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Last weekend I saw a very nice little 20ga side-by-side that was set up as a double rifle -- both barrels were rifled (full length), it had express sights and was set up for a scope mount if wanted. 350gr sabot at 1600 feet per second at the muzzle and guaranteed accuracy of 2 inches at 100 yards. Question is --- Is it powerful enough for driven boar and is it legal in any country in Europe? Here's a copy of the flyer.    DB Bill aka Bill George | ||
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Here about 60% of the boar hunters use rifles and 40% use 12 gauge shotguns and not rifled, since the 20 gauge is commonly considered inadequate on bigger boars. That gun is certainly legal in Italy and France. | |||
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It would be legal in Sweden for boar and fallow alone, ie at a driven hunt in Sweden it would be slightly limiting to use. Best regards Chris | |||
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It would be legal in here, Estonia, as well. But it would indeed be better, if it was 12g. But, given that I'd say about 75% of our hunters prefer using shotguns in driven hunts (very dense forests) and about a quarter or even a third of them use non-rifled 16 gauges with great success, a rifled 20g with higher pressures and velocities, shouldn't be far behind it. It is sort of the same debate, whether 6.5X55 is adequate for boars. (which, in my opinion, it is. Even for moose) | |||
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It is the legal minimum in Belgium but shouldn't as, honestly, it's much too light and is not a stopper. In practice, it would be (privately) banned in many hunting parties. I'll readily admit not being in favour of shotguns for big game. If the shooter limited his shooting range to 30-40 meters max and used a 12 ga. gun that shot to point of aim, I could be convinced but, things being what they are...  André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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BD, How's Tricks in sunny southern California? Firstly, appears to be a very interesting Double Rifle set-up, and if appearances alone are a consideration - you'd be the JagdKönig at my Drive Hunt based on good taste & good looks alone with that Double Rifle! Also I'm sure that if the manufacturer has made the accuracy claims they can deliver on their word, especially with vast array of various American Slug offerings available today. I have to agree wholeheartedly with the responses above, while 20 Gauge Slugs do not have the wallop that 12 gauge Slugs do and nor do 16 gauge Slugs which I'll address below; although getting walloped (in the right spot) with @ 1 Oz. of lead in 12, 16 or 20 gauge is certainly more than a lethal dose IMO. IF Europe was the Land of Wally-World you'd think that the vast majority of Drive Hunt attendees would have a Remington 870 Slug Gun variant. Not so, although I have a Hunting buddy with his own Hunting Lease who insists that I bring my 870 as he shoots a Mossberg 500 with a 20" stubby barrel & open sights. Under the conditions we hunt we've had trmendous success with both of these shotguns on Wild Boar and No, not in the Forest but at Drive Hunts organized surrounding large expanses of corn fields as they are being harvested. I have another Buudy who uses a 20 gauge Drilling equipped with a Red Dot sight with devastating results (for the Pigs) in his own Lease. He encourages folks to bring Slugs. So much for pre-conceived notions..... While certainly legal, about 60% of the Drive Hunts I've attended this year (every weekend since October) specify DO NOT bring Slugs. Previously many attempted qualify their BS request but IMO the reason is quite simple. Many bring a 16 gauge Drilling, stuff the rifle barrel with a 7x57R or 7x65R, the shotgun tubes with two 16 ga. Slugs and for optics have either a 6x42 or 8x56 for night-time or High Seat use. With this three-shot firepower they proceed to hammer away at everything that runs by, often with disappointing results. Another reason is that European ammunition manufacturers have invested ZERO R&D in furthering 16 ga. slug development since about 1920 as depicted by the vanilla-flavored, standard fare RWS 16 ga. slug. Also sadly, the Nimrod arriving at a Drive Hunt equipped with a Semi-Automatic or Pump-Action shotgun will receive significant attention from the assembled Great & Good here in our neck of the woods. Actually, it has nothing to do with the caliber, gauge, Ft. Lbs. or Joules but rather the shooting (read-marksmanship abilities) of those to whom this pre-conceived notion applies. As an aside (O.K. hijack.....but not to detract from the beautiful shotgun depicted above) a Berlin Industrialist used to hold an annual Shooting Competition, making up his own events & Rules of Engagement. One event was shooting the Running Boar target at 50 Meters with Slugs. With Skeet Chokes in a Winchester 101 O/U I could plunck two slugs in the 10 ring every time and won the event every year for five years running. No brag, just I grew up shooting driven whitetails in the Florida swamps with the Good 'Ole Boys using Remington 870's and 1100's. Well, if it was my Drive Hunt I'd happily invite you with that shotgun..... Cheers, Number 10 | |||
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i shudder by the mere thought, thankfully most european drives have a bit more class and sense
this is where i hoist the  sorry but slug shooting begins and ends with brenneke and besides the original, they make a few other designs, but for penetration and shootability the original is still the best.
well, you are not going to war are you  on the question on this tread, if the rifle can regulate with brenneke's then it would be a nice option, ask them to make it a 12 instead and for the old british recipe of 6 drams of black and a round ball or a fosbury style slug. that would take care of anything you will encounter on a european drive. or use the money to buy a british paradox gun or a fully rifled 12 bore. best regards peter | |||
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What of the reasons I'm intrigued with this 20ga Slug Gun is I have a 20ga SxS double that would be a twin, or at least a cousin, to it. I ask the manufacturer if he could/would add a set of 20ga smooth-bore barrels to it and he said no. From the comments so far it seems I will be taking a closer look at a couple of 9.3x74R rifles that are available. DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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As it has fully rifled barrels it would, under BRITISH LAW be considered a 20 bore double RIFLE. There is no such thing in British Law as a "rifled shot gun" as a shot gun here is defined as being totally smooth bored for the whole length of the barrel. So if it has any rifling in its barrel - even if just three inches like a Paradox - it is a rifle. Therefore the restrictions that apply to the use of a shot gun on deer (minimum legal size of 12 bore and in limited defined circumstamces) would NOT apply. So what would apply would be our law in relation to rifles for use on deer. For England: Does it have a minimum calibre of .240" and a minimum muzzle energy of 1700 foot pounds (2305 joules)? In England it would be legal as most 20 bore slug has a muzzle energy of around 1800 foot pounds. For Scotland: Does it have a bullet with a minimum weight of 100 grains (6.48 grams) with a muzzle velocity of not less than 2450 feet per second (746.76 metres per second) and a muzzle energy of not less than 1750 foot pounds (2373 joules)? ALL THREE REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET - IF IT FAILS ONE IT IS ILLEGAL REGARDLESS OF PASSING THE OTHER TWO. So in Scotland it would be illegal as it would fail the velocity requirement. We have no legal minimum legal specification for firearms or ammunition for wild boar in Great Britain but an advised (not legally binding) suggestion of a minimum of 270 Winchester with 150 grain (9.72 grams) bullet. | |||
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Chapius has done some over/under slug guns. There are one for 1500USD not far from me. Useless in Sweden, only one barrel guns are allow for slug . | |||
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I agree with Gerry. It would be perfect. Danish Peter sounds like the type of guy that likes to show up at the hunts to discuss the latest tweed design, and decide if his british double is fancier than the next guys british double. Which is fine of course, if thats what you like in hunting: a social hour. But for the types of hunts like Gerry has described, it would be perfect. On my revier / lease, I had 220 hectares of corn (maize for you non-murkans) because of the new "bio-Fuel" laws, and we spend the whole summer driving pigs out of the corn. All I care about is having knowledgeable skilled hunters safely shoot as many pigs as possible on the run, not what type of fancy engraved double rifle they had. I agree with Gerry. There are two types of hunts here in germany, real hunts and social events. The remingtons are shunned on one and liked on the other. I might ask my son to make me one of those double rifled slug guns on an older Simson side by side action. Sounds cool. | |||
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+1 As much as I like a fine gun, I think everyone prefers a good shot who can kill boar reliably. One of the best shots on my last boar hunt had a 5 shot benelli semi 12GA which was used to great effect! | |||
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mike i find it amusing that if one wears tweed and uses fine guns then suddenly im a bad shot. please try not to sterotype me untill you met me, then have a go. i do all types of hunts, in all weather and in all social layers from the very top to the very bottom, the reason i detest the pump shotgun and the semi auto is the fact that most people have to many rounds so they instead of shooting the animal dead on the first shot they keep shooting at the animal. one of my jobs in denmark is as a swisshound handler, the guys that get called when the shooting were at the animal and not for ONE deadly shot to ancor the animal. last if you cant appricate the difference between a hand finished truly well balanced gun and a forged roughly machined american pump or semi-auto, then maybe you should try the other side as well, because it sure dont sound like you speak out of knowlegde. best regards peter | |||
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Mylimited experience of a 20-bore slug used on boar was in Italy, hunting up in the wilds of Tuscany. most shooers were local farmers etc and I was there as a guest of my girlfriend's cousin. He took a Beretta Silver Pigeon 20-bore o/u and loaded it with 23g slugs. He shot a right and left at running boar with it and the holes went right through the boar, leaving a wide open track. They were very dead. Having wondered about the adequacy of the gun and ammo at the start, I was in no doubt they worked by the end of the day. this was in teh forest and shooting was sub 50 meters. | |||
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Hmm! I've handled and shot with most of them - Boss, Purdey, Holland, Powell, Westley and Winchester 1897, 1912, Browning Auto-5, Remington 870. I have NEVER seen a "roughly machined" American repeater. And as for handling qualities the Winchester 1912 handles and points as well as any Holland. Winchester's 1897 and 1912 and Browning's Auto-5 were machined from a block solid steel unlike any and all British doubles which all start off as rough forgings. | |||
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20 ga rifled with sabot slugs Win Supreme gold partition would be a good choice for a driven boar. 20ga smooth barreled guns with brennekas are not that good choice. I'm talking about Croatian experiences. | |||
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I have them all Peter, everything from a custom hand made Ferlach double rifled drilling (doppelbuchsedrilling) to a Chinese machine made stamped steel semi automatic shotgun. And I agree that there is a time and a place for everything. I too handle hounds trained to track wounded game. Mine may not be swiss (mine is Austrian, a Brandlbrache) but he has a damn good nose, and can detect the wounded tracks from the non wounded tracks. He gets a lot of practice at car / game accidents as well. But to make a comment that you would shudder at the thought that drive hunt attendees would have a remington 870, and that you are thankful that most drive hunts have more class than that tends to remind me of the circumstances that allowed me to get the revier that I now lease. The old revier owners were a bunch of doctors and lawyers, and professors who all had fancy tweed and fancy handmade rifles. After the third cow and the second automobile were shot, the locals got kind of pissed off at their attitude, and everyone agreed that it would be the best to seek out another lease holder. The new lease holder, ME, hasn't had one single solitary tweed wearing, high fallutin', uppity hunter on the revier for 3 years now, and the fanciest rifle that shows up at corn drive hunts during the summer is a Remington 7400 in a plastic stock (bought at Wal-Mart in Boise Idaho I might add), and we do just fine! We do have our annual social drive hunt, where we let the tweed wearing old farts drive to the area in their jeeps, and we humor them by letting them show up for a small game hunt with a rifle, and we Americans all bring out our fancy aya sidelocks, and our handmade Suhls and Ferlachs, because everyone always wants to see what it's like on "The American Revier" in Lambsborn. But I don't shutter at the thought of someone bringing a Remington. In fact, last sunday night, I was called to track a wounded pig shot 2 reviers over by a tweed wearing, scottish cap coffing, double rifled shooter (he bought the double .416 Rigby from me by the way four years ago) and I tracked it a long long way. WE stopped once it was clear the pig was bedding down, and we were moving it on. Lots of intestines dropped out. Monday afternoon, when we finally got it it had eventually bled out. Would you like to know what that lamebrain was using for ammo? African Solids. Peter, my point is, that there are different types of hunts, and if you want to socialize, put on the tweed and parade around like royalty, hob-nob with the socialites, and show up with your British doubles, and talk about hunting go right ahead and do so, if it makes you happy. But don't knock those of us who hunt because we need to control game, and use the best tools for the job, no matter how cheap they are. We don't do it for social status, we do it because we like hunting, not hob nobbing. Would you like to come down to Rheinland Pfalz and shoot a few boar with an American this next summer during corn season? We have accomodations, and have tons of the stinky bastards in the corn fields. You're invited if you would like to come. Bring that 450/400 3 inch (with softpointed ammo) and show me that tweed wearers can shoot them doulesticks. But you're gonna hafta be quick, they come out 5 or 6 at a time. That's a legitimate invite pard. I mean it. Mike | |||
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The 'tweed makes you a lamebrain who wounds animals' path is somewhat of a departure from the suitability or otherwise of 20-bore slugs but... I wear tweed because it is practical for shooting in the UK climate. It is comfortable, easy care, dry and warm. It is also silent and the cloth non-reflective. I wear breeks and long woolen socks because they are practical and stop you getting sodden, muddy, floppy cloth slapping around your ankles. I also have other gear - camo with hat and face mask for shooting pigeons or stalking rabbits or deer. I do not shoot better when wearing camo nor act more stupidly when wearing tweed. Neither garb affects my ability to select appropriate ammunition. I shoot British guns because I like them and they do the job better than anything else in my opinion. That is why I take a British 12-bore hammer gun to Africa. Mr Texan in Germany, you need to get a bit of balance because your slurring the name of tweed-wearing, British double shooting chaps everywhere is both ignorant and pointless. | |||
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Mike, I'm sure you mean no offence but it is just possible that some there is some "inverted" snobbery in your post. I shoot with people from all walks of life as Peter does. Some of these people wear army-surplus, some the finest bespoke tweed. On a formal driven day one should dress smartly, not necessarily tweed but something appropriate. The reason head-to-toe cammo is not appropriate is that no-else wears it and you would ironically stick out like a sore thumb. On the other hand don't turn up in jeans and a leather jacket, as I once did, only to do ruin hundreds of pounds worth of clothes by the second drive. Striving to achieve the balance 'twain the two has resulted in everyone turning up in identical Musto stuff but that's another story..... This whole disagreement boils down to not judging a book by its cover. You may indeed have had tweed clad numpties on your shoot, we have cammo clad Remington shooters poach ours. Am I to take that I should harbour a prejudice against cammo-ed shooters on the basis of your stance on tweed wearers? Regards, Amir | |||
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mike: you got a deal, i will gladly accept the invitation(i will pm you with contact info) and i might even sway you about.
since that is the remark that brought all this on lets do in with bore guns  i look forward to this mike cheers peter | |||
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Two separate issues in this thread: class and class. Some have one or the other. Some have neither. Some have both. Strive to have both. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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yes you should, its called learning from experiences. i fully support murkan mike's post. of course its not the clothes who are the problem, its the stereotype. tweed dressed men who are so full of it and thinks very highly of themselfes, call it snobbish if you like. the kind of people who makes normal people want to puke. on the other hand you got the tactical-camo dressed hunter with a synthetic pump or autoloader equipped with a aimpoint and god knows what. he even thinks that "tactical" rushing over a field gives him a edge over the game. these guys are often known as "rambo-hunters" and they will use every oppurtunity to blaze of as many shots as possible. prejudice? maybe. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting European Big Game Hunting 20ga slugs from a rifled barrel for driven boar ???
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