising over a new project which I suffered for a few years

Honestly there is no cure except talking to people who have been there and got burnt or been there and done it

I can highly recommend this caliber since you did say you are interested in a 6mm configuration

I shot this in front of Ghubert, Top Predator and Gerry (only second time out - i.e. very little load development) it was capable of head shot accuracy at 600 yards and I am NO rifle shot at all

BTW for the geeks like me there is still 1200 foot lb at that distance so humane kill are entirely possible

I did actually ordered a 6 x 62 feres barrel for my R93 a few years ago but after attempting to order some ammo and cases from RWS I canceled my barrel order.

Try it for yourself.

It's easy enough for you in Germany

I also shot 243 WSSM twice in the last 3 years.

02 friends of mine owns this caliber in the UK.

Accuracy is awesome and also very stable combustion despite small variation in loads and atmospheric condition.

However it will not feed frequently.

Cases are limited to second class manufacturer.

If you can bear these issues then that's your baby.

I also like the fact that the neck to shoulder length is long hence a lot of control when seated properly (aka all the other BR cases).

BTW recoil subjectively is about that of a 6.5 x 47

I still say give 6 x 47 a go ..........

Just for the geeks, Burkhard there are 02 versions of 6 x 47

quote:

Mr. Freres was very knowledgeable and a nice chap to, he deserves that his cartridges are around for some years.

Would you decide on a caliber because he is a nice chap?

Another thing about the 243 WSSM

Barrel life is extremely short

I don't know much about reloading but my friend who owns it does. He is on 800 rounds count and last time I spoke to him accuracy is visibly worsening.

Have you considered what twist you are going for ?

I think if you have to go for the Feres then playing around with twist will be great fun.

As far as I know all the German factory 6 x 62 are geared for 1 in 8 or the metric equivalent

How about just for the hell of it plumb for a 1 in 14 shoot helium bullets.

You will be able to liquidfy brain tissues with head shots at well over 4000 fps

No, of course not. But I had the pleasure to talk to him on the phone and he was very patient with all my questions regarding his cartridges, which bullet to use, experiences on large game etc. This is not always the case and hence I think this positive behaviour should be rewarded. My 2cents.

BTW: RWS did never make ammo for the 6x62, first MEN and then Hirtenberger.

6x47 is a good idea and also 6XC (even nice Norma amunition available for it).

jagerfrank

Please don't take this the wrong way

I never meant to offend.
Perhaps I am bored sitting around since Christmas and cannot go hunting....

What a priviledge to talk to the inventor of a cartridge directly.

I would love to pick his brains.

I really meant I called all the R.W.S. agent and they do not make components for 6x62 hence I knew choices will be very very limited

I did meet a gentleman (gun dealer in Germany at the shooting range in Munich, sorry I forgot his name but his father is a well known Olympic skeet shooter for Germany in 1972

He also discouraged clients considering the 6 x 62 since he cannot supply cases and loaded ammo regularly.

Did you guys see the video posted in another thread about caliber debate ? are we not becoming one of them?

Is it Wirhier ?

Burkhard

That's a big change jumping from a 8 x 68 to a 6mm

What do want this rifle for ?

Day of the jackal "job" on hand or you are training to be a Professional hunter ?

Just curious

The WSSM brass is horrible, that alone would keep me away from the project.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
The WSSM brass is horrible, that alone would keep me away from the project.

Yes.

- mike

Am I correct in saying the WSSM is virtually dead in the U.S.

I don't recall seeing it on shelves in the states or Canada

Londonhunter

all is fine, I was not offended. The gentleman you talked to in Munich was Conny Wirnhier, a legend in German trap circles and quite a personality, basically most of Bavarians royalty learned trap/skeet from his lessons. In the late 90's I occasionally went to his range and had a lesson, you paid 50 German Marks and you could shoot as longs as he decided one has made some progress...
He died a few years ago, now his son Gerwald is running the shop and also doing some accompanied hunts in Spain or Argentina (which had been started by Conny too).
I can imagine that Conny did not like playing around with fancy cartridges, he was very much focused on efficieny and hitting. Hope I could bring some background into the holidays:-)

quote:

I saw the first time a 243 WSSM. As I am doing my first steps as a reloader and interessted in a 6mm caliber ...... compared to the 6x62 Frères which is the other 6mm round of my interesst.

Burkhard,

Let me help you "jump" from one to the next .....



As a Novice reloader I'd recommend staying away from both the .243 WSSM & the 6x62 Frères. Both cartridges are "loaded" with many intricacies tending even seasoned reloaders to cuss.

The better of the two IMO would be the Frères but it's Logistical Chain is so fraught with issues that reliabale componets can't be depended on.

If you really have to have a 6mm then I'd reco the 6mm Remington which is a solid cartdige BUT the 243 Winchester wins by about a 98:1 ratio; so even getting cases (although they can be easily made from others) isn't the easiest; but a bag of 100 Remington brass cases from the States ought to last a while and the Dies won't cost a small fortune, either.

Now having said all that & owning a .243 Winchester (which by itself is a fantastic Roe Deer cartridge; if not ONE of the best) .....

I'd forgoe all of them and simply make the "jump" to a 25-06 Remington:
1. easy to load for,
2. no hidden glitches,
3. adds some bullet weight,
4. fits & feeds a Mauser system perfectly ....

and has replaced my 6mm (.243 Winchester) as my smaller game cartridge; works perfectly up to Damwild sized game, including Piggies ..... don't want to get caught using a 6mm on Hochwild, ya know?

Gerry

You and your 243 was impressive at Bisley

03 shots and you are in the black at 600

hats off to the master .........

WSSM brass life is terrible 2 loadings is good if you are not annealing it is also bad for donuting and neck turning is a must.

Gerry,

How is the 25-06 going now?

I couldn't disagree any more with the "anti" .243 WSSM voices here!

I have a Browning A-Bolt Varmint Stalker in .243 WSSM and it is one of the most accurate and easy to load for rifles that I own, including all of my custom built rifles.

It is a TRUE 1/2 MOA rifle with every bullet I've tried; 70gr Ballistic Tips, 90gr Ballistic Tips, 95gr Ballistic Tips. I have killed prarie dogs, jackrabbits, coyotes, and mule deer with the rifle. A friend used his with an 85gr TSX to kill a cow elk at 100 yards through both shoulder bones. I use W-760 for accurate loads that are under max and get 3700 with the 70 gr bullet and 3250 with the 95gr bullet

quote:

How is the 25-06 going now?

Dave,



Sporting a 3-12x56 Kahles; the key was the bullets, both Nosler Partitions 100 & 115 grainers are - magic.

A real sleeper is the Barnes 80 grain TTSX; haven't Chrony'ed one yet but in the spring hope to have the Speed Camera on High Resloution as they must be moving downrange at a good clip.

Powder of choice so far has turned out to be AA-4350, still awaiting trials w/VVN-160 & VVN-560; although they'll have to work hard to beat the current AA-4350 loads.

Benjamin,

Sir, you are a True Gentleman.

I also like the 25-06 but like the 257 Wby much more. I cannot blame the 25-06 (so accurate) but the 257 kills with much more authority (unfortunately at a meat loss price). What annoyes me most is that I do not have an explanation for that. WBY is 115grain Ballistic tip or (old)Nospart 120 and 25-06 is Sako factory ammunition in 117 grain NosPart.

In fact if I would have to really pick one mountain rifle it would be my 257 Wby. I am extremely positive here.

If you want a good 6mm that easy to load and has some more authority than a standard 243 Winchester?

I'd really SERIOUSLY consider 6mm Remington. And certainly in France it is a widely available calibre.

Of the six Paris gunshops I know, for eaxmple, ALL stock 6mm Remington. I think that only one (Eric Briano at Montrouge) or two stock 6mm Freres.

Boutique cartridges are all well and good but a swine to sell on secondhand, a swine to get factory ammunition for and VERY EXPENSIVE to buy reloading dies for.

Me? I'd really honestly think about 6mm Remington. It is, after all, little more (via the "Roberts" route) than your German 7x57 necked down!

I got my 6mm Remington dies off eBay from the USA. Really cheap too US $20 plus US $15 postage! Cinderella calibres do have some advantages!

Cases? No problem plus, in UK, Joe Beatham at Gunshop East Barnet has factory 6mm Remington.

I have a 25-06 and a 243, to me the 25-06 is more of a big game round than the 243 is.

Saying that my 25-06 rifle is a varmint type and my 243 is a Blaser single shot.

I have taken a lot of animals with the 25-06 as I have owned it for about 15 years.

The 243 hasn't shot much other than a couple of pronghorns and a coyote I got mad at.

25-06 brass is available from a few companies and everyone that makes really good brass Lapua, RWS, Norma make a 243. I think Norma and Lapua still make a 25-06.

Burkhard

I feel sorry for you because if you re-read this thread you started asking about 02 calibers and we now have given you 07 new choices to consider ...........

I bet you are more confused than ever .......

I will try and delete my suggestions to make life simpler for you.

Honestly nobody has really answered your question directly.

Ultimately this is a hobby and you must enjoy it.

Have a happy new year and when you finish your project please let us know what it is.

I am plenty curious as to what the rifle is for ( this you never told us)

As you are German I cannot see you going to Montrouge and of all places East Barnet to get reloading supplies !

L.O.L.

Stick with the fatherland for expert choices of munition .......



Gerry , Jagerfrank

Do you guys have connections to this factory
Some of the stuff they make are most interesting .....

OOOPs

Have to sign off now there is a knock on my front door - I think it is Scotland yard and want to have a word with me about my surfing habits ...........

Thank you for all the replies.
You know these days at the end of the year.
Staying at home, playing family, looking in the gun safe and thinking about a new projet.

The 6x62 Frères is a cartridge I am interessed in since years. In my eyes the advantage is,
that the brass is available in a rimmed version too.

After shooting a 243 WSSM at the range, I was impressed about this cartridge with the funny design.

Finding informations is difficult, so I decided to ask the forum.

As the minimum bullet diameter for big game in Germany is 6,5mm,this rifle is for roe deer and predators.

Next year I can hunt in a region near Kassel (Hessen) were they have a coon problem.

So I need a cartridge for longer distances with high accuracy and speed for those shots.
And I really like the fun factor of an exotic round.

OK, in 9 hours we have a new year. All the best for you and your families.
I am sure, I will enjoy your comments in 2011 as I did it in the last years.

Burkhard

Personally, as it is long established, and with a wide knowledge base if you want an "exotic" in 6mm?

I'd strongly consider 240 Weatherby Magnum. I've seen the 6mm Freres and personally I'm not impressed by cartridge design. Neck too short, shoulders "not right" etc., etc.

I'll warrant that the Weatherby will still be around in ten or twenty years...but the 6mm Freres or the 243 WSSM?

The 240 has as many problems as the WSSM does, wierd neck design, wierd base design, but Norma makes the brass so that's good.

I'd build a wild cat based off of a 7x57 or 8x57 with a Ackley shoulder using RWS, Lapua, or Norma brass. A 6mm Ack IMproved Remington.

If life really sucked you could buy 1000 6mm Remington cases and sort them for weight. At least you would have a good known project.

That or just use the standard 6mm Rem cartridge and use a full length sizing die on a 7x57 case from RWS, Norma or Lapua.

Burkhard,

Hapy new year. deciding on a new rifle is definately the way to start 2011!!

You mentioned loonger ranges for the racoons. What sort of distances are you talking about here?

K

Happy new year to all hunters in the forum.

My rifle projects, one of those dreams.

After having a long dicussion with my gunsmith,
the result

243 WSSM - brass hard to find, barrel burner,
will not survive. Much better rounds
died like the 264 Win

240 Wby. - A beltet case - never

6,2 x 62 Frères - For him a cartridge with a
special charme, and it is availible in
a rimmed version. Expensive.

Result of the discussion "You just start learning reloding.
Take a simpler project. My vote is the 6,5 x68.
This round is fantastic, but the 6,5x65 RWS and the
6,5x63 Messner have become more popular and the most
rifle builders do no longer chamber in 6,5x68.
So my vote for you is 6,5x68, and it´s easy to relod.
Oldie but goldie"

So my new projet will be 6,5x68, 1:8 twist, 26" barrel.

Burkhard

I am a little surprise being German you are going for 26 inch barrel and not 650 mm

Big difference you know. !

Hahaha

Great choice I wish I have that in my k95 .....

mated to a Ruger #1 action and you have it all.

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
I am a little surprise being German you are going for 26 inch barrel and not 650 mm

Big difference you know. !

Hahaha

Great choice I wish I have that in my k95 .....

It is a big differance Ben 26" is 660.4mm

I have 10 boxes of 6.5x68R brass I am waiting to build a rifle for. Someday.

Congradulations on the concept of your new rifle.

If a cartridge is definitely not popular it is the 6,5x63 Messner.

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
I am a little surprise being German you are going for 26 inch barrel and not 650 mm

Big difference you know. !

Hahaha

Great choice I wish I have that in my k95 .....

It is a big differance Ben 26" is 660.4mm

You are spot on happy new year Dave

It's a private joke between me and a German gunsmith that's all

This iPad will not allow me to correct my missteeks since it does not scroll ......

We just discussed about the monkey`s rifle.
I vote for a Enfield in a civil version.
Is that right. Please say yes, if not it will cost me a big box of beer.

Burkhard

I am very sorry Burkard

I really have no idea

I was passed this picture by my cousin in the states

It's not a photoshop

I will ask him ........

Anybody can help ?

quote:

Originally posted by Burkhard:
We just discussed about the monkey`s rifle.
I vote for a Enfield in a civil version.
Is that right. Please say yes, if not it will cost me a big box of beer.

Burkhard

That is definitely a sporterised Lee Enfield.

I don't know about you guys but I was mesmerised by Day of the Jackal when it was shown in cinemas.

I recall there were no VCR's or recording medium easily obtainable in those days.

As a young kid I remember seeing the film repeately with my own pocket money just to dream about the "melon zeroing footage"

What caliber will you choose if you have such a task nowadays and what configuration will your rifle be ?

Just curious ?

Did any other movie influence what you are today ?

Why not the 243 win.? Or if you need a hot shot the 6mm/06. 70gr bullets are awesome. The 6mm rem. with or w/o the ackley shoulder. These are proven standard or wildcat.Oh I almost forgot the 243 Ackely. This one also smokes.

i had a 240wby on a weatherby mark v custom delux and my hunting friend has a 6x62 on his blaser r93 luxus, and the two calibers are much faster than the 243wssm.

even in mexico is dificult to find cases for the 240, 6x62 and the 243wssm, but the quality of the cases weatherby (240)and rws (6x62) are much better than the winchester.

and the expected live of the case are much longer in the weatherby and the rws than the winchester.

so i decided to go for the much better quality so always i had weatherby/norma, lapua and rws.

so in europ are much easy to find a box of cartriges cal 6x62 than in mexico,

best regards

Monkey's rifle is an SMLE MK III with the magazine cut-out still fitted it would appear and a civilian barrel added.

I own A Winchester Mod 70 Featherweightin 243 wssm. Haven't found A bullet that it won't shoot accurately. I have tried several different powders Rl-15, Rl-17, and Rl-19 and They all work fine. Can't immagine A less sensitive cartridge to load and work with. Six or seven reloads on the brass and they look like once reloads. I haven't even trimmed the brass yet. Very pleasant to shoot and very accurate

The biggest problem with the WSSM is that it isn't popular enough that anyone is still making rifles, not Winchester, not Browning, and not even Cooper.

So how long do you think it will continue on as a cartrige? 10 years? 15? Other than special run like the 284 Winchester.