These cartridges presently come with relatively soft spitzer or FMJ bullets for small game/varmints.

Would there be an interest in a loading with a 71 Grain bonded bullet for Reh deer?

John,

My Guesstimate would be "No"; but consider the source......I didn't buy Google stock, either.

Several reasons:

The Savage High Power's middle-level velocity Niche (just a step above .22 Hornet speeds) is for Roe Deer, Foxes and the occaisional Badger (here in the Fatherland anyway).

Roe, soft-skinned Deer with a finely textured flesh that don't really require the use of a premium bullet. Norma & RWS already own the Quality or Premium ammunition "Market Niche" with this cartridge for Non-Reloaders anyway (the overwhelming vast majority). Norma & RWS's R&D obviously don't perecive the need for a premium bullet or they would have already topped the cartridge off with one.

Reloaders (the few) can add whatever .228" Botique Bullet they would like (although there are no really premium .228" bullets on the market).

Creating a "Niche" is definately the correct Market Strategy but taking Market Share away from an already establsihed one is VERY difficult. My perception is that the .22 Savage High Power is strickly a hunting cartridge here, shot only at the range in 1's & 2's to confirm zero and then relegated to the combo-rifles & insert barrels for Hunting. Getting someone to change their mind, Brand loyalty & purchase another "Quality" box of ammunition when they're already purchasing what is perceived as "Quality/Premium" ammunition from Norma & RWS is gonna be a tough Row(Roe)-to-Hoe, so to speak, IMO. Especially, since these folks are not Techies, in many cases have their Gunsmith select & sight-in their expensive combination & insert-barreled rifles for them anyway; simply want to pick up whatever Box of Ammo the Gunsmith sold them with the rifle that's sighted-in and go Hunting. You're gonna have to convince a coupla genrations of stuborn, conservative, German Gunsmiths that your "Premium" ammuntion is a better deal/quality than what's already available IMO.

You'll notice that RWS & Norma start their Proprietary Bullet range with .243 Winchester, except the 5.6x57 (only RWS) which gets a 74 grain Cone Point, but that's a .224" bullet, not .228". The remainder of cartridges "below" that, .22 Hornet (other than RWS target loads), .222 & .223 Remington, 5.6x50 all get topped-off with pretty much vanilla-flavored "Geschoß".

My $0.02 (I'll forward the Marketing Research Consultation Invoice per PM).

My feeling is that the RWS .228 bullet will be a bit tougher anyway than a US varmint bullet.
A .228 "premium" bullet would be nice to have, but essential it is not. And as Gerry pointed out, the market will be small.
Owners of a 5.6x61 (R) vom Hofe would be really delighted. But that's an even smaller market niche.

Fuhrmann

It hurts me to say this since 95% of the blood in my veins is German (the other 5% is quite envious), but the RWS "Premium" bullets are crap.

I will take your advice about this cartridge; if no one will buy it, why try to sell it. Here we have the Hornady 70 grain bullet for the 22 Savage HP/5.7x52R. I played with the RWS and Norma bullets, hmmmmmmm..... all about the same.

OK, that idea goes back to #76 on my "to do" list. But I will do it in the fullness of time.

As for the 5.6x61 (R) vom Hofe, we have the 60 grain Nosler Partition, 55 grain Trophy Bonded and probably something from Barnes that would "carry the load", so to speak.

Many thanks,

LD

quote:

It hurts me to say this since 95% of the blood in my veins is German (the other 5% is quite envious), but the RWS "Premium" bullets are crap.

Gartenfeil......

Whoa! "Crap?" Well, a little harsh perhpas but they are certainly not all the Legend & Lore the Tuetons make them out to be.

A remark like that WILL definately start at least a fist fight if not a knife fight at my lcoal shooting range.....make sure you wear protective clothing. I know 'cause I've run this gauntlet before....Germans love their RWS rifle ammunition.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
It hurts me to say this since 95% of the blood in my veins is German (the other 5% is quite envious), but the RWS "Premium" bullets are crap.

I will take your advice about this cartridge; if no one will buy it, why try to sell it. Here we have the Hornady 70 grain bullet for the 22 Savage HP/5.7x52R. I played with the RWS and Norma bullets, hmmmmmmm..... all about the same.

OK, that idea goes back to #76 on my "to do" list. But I will do it in the fullness of time.

As for the 5.6x61 (R) vom Hofe, we have the 60 grain Nosler Partition, 55 grain Trophy Bonded and probably something from Barnes that would "carry the load", so to speak.

Many thanks,

LD

I did not mean any RWS premium bullet, I was just referring to the 71 grain .228 "Teilmantel" bullet. It's long ago that I used one on game but from memory it worked quite OK. Recently I shot some roe deer using older Speers, also OK. But anyway, with the 5.6x52R I use a rather light load, to avoid blodshot meat etc. I'd certainly like to try a tougher bullet - nice to have in case a boar walks by .... (but not quite legal in Germany, I know).
Please tell once you reach item #76.

The 5.6x61 vom Hofe needs .228 bullets!
The original load as per a 1963 DWM catalog used a 5 gram / 77 grain "Torpedo-Stopring" bullet, claimed muzzle velocity was 1130 m/s (3700 fps) for the rimless version, 1060 m/s (3380 fps) for the rimmed version. Probably "optimistic" as usual with these old figures, but still a hot number. The RWS Wiederladen Manual advises to use the 71 grain .288 bullet for the 5.6x52R, but to keep velocity reasonable. With hot loads exceeding 1080 m/s spontaneous disintegration of bullets was observed.

Fuhrmann

Thanks for that information. I knew that my comment would/could create strong feelings; just felt like stirring the pot a bit.

With a Corbin swage machine I can make some thick walled and bonded .228 bullets that will hold up to quite a bit of abuse. The interesting thing is that they will do less meat damage at both low and high velocities.

I'm sorry that I don't have my conversion table handy, but I get 2,900 fps from a 5.7x52R with IMR 3031 powder at safe pressures.

When I get some of these bulets made, I will send samples to you kind folks to see what you can do with them.

Us Germans (and Americans full of German blood like me) are stubborn, but we also have a practical streak.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I'm sorry that I don't have my conversion table handy, but I get 2,900 fps from a 5.7x52R with IMR 3031 powder at safe pressures.

When I get some of these bulets made, I will send samples to you kind folks to see what you can do with them.

2900 fps is 884 m/s.
I tested a load with Rottweil R903 and 70 grain Speer bullets at 875 m/s, but that seemed a bit hot. I now use a load at about 820 m/s.
I will be very interested to try your bullets.

Fuhrmann

Method of hunting with the cartridge is going to be stalking or high seat, shots taken will be at stationary broad side roe.

From my experience of 5.6x50R which considerably faster (and hence more expansive) the enemy is LACK of expansion and definately not over expansion. Lack of expansion in my rifle (bad lot of bullets?)gave some appalling results (200m fleeing distance with 5 minutes to die from asphyxiation - neat holes through lungs on autopsy) This from an attempt to get 222rem performance with 50gr hornady soft points.

Bullet performance is everything in 22 centrefires on roe. Personaly I don't think that it would be wise to try to commercialy try and reduce meat damage or increase penetration. The former is required to kill and the latter is not required unless one is using the rifle unwisely.

If you want anyone to test 5.6x50Rmag ammunition on say 20 roe then send me a box! (Actualy on average I miss once a box so that would be 19 roe )

The big trick with premium bullets is that the nose opens easily to 2x the original diameter, but the rear of the bullet needs to hold together. This way the blood channel is good.

High lung shots usually run for a distance, but no meat is damaged.

LD