I went deerstalking in Scotland a few years ago and to be honest the three days that I spent on the hill were some of the greatest days afield I have ever had. I am turning forty next year and I decided that for my fortyith birthday present to myself I will go back to Scotland deerstalking
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Last time I wore breeks, or plus twos, and I found them to be really comfortable and well suited to the hill with one exception they were a little short and had a tendency to ride up on me while crawling in the heather. Then I would get covered in ticks, and my knees would get cold. So I am looking for a supplier of some plus fours for my next trip. I am 6’4” tall so I am assuming that I will have to have them made.

Can anyone recommend someone who can make me some plus fours? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Plus fours the hard way:

Buy a pair of pants that you like to hunt in. Gore tex, tweed, whatever you like. Obviously the best way to go about this would be pants that are on sale that don't fit you for length anyway.

Then in your local community find a seamstress that has worked on outdoor coat repair, and ask her to turn them into breeks for you. Bring lots of photos of breeks, and if you have them a pair of breeks to use as a sample.

I am average height 6 feet, but short legs 32 inseam. So normal breeks work for me well. I have never converted a pair of pants into breeks. That being said, I have turned about a 30 flight suits into long or short flights for people that were very tall or very short. A flight suit has about 30 zippers on it and is a huge pain in the ass. I have also completly rebuilt a G-1 original horsehide flight jacket for an Admiral.

Cutting down a pair of breeks and installing some buttons or snaps at the bottom for fastening, would be nothing.

I have been building the Navy's flight gear for almost 20 years. What you are talking about is a very simple job for any sewer worth their salt.

Kind of funny, but parachute riggers are called "stitch bitches" by everyone in the military. That is until they need you to build them something or fix something.

Some brilliant PR coined the phrase "tactical tailor".

I would personally use a pair of LL Bean gore-tex soft shell pants as the breeks. They are available in green, and a matching coat can be bought. If you wanted to wear tweed, several companies make tweed-gore tex pants.

Up to you!

The problem with converting ordinary pants into Plus 4's is the shape of the pant leg wont give you sufficient billow at the knee. They will ride up the same way as ordinary plus2 or breeks will. I assure you many have tried this penny pinching route and have ended up disappointed.

Plus4's are designed with an almost straight leg. With some gather at the waist.
This gives you enough material at the knee to act as a drip line for any moisture so it doesn't run down inside your socks and fills your boots . It also allows the wear to crawl without the knee or back of the calf becoming exposed. Decent heavy tweed does away with the need for goretex lining, it acts as a good protector of your knees against sharp bits of heather and rocks especially if you have the kness section double layered and it also dries quickly.

I have mine made for me by the following company Isaac Walton & Co. Ltd

http://www.isaacwaltontailoring.co.uk/gamekeeper/

They have been supplying traditional made to measure shooting attire since 1887.

Generations of hill stalkers and ghillies have continued to wear these things for one simple reason. They work!

Do yourself a favour, get a pair made. You'll never regret it.

Thank you for the responses.

I do not think that I will take the modify approach.

Before my first trip a Gamekeeper friend of mine told me to get Plus Fours and not mess with “American hunting clothes”. I thought about it but thought that he was kidding me. Being an American wearing “knickers” (I know that has another meeting in the UK) as they are called here was pretty foreign to me. I took his advice but settled on breeks because I was able to find a Barbour pair off the rack that matched a jacket that I liked, and they did not look as strange. It worked out better than American hunting clothes would have worked but I am certain that plus fours would work better.

After being on the hill I realized that keepers are very practical and if they are still wearing wool plus fours there is a reason for it. I was really impressed at how well wool works in that environment. I am sold on it and want to get a pair made to order that really fits.

I have sent off an inquiry to Issac Walton, are there anymore recommendations?

Brad

Glad to read that you have decided to follow the good advice. There are several suppliers of bespoke or tailor made shooting garments here in the UK.

I'd suggest giving Brocklehursts a try along with Isasac Waltons

http://www.brocklehurstsofbakewell.co.uk/index.html

Both companies have in house tailors who can advise on cut. weight of tweed and the finer points like type of back, number and type of pockets exct.

My last bit of advice is to steer well clear of velcro as a means of fasterning the knee. Opt for the sewn on seperate leather strap and buckle.

I don't actually agree with the concept of plus fours.

I prefer fairly tall hunting boots like the Danner Canadian, with a pair of soft shell gore tex pants, and gore tex gaiters.

Less clothing protects less!

If breeks really were better, I would see them in similar topography with similar weather in North American far north and Greenland during late summer July and August hunts.

I guess, until you try them in the enviroment they were designed for. Like a few days hind stalking on the west coast in late November, you'll never actually know.

That is true Jools,

I'll have to try it some day.

They work well and were the best option many years ago now however they are only worn as part of the tradition and highland stalking experiance as thats the guests expect.

Once the guests have gone and the tough business and weather that the hind cull brings and you wont see many highland stalkers wearing plus fours

However there are much better options available now get yourself some goretex trousers good walking boots and some decent gaitors.

Personally I would go with MacGaitors

Dave

We must know differnt stalkers.

Some of the contarct guys I know go your route but then they have other things on their mind.

I've always found gortex line trousers colder than plus4's. Which can be a real pain in the butt as the weather turns against you.

Boots, gaitor, and plus4's every time for moi.

As far as I see it Gortex offers no real thermal qualities, so a Gortex lined light trouser will indeed be colder than a heavy tweed that is woollen with no Gortex in it.

Most Stag stalking you are more interested in waterproof above thermal anyway,as it takes place in the summer months, but that all changes with the hind culls as far as I can see when the cold can be a real issue.

Whatever you choose make sure it is treated with permethrin to minimise the ticks and chances of Lymes while crawling in the Heather.

K

Thanks for all the replies and information

When I went last time I wore heavy wool socks to the knees, my tweed plus twos, danner boots and gaiters over the boots to my plus twos. Other than the plus twos hiking up I was extremely comfortable. I was stalking at the end of September and it may have been warm by Scotland standards, but for a california boy it was cold and wet. I am certain I would have been miserable if I was not wearing wool. I get cold really easily and it was cold, wet and windy.

I am pretty sold on the wool and am going to go the plus four route. I am convinced that it is the right equipment for me. Now the Deerstalker hat that is more tradition than function, but Stalking in Scotland has to have a little tradition in it.....

What is permethrin? Last time I ended up with a lot of tics and would like to to avoid it this time if I can.

Permehrin is a insecticide made from flowers.

Works ok.. I think deet works better, but it is a poison.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
As far as I see it Gortex offers no real thermal qualities, so a Gortex lined light trouser will indeed be colder than a heavy tweed that is woollen with no Gortex in it.

Most Stag stalking you are more interested in waterproof above thermal anyway,as it takes place in the summer months, but that all changes with the hind culls as far as I can see when the cold can be a real issue.

Whatever you choose make sure it is treated with permethrin to minimise the ticks and chances of Lymes while crawling in the Heather.

K

No gor-tex soft shell fleece, is what I am talking about not a gore-shell.

Sorry but unless the wind is blowing or it is wet. The tweed will be warmer.

Since this is Scotland I am betting both will be true.

Well, Issac Walton will not make them without measuring me personally. Brocklehursts will make me a set, the price they are giving me is 300 GBP (or ~$500). That seems a little high to me what is the going rate for Plus Fours? Does anyone else have any other suggestions of people that can make them? I would like a few more options if possible.
Thanks for all the help guys!

Try here

https://www.spencers-trousers.com/index.php

quote:

Originally posted by Brad Hinn:
Well, Issac Walton will not make them without measuring me personally. Brocklehursts will make me a set, the price they are giving me is 300 GBP (or ~$500). That seems a little high to me what is the going rate for Plus Fours? Does anyone else have any other suggestions of people that can make them? I would like a few more options if possible.
Thanks for all the help guys!

Bespoke is nice of course but if you can get a fairly close fit, then these are pretty good quality: http://www.musto.com/fcp/categ...rs?resetFilters=true

Try www.alexander-james.co.uk

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Bespoke is nice of course but if you can get a fairly close fit, then these are pretty good quality: http://www.musto.com/fcp/categ...rs?resetFilters=true

They are breeks not Plus4's. There is and aways will be a considerable difference between the two.

quote:

Originally posted by miketaylor:
Try www.alexander-james.co.uk

The same as above.

Thanks guys I have sent of a few more enquires. I will let you know what I find out. I really appreciate the help.

I have worn corduroy breeks while skiing in very cold weather (below zero F.) and they work fine, if combined with heavy wool socks. Long underwear doesn't hurt either.

Consider why football players wear pants cut off below the knee, try it and you will understand why breeks are much more comfortable and less tiring than full-length pants for any extended walking, running or climbing. They work. Brad has the right idea. I was thinking about getting another pair this year, but the weather turned very warm here, so maybe next year.

Yesterday, I called a really nice Yorkshire-man at Spencers and placed an order for a made to measure pair of Plus Fours. He was really helpful and found a tweed that closely matches my jacket. I wanted to thank you guys for all your help. I would not have found them without you.

Now I cant wait to get back on the hill!!!

Brad, having spent two years recovering from Lymes disease caught from ticks in the highlands I now wear full length Fallraven trousers with gaiters if in the hills. I do not want to be bitten by ticks again. I generally used to wear shorts during the summer, particularly when walking in the hills. Not sure if I will do again.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
Permehrin is a insecticide made from flowers.

Works ok.. I think deet works better, but it is a poison.

I know this post is almost a year old, but I have to disagree with MOA.

Permethrin does not come from flowers. Permethrin is a synthetic compound that is based on a compound present in the chrysanthemum flower.

Permethrin, like deet, is a poision. Also like deet, perethrin is safe for humans but is effective against insects.

Permethrin and deet are not interchangeable. Permethrin is a long lasting(effective for two weeks and several washes) repellent that is intended for use on clothes, but not skin. Insects that land on permethrin treated clothing will often die. Deet on the other had is a short term repellent that is most effective applied to bare skin and it must be reapplied several times a day.

I just want to point this out as the diseases carried by ticks, mosquitoes, etc. are very dangerous. Far more dangerous than the possible side effects of permethrin or deet.

I use tweed plus fours fairly often and used them last fall for stalking stag in Perthshire.

Another option is British ebay, I find vintage heavy tweed plus fours for pretty cheap on there from time to time.

I'd also second the recommendation on treating your hunting clothing with permethrin if you are worried about ticks. It works well and I've been using it for year.

The last time I went Deerstalking in 2003 I got covered in ticks! Every night when I returned to the hotel I would pull them off my legs, big ones, small ones and really tiny ones. I had some on me the size of a grain of pepper, I have never seen anything like them. I would not notice them until the following day when I would get a red spot and sure enough there would be a tiny little tic.

I guess that I am lucky that I did not get Lymes disease! This year I will take precautions. I am planning of treating my clothes and skin as advised.

I have another question. Last time I went I wore long wool socks, breeks and gaiters. I had my socks tucked into my breeks. Should I pull my socks over the buckle on my plus fours then put my gaiters on? Would this create a better barrier for ticks? Granted last time my knees were exposed a lot of the time because my breeks were too short.

What are your thoughts?

Brad,

Ticks - some of my potential and previous clients are involved in developing insect repellents and Lyme disease treatments. The disease is not funny, I was on strong antibiotics for about 15 months and it took me a good years to shake it off. Symptoms - combine the feeling of the aches of a hard days hill stalking, with somebody hitting you over the back of the head and seasickness and extreme tiredness and you get the picture.

They don't know what percentage of ticks are infected with Lyme boreallis bacteria, but it could be as high as 10%.

But to protect yourself:

1) a physical barrier - bare knees crawling through heather not good. Permethrin washed is probably a good idea, although I wouldn't want permethrin against my skin all day and every day.

2) a good tick repellant on your skin

3) when you get off the hill wash and a good nitt shampoo - the sort of thing you use for kids with headlice. They like to go to the hot sweaty bits.

4) if you find ticks lift them off with a tick hook - available now in most outdoor shops in Scotland. They reckon if lift a tick off within 24 hrs chances off getting lymes is minimal. Don't pull off with fingers or tweezers -you risk making the tick vomit into your blood system.

5) if you feel at all unwell -flu like symptoms, or have any sort of rash and you have been bitten by ticks run to the doctor. State you suspect Lymes and get a two week course of antibiotics. That normally knocks it on the head. If you leave it longer it gets into system and takes a lot more treatment to get rid off.

Just take care

Heym

I've come late to this old post. But waht DJM says is pretty much 100% of it.

Some estates may, still, issues their stalkers, or keepers, or ghillies with a jacket and breeks but..

quote:

They work well and were the best option many years ago now however they are only worn as part of the tradition and highland stalking experiance as thats the guests expect.

Once the guests have gone and the tough business and weather that the hind cull brings and you wont see many highland stalkers wearing plus fours

However there are much better options available now get yourself some goretex trousers good walking boots and some decent gaitors.

quote:

Permethrin

Is great stuff I live in lymes centeral Wis had it twice not a good thing.

I like to spray it on my out side hunting gear with it. Chaps, gaitors pants,bird vest jacket

I would say it cuts the number of ticks I find by 95 plus percent great stuff. Last a couple of weeks then give another treatment

Living in New England, ticks are a way of life. I buy permethrin-impregnated clothing and I leave my hunting clothes in the garage and spray them with permethrin after almost every outing....including hats! I find them worst during spring turkey season, less so but still present through late fall.

Useless insect.....and devastating our moose herd in NH.....no calves are expected to have survived from last year. They've been finding moose with over 200,000 ticks on them! They die from anemia, not Lyme.

I am no stranger to ticks, we have plenty of them here. It is not uncommon to get ten to twenty on my pants as I walk down to the target and back at my range during the spring. But in that case they are easy to get off and kill before they ever get on your skin.

I am going to get some Permethrin and give it a try this spring here.

I will also treat my stalking clothing for my Scotland trip, the last souvenir that I want to bring back is Lymes disease

I absolutely hate ticks! They are really good for nothing!

Have a good hunt and do a hunt report. Where will you be hunting?

I will be Stalking in Deeside at Mar Lodge. I will definitely take pictures and post here!

To say that I am excited to return to the hill is an understatement!!!