Arran lease will be open to tender this time there will be no difference to any other lease .This i am told is because other groups are now being formed as a direct response to the Proposed legislation and they will need to be offered ground at the discounted rates that have been afforded to the other organisations . Will any one else except BASC Try for Arran i doubt it.

No- it will no doubt be swallowed up by a wealthy European syndicate and be closed to all but the very fortunate few......great bloody plan!

Don't forget those who have worked for years to make stalking accessible to those not fortunate enough to have it on tap or seeking that special red stalk.....no doubt they'll loose their jobs too.

Scot gun it is very sad but a refection of the times i certainly will be asking for the details.

SDLG,
which organisations have had discounted rates?
The lease on Arran was not discounted, so I presume it is some other organisations.

It will be sad if the lease goes to some European outfit or the someone with the dosh to make an outrageuos offer.
That means two of us will be out of work,me 7 years with the FC and Bob 30yrs with the FC, and that stalking will never come back onto the open market where by it is affordable to all.

g

Griff the BASC lease was severely discounted so was the BDS lease so is the STHunbert club lease etc etc now i am sure you will know this and i am sure that if you get into basc you will make sure that transparency is kept to the forefront. What i cannot understand is why most deerstalkers down south put up with these organisations taking ground solely for there own members at dramatically discounted prices.When the lands are public and should benefit the tax payer not take money from them. I think that all public ground should get put up for tender for every one not the chosen few.
Now Griff i have proved you wrong on this before wasn't it me that said it would be getting shut down and need to go to public tender take me to task if you want i only tell it as it is that's my way.
If i was running the lease area it would be broke down in to smaller sections and then put out to the highest bidder lets get as much money as we can for our ground. That way we can stop all the parasite that buy up multiple leases and resell to the unsuspecting deerstalkers.

SDLG,
yes you were right when it came down to the BASC lease having to be re-tendered for,The reason for that was the stink that you created with the with the FC and your MP, about a level playing field..
I would imagine that now, there will be NO discounted leases, only market value which will be fair for all as far as the FC is concerned,with no comeback on them.

Hats off to you Dav'y for your persistence, its paid off, but at what cost!

regards
griff

Punktuashion wouldn't go amiss!

I doubt much hind culling would be done by Europeans or do they subcontract that. How do Europeans manage the DSC requirements?

Griff our sport is full of back slapping wannabes and it is time that the deerstalkers who makes it all go round stood up and became accountable. Now i am sure if there had been no underhanded dealings with BASC BDS etc then there would have been no immediate u turn by the FC. Now while it BASC gave Members a chance at a Red Deer it also made a lot of money off the Scottish TAX payer this in my opinion was unfair. I feel that the new legislation has made the deerstalkers feel that if they all need to be at the same standard then they should all have the same chances.I do know that there were alot of discussions behind the scenes most were done behind my back but this has always been the same with the Top money deerstalkers.I would also suggest Griff this is just a start a small pimple smoothed off and achene faced kid . lots more work to be done before there is even a resemblance of fairness.

What utter rubbish!
Like you say you always tell it as it is.
So lets tell it like it is.
You didn't get what you wanted from the FC, so you kicked up a shit storm, e-mailing your MP and the heads of Forestry, squealing how unfair it was that these organisations were getting prferential treatment.
You say you want whats best for the Scottish taxpayer,perhaps you didn't take into account all the revenue that poured into the local economy on Arran, at a time when it was most needed,nearly 750 thousand pounds over the last five years, that was an indirect tax benefit to Scotland and Arran.
So lets not muddy the waters hear, you didn't get what you wanted,"ground to train people on,and the FC to stump up a larder"so you stirred up as much shit as possible for your own benefit, without seeing the bigger picture.
Do you honestly think that Fc will now give any grounds after the malestrom you caused, and what about the every day deerstalker, that opportunity and any further opportunities that were in the pipeline, scuppered, by your actions.
Be sure when you visit Arran to tell the local hostelry's,garages,restaurants and lets not forget the deerstalker it was you that caused it's demise...

Sorry Griff but the bigger picture is the Deerstalker not the BASC members now i am sure that the area on Arran can generate more than 750thousand in the next 5 years some of this might be foreign money that we really need. Now if BASC didn't get such a diffing lease from every body else then things could have been different.Please remember that the deerstalker of Scotland that has rights might not want to be part of the organisation that you are part of. We did ask for ground and feel we should have got it but hey as long as every one gets treated the same that's what really matters. With regards the MSP you talk about they are in full support of my actions and i am sure they will now be keeping a very close eye on the Deer Sector who are draining this country's resources

SLDG I have no horse in this race but if BASC lose Arran then how does the average stalker with no land and a very small disposable income get the chance to train towards their DSC2 and open up the potential to get a syndicate place or a lease?

I usually pay for about 4 days stalking per year in Scotland and I might shoot one or two deer per year. This isn't choice, it is what I have the time and money to do. So, now we have a "level playing field" whereby rich Europeans are buying up all our tenders how do I get my DSC2, or even approach getting the experience to think about doing it?

As I've said I know nothing about this situation, or about you, but I can't help but suspect that your motivation in keeping BASC out of Arran can't be entirely unselfish or benign. What have you to gain by stopping the UK deer stalker from getting access to some affordable stalking on Arran?

I should highligh, as way of a declaration of interest, that I've never been to Arran as yet due for the most part to lack of time but that it was my intention to try and make it for a hind week at some point in the next few years.

Caorach you are right to question any ones motivation when something that seems good is in fact removed, First of all the Basc scheme was not a training area for people to get to the standard set out by the government or FC. May I QUOTE Griff On this one.
Quote"The Arran Stalking Scheme came into existence to offer BASC members the opportunity to stalk at a reasonable cost.
It is not a training scheme,never has been,never will be.
It is an opportunity to shoot red deer, that you would normally be paying £1200 per week for the privilege.
Nothing more nothing less.

That does not mean that there is no advice given or experienced game.
Those that have been have gained a great deal, those that have not continue to guess. end Quote

Now there certainly has passed allot of water under the bridge since this all started but the main issue was that we (the stalkers of the central belt )were having our deerstalking taken over by the Deer sector if we did not get our selves in to recognised groups theses groups would deal with any problem deer in there own specific areas. If we did not panel were being set up by the deer sector headed by the DCS and FC and they would move into the central belt were necessary. So we set up the groups these groups were not like the large financial based groups up north but more member based from hard core deerstalkers most of whom have never heard of the DCS or Had any dealings with the FC .But the problem came when we asked the government for training grounds. This was given the cold shoulder by the DCS and they passed us on to the FC. They kept it moving around for a while but it was going no were during this process it came about that large areas of ground had been given out not to help stalkers but to make large organizations profit. The government through MSP decided that if this was in fact the case then a well established group would be able to get the same benefits. The FC DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD NOT LIKE TO HAVE THERE GROUND GO OUT TO VERY EXPEARIENCED CHAPS AS THIS WOULD UNDERMINE THERE OWN JOBS. So there we have it one rule for some and one rule for the pour the chaps in the group have never been trained to the DMQ standard so will loose all the stalking if they don't there are in my area alone lanarkshire over 300 stalkers that have there own ground don't bother any one but will loose it through the deer sectors push of the legislation. For me i would have love BASC to keep there ground and the BDS this would have meant we would have been offered the same and then the guys that really needed help would have got it. But we are still working on this and i am sure something will brake through for the working man in the street.

SLDG, I am all for stalkers going it alone and avoiding the big groups in fact I think the majority of stalkers are individuals who can rely on their own resources and take responsibility for their own actions.

Can I be clear that what you are saying is that 300 Lanarkshire stalkers, many or all with their own ground, wanted more ground on which to do DSC2 training to be provided by the state? Is it then reasonable to say that as this ground was not forthcoming they looked at other groups who had access to ground and then raised objections about this access?

If you had an informal group of stalkers in the area with ground would it not have been reasonable, and probably more effective, to carry out training on the ground already available to the group? That way you could have forged ahead with your training while BASC continued to offer opportunities to those from across the country with no ground at all. Also if you really felt that more ground was required for training might it not haven been better to work with the likes of BASC to see if, for example, they might not have made a week on Arran available to you?

I appreciate that the BASC scheme was not a training scheme but as I'm sure you will understand there is a big difference between shooting a deer with a professional stalker who, basically, does everything except pull the trigger, and going out to shoot a deer on your own. The BASC scheme offered novice, less well off, less experienced stalkers the chance to get out on the hill and take full responsibility for their stalking with no professional stalker over their shoulder. It also allowed them a week to do this with the opportunity to meet with other like minded people and talk over their success or errors. So, it may not have been a training course but it certainly gave people the chance to gain a lot of experience and that is a chance that is not open to many if they don't have their own ground. All most all of those who went along seemed to enjoy the scheme and I'm sure you could also have gone had you of wished. I think you will agree that it would be a great shame if this resource was lost to us and although I haven't been to Arran yet I watch the dates each year to see if maybe I could fit in a week.

Is there any chance that the 300 stalkers that make up your group might be willing to offer a similar scheme on your ground should the Arran scheme close? You seem confident that BASC made a profit so it would generate income for your group while also replacing the Arran scheme in terms of opportunity for the novice or less well off stalker.

Caorach you see we never pulled the BASC ground the FC did we did not make any objections quite the opposite. The fact that the scheme was pulled had a very negative effect on our push for land. Now while most of us have ground to stalk on we do not have ground to train on and as most will know it is hard to get an individual farm to let multiple people on to there ground to train. Also deerstalkers don't like other deerstalkers walking over there prized ground it just takes one bad egg to cut some one Else's throat and that would be the end. So it was an area of public ground that would have taken us forward ready to meet the DCS legislation. Most that live in Scotland understand the situation here but many out with this area are not going to be effected by the legislation so a push for training by them will be later.
You said we might have talked to BASC that would have fell on deaf ears we are not members and dont want to be our group is with SACS But BASC new what was happening all the way just griff was a few days behind hence his not knowing that the Scheme was under threat. tHEY JUST KEPT QUITE THE I AM ALRIGHT JACK ATTITUDE

quote:

Originally posted by griff:
What utter rubbish!
Like you say you always tell it as it is.
So lets tell it like it is.
You didn't get what you wanted from the FC, so you kicked up a shit storm, e-mailing your MP and the heads of Forestry, squealing how unfair it was that these organisations were getting prferential treatment.
You say you want whats best for the Scottish taxpayer,perhaps you didn't take into account all the revenue that poured into the local economy on Arran, at a time when it was most needed,nearly 750 thousand pounds over the last five years, that was an indirect tax benefit to Scotland and Arran.
So lets not muddy the waters hear, you didn't get what you wanted,"ground to train people on,and the FC to stump up a larder"so you stirred up as much shit as possible for your own benefit, without seeing the bigger picture.
Do you honestly think that Fc will now give any grounds after the malestrom you caused, and what about the every day deerstalker, that opportunity and any further opportunities that were in the pipeline, scuppered, by your actions.
Be sure when you visit Arran to tell the local hostelry's,garages,restaurants and lets not forget the deerstalker it was you that caused it's demise...

Griff

"What utter rubbish!"

I see you have our resident glasgow mouth piece well and truly sussed.

If ever there was a disaffected scottish killer of deer it would be old Longshot. Otherwise known as SLDG.

"Do you honestly think that Fc will now give any grounds after the malestrom you caused, and what about the every day deerstalker, that opportunity and any further opportunities that were in the pipeline, scuppered, by your actions."

Those in the seats of power at the FC have long memories and access to many forms of information with regards to who's who and who's doing what, and where, when it comes to the deer stalking fraternity. Lets hope that those everyday stalkers that will now find those opportunities severely restricted by the actions of a few individuals have as long memories when those few individuals come onto forums and discussion groups trying too plead their cause in the years to come.

I am sure there will be plenty of us around to remind them should they happen to forget.

quote:

Originally posted by SLDG:
Now while most of us have ground to stalk on we do not have ground to train on and as most will know it is hard to get an individual farm to let multiple people on to there ground to train. Also deerstalkers don't like other deerstalkers walking over there prized ground it just takes one bad egg to cut some one Else's throat and that would be the end. So it was an area of public ground that would have taken us forward ready to meet the DCS legislation.
<snip>
tHEY JUST KEPT QUITE THE I AM ALRIGHT JACK ATTITUDE

To be honet SLDG you are not winning me over here. As I've said before I have no horse in this one and have no knowledge of the circumstances so this isn't a personal attack on you at all. However as a BASC member and someone who did consider a syndicate place in Scotland a while back I really do have some concerns about your situation. Quite clearly the relationship within your group of 300 stalkers is based on mistrust in view of what you say. That alone should be enough to set alarm bells ringing.

However, you still haven't been clear on what is in this for the general stalking community. I am clear that you, and 300 of your mates, despite having access to land want access to more land on the rather thin pretext of "training." What about training for the rest of us? What about training for the very many stalkers who have no land at all and who need to get the training in order to get land? You, and 300 others, already have land on which you don't require DSC2 and that is great. Most of the rest who don't have land now need to have DSC2 as many syndicate places are on FC ground and those are the only options we have.

I would suggest that by undermining, if that is what did take place, the BASC position on Arran you may have acted in cynical self interest by limiting the number of people who can hope to achieve DSC2 and, therefore, limiting the number who can tender for FC leases. You have made it quite clear that you and your 300 associates want more land, despite what must already be a significant holding, and it seems to me that your intention is to do this at the expense of novice or less well off stalkers. What are you offering in return? Can I come and stalk unaccompanied on your ground for a very modest cost? How do I get my DSC2 and the chance to have some ground of my own if you are preventing me from getting experience on Arran while keeping your own land for yourself?

I know that BASC are far from perfect but the Arran scheme has been very popular and while it has had its ups and downs I think it reasonable to state that many people have gained from it. It also offered a unique opportunity to the novice and those of us on a very limited income and I don't for one minute believe that BASC made any money on it so this gives me to consider just who is exhibiting the "I'm alright Jack" attitude.

I hope that I'm not being unfair to you SLDG but you must understand that when people like myself lose our only real chance at unaccompanied hill stalking for red deer, plus a stalking scheme which would greatly assist our chances of achieving DSC2, plus some stalking which we might just be able to afford, it is only reasonable to expect us to be a little annoyed. When you appear on here gloating over BASC possibly losing the lease, and me losing all the opportunities detailed above, then you must appreciate that you are not going to shoot to the top of my Christmas card list. BASC have provided me with stalking opportunities, what are you and your group of 300 stalkers going to do for me?

I had 2 trips to Arran, one on hinds and one on stags. They were both fantastic stalking, well worth the money(I have also had syndicate leases in Scotland before)
To be able to get what may be some of the best
stalking in Scotland, unaccompanied until you need a beast recovered, at such prices seemed to me to be a very good deal.
The naysayers were running it down before the first BASC member set foot on Arran.
But hey Griff, now you know. No good deed goes unpunished.

You see the ground we were after was for training and the cost of the ground to any one wanting to stalk on it would have been the Deer this would then have been used to cover the cost,s of a community chill area were all information would have been collected. Then passed on to the DCS who demand this as part of being on there FCR. The opportunities for the deerstalkers would have been fantastic had they got the same treatment as BASC BDS STHUBERT They would have had access to training ground and could have took it on to DSC 2 With no panic about doing it with in the twelve months like on FC ground. This training ground and others like it would have gave access to deerstalkers (not just BASC members )who do not have the money to do Lev 2 through the system as it is. There were to be a few groups set up over the full central belt and this could have made sure that stalkers who already stalk on there own little bits of ground could have started to work in a collaborative manner. It was to be a starting point and i am sure would have been very good one it has been backed in theory by the DCS and FC putting it in to practice requires the government to stoup up time and ground. This was an opertunity for all who could not afford the cost of getting to the government standard. Like i said we never pulled the ground the FC did with full discusions with BASC They could have kept it going and then every one could have had a share of the pie.

I honestly think that what you propose is a great idea SLDG. If you have 300 like minded associates and let us be very modest and say that each of them has 100 acres of stalking then you have access to 30,000 acres of ground, that must be about 40 square miles. Now, I know you've suggested that you don't want any training on your ground because you don't trust the other members of your group not to steal it on you, However, there must be someone among those 300 people who could offer you ground for your scheme? It is such a good idea and I'm sure there would be money to be made in terms of providing accommodation, food etc. to the trainees even if they don't pay a penny for the actual training so the landowner might actually turn a profit. The BASC, BDS and others could carry right on with their Arran scheme and have no impact upon your operation from what I can see and your scheme would give stalkers another option which is always a good thing. So, why did BASC need to stop before you could start? I know you are going to come back to "land for training" but you've got 300 people with land by your own admission and I'd be sure that in any such large group someone would be open to your proposal if it was, as it seems, such a good idea.

Caorach

Over the course of this thread I believe you have managed to dig under the skin of Longshots original proposition to the very core issues behind it.

I have to say I am unconvinced by the numbers of central belt stalkers claimed to be in favour of the scheme and the the ability of any of those involved to manage the logistic and administrative aspects of such a proposal effectively and more importantly impartially for the good of all involved. Be they existing permission holders, experienced stalkers wishing to achieve their DSC2 at little cost or novices seeking access to stalking and associated training.
like you say if there were so many willing permission holders wanting to get involved the need for free donated or low cost ground was an irrelevance. All this persistent whining about an un-level playing field and soap box politicalling when the FC/DSC didn't or wouldn't play the game is little more than sour grapes and an ham fisted attempt at kicking over the traces.

The only results of it has been a massive own goal by way of the potential loss of the BASC Arran stalking to it members.

Way to go Davie!

But then as Longshot has already said he and none of his claimed 300 central belt permission holders are BASC members, so why should he or they care. Apart from the fact that he or they didn't get their own way despite their attempts at the politics.

Like i said Basc have not shut Arran it is still on going. If The FC Scotland have decided that there is an issue with giving ground to groups no matter what the reason you got to respect there decision. It is down to the Big guns to sort out there own mess not me i have no effect on decisions. With regards our own ground that's for us to have and use as we see fit and also at the mercy of our landowners. Public ground can be used as a fully active training area with all members included (collaboration) just like the BDS area and the st hubert club areas. most of the BASC members and other group members ETC but still use the BASC grounds and why not its makes sense to use public grounds have plenty of public grounds The groups have Cumbria and one in Norfolk so have the other groups .For me its a very selfish approach by the FC to ask BASC to tender like the rest of us as i believe that BASC and its members should get special privileges..In Scotland 77 % of the fc ground doesn't have any leases on it and costs us the tax payer money to manage so why not control deer train members of each group to the standard required win win all round.
You have got to remember this situation was only brought on by the forthcoming legislation that will say we all need to be trained to a standard to shoot deer or loose the privilege.Like i said Basc have not shut Arran it is still on going. If The FC Scotland have decided that there is an issue with giving ground to groups no matter what the reason you got to respect there decision. It is down to the Big guns to sort out there own mess not me i have no effect on decisions. With regards our own ground that's for us to have and use as we see fit and also at the mercy of our landowners. Public ground can be used as a fully active training area with all members included (collaboration) just like the BDS area and the st hubert club areas. most of the BASC members and other group members ETC but still use the BASC grounds and why not its makes sense to use public grounds have plenty of public grounds The groups have Cumbria and one in Norfolk so have the other groups .For me its a very selfish approach by the FC to ask BASC to tender like the rest of us as i believe that BASC and its members should get special privileges..In Scotland 77 % of the fc ground doesn't have any leases on it and costs us the tax payer money to manage so why not control deer train members of each group to the standard required win win all round.
You have got to remember this situation was only brought on by the forthcoming legislation that will say we all need to be trained to a standard to shoot deer or loose the privilege.
Post Options Enable emoticons?

You lot are so blinkered, could it not be that the "resident glasgow mouth piece" has actually rattled some cages here by asking awkward questions of the FC & DCS that no-one has bothered to ask before. The outcome may/could be that individuals & deer groups actually get a better chance of renting ground at realistic prices.
If you had taken the time to read between the lines of the Wildlife proposal then you would or should have realised that they use that trendy word "collaborative" when referring to deer management, deer groups will be the way forward when the bill is made law, and it will without much alteration, joining a deer group will open the gates to more stalkers either new or old, they do not want maverick stalkers which we individual recreational stalkers are.

I would hazard a guess that the "resident glasgow mouthpiece" you refer to, was also responsible for drumming up more responses to the proposed bill than most. Think about whats written here rather than shoot the messenger.

One point that should be mentioned is that whilst is was great for basc members to obtain low cost hind/stag stalking on arran, this type of arrangement is not allowed on any other FC ground (i.e dmq 1 & 2) so why not, why should some organisations get preferential treatment, different rules and not have to compete via tender. (this also happens in england i.e thetford, but I understand moves are afoot to question that cosy little arrangement as well!)
The time is ripe to shake up these unfair arrangements.
After all, why should certain organisations have cosy little "deals" with state owned land?

quote:

Originally posted by galloway:
You lot are so blinkered, could it not be that the "resident glasgow mouth piece" has actually rattled some cages here by asking awkward questions of the FC & DCS that no-one has bothered to ask before. The outcome may/could be that individuals & deer groups actually get a better chance of renting ground at realistic prices.
If you had taken the time to read between the lines of the Wildlife proposal then you would or should have realised that they use that trendy word "collaborative" when referring to deer management, deer groups will be the way forward when the bill is made law, and it will without much alteration, joining a deer group will open the gates to more stalkers either new or old, they do not want maverick stalkers which we individual recreational stalkers are.

I would hazard a guess that the "resident glasgow mouthpiece" you refer to, was also responsible for drumming up more responses to the proposed bill than most. Think about whats written here rather than shoot the messenger.

One point that should be mentioned is that whilst is was great for basc members to obtain low cost hind/stag stalking on arran, this type of arrangement is not allowed on any other FC ground (i.e dmq 1 & 2) so why not, why should some organisations get preferential treatment, different rules and not have to compete via tender. (this also happens in england i.e thetford, but I understand moves are afoot to question that cosy little arrangement as well!)
The time is ripe to shake up these unfair arrangements.
After all, why should certain organisations have cosy little "deals" with state owned land?

I have no involvement in this matter or discussion. I note you are new to the forum.

You might generally introduce yourself and state any interest you might have regarding the BASC, Arran DMG's etc.

Reading this and other threads, there seems to be a growing spilt within stalking between those who see themselves as "professional deer managers / cullers" and the "recreational stalkers".

It now seems to be politically correct to cull large numbers of deer in the name of management, in or out of season with no regard to welfare etc. At the same time, particularly in Scotland, there seems to be an increasing prejudice against the hobby stalker, we are somehow guilty of something unpleasant and undefined because we stalk for pleasure rather than profit or pay. As if it makes a blind bit of difference to the deer if it is shot by a "professional" rather than an "amateur".

Anyone care to comment?

CD you are correct and this post highlights what is wrong with stalking certainly north of the border, We have members of our group who are active in contracting and the government don't blink an eye in giving out thousands of pounds to these members . You see we have the DCS and our local deer officer dose not come from this area so dose not understand why some one might want to stalk deer leave some for next year and generally in my opinion manage them in the correct and proper way.He comes from the borders and came straight out of university and did all his deer management in a lamp. He said "if you can call that management referring to the way i my self understood management and they way the chaps in fife grow deer for trophies. Now to me if you can get your deer to top standard and have a crop of similar size year after year you got to be doing something right .But hey that's just my opinion.
This chap with others in the DCS wrote the legislation and this is the reason we had to form groups this is also the reason we are going to make dam sure that the government listen to us and give us what we ask for.

DCS WAY OF DEALING WITH DEER IN MY AREA.
[COLOR=red][SIZE=7]18) Would this mean the end of voluntary deer management groups and
planning?
At the core of the suggestions for change is the recognition that where effective, voluntary
deer management groups should remain the foundation of deer management in Scotland.
Only where the voluntary approach is failing to deliver public benefit or where voluntary
deer management groups do not exist would compulsory deer management planning be
invoked. Indeed, having compulsory planning powers available as a last resort should
secure greater buy-in to the voluntary system.
19) What about urban deer or places where is no deer management group? How
would panels operate to ensure that issues are dealt with?
The spread of deer into more urban areas is a key concern, and any new legislation must
be able to tackle the issues raised by deer in and around communities, as the expansion of
woodlands and lack of effective management can lead to increases in numbers,
particularly of roe deer, with associated problems of damage to gardens, cemeteries etc.
In and around towns and cities, land holdings are often smaller than in more upland areas,
and less land is managed for sporting purposes. This can make the effective management
of deer harder to achieve. The issues raised are significantly different from those in the
open range, as are the deer species involved.
Rather than impose upland style deer management groups in these areas, a panel
approach is proposed. An analogous approach, which DCS has already used successfully
in localised road traffic accident hotspots, involves the setting up of a time-limited formal
panel that is required to develop and deliver a deer management plan. This approach
would be expanded to facilitate the deer management planning and delivery required
without setting up a system of permanent deer management groups.[/SIZE][/COLOR]


This is were most of the deerstalkers in the central belt excel and this is why we organised our selves as quick as we can the Government need to know what this would mean in reality eg the DCS moved into Mugdock Park and in the time honored panel are still there 5years later.CD you are correct and this post highlights what is wrong with stalking certainly north of the border, We have members of our group who are active in contracting and the government don't blink an eye in giving out thousands of pounds to these members . You see we have the DCS and our local deer officer dose not come from this area so dose not understand why some one might want to stalk deer leave some for next year and generally in my opinion manage them in the correct and proper way.He comes from the borders and came straight out of university and did all his deer management in a lamp. He said "if you can call that management referring to the way i my self understood management and they way the chaps in fife grow deer for trophies. Now to me if you can get your deer to top standard and have a crop of similar size year after year you got to be doing something right .But hey that's just my opinion.
This chap with others in the DCS wrote the legislation and this is the reason we had to form groups this is also the reason we are going to make dam sure that the government listen to us and give us what we ask for.

My interest is deerstalking, I have been stalking deer in the uk for over 20 years, I am a recreational stalker although I have controlled deer in a professional capacity.
I also believe there seems to be an unnecessary rift between recreational & "professional" stalkers, after all, most of us stalk deer because we like them regardless of whether you get paid to do it or not.
The apparent split reminds me of the foxhunting ban, I dont/did'nt follow the hounds but I supported them by going to the marches in london, only to then watch some toffy nosed ponce on tv saying that foxes will die horrible deaths at the hand of night shooters with rifles (they will never get my support again)

I dont agree that it is seen to be "politically correct" to cull deer in large numbers, if you own commercial forestry and the deer numbers are to high, then the recreational stalker generally will not reduce the numbers to an acceptable level, as for having little regard to welfare, I presume you are referring to out of season & night shooting licenses, in scotland an out of season license gives you an extra 20 days at the beginning of the female season (roe & red) with the stipulation that dependent young are culled first during those "20" days.
Night shooting does not start until November 1st so I can not see a welfare issue there, as for the extra days at the end of the official hind season, then surely practitioners use their own judgement whether or not to cull a pregnant female.
I was a member of basc for 27 years until last year, I moved to another organisation as their insurance was more comprehensive in addition to a very professional legal help dept.
Arran was something I was always going to do but never got round to it, and as for DMG's I think they will be the only real way to protect our recreational stalking when the scottish wildlife bill goes through.

quote:

Originally posted by galloway:
You lot are so blinkered, could it not be that the "resident glasgow mouth piece" has actually rattled some cages here by asking awkward questions of the FC & DCS that no-one has bothered to ask before. The outcome may/could be that individuals & deer groups actually get a better chance of renting ground at realistic prices.

I would hazard a guess that the "resident glasgow mouthpiece" you refer to, was also responsible for drumming up more responses to the proposed bill than most. Think about whats written here rather than shoot the messenger.

On the contrary to you 2 points. The "resident glasgow mouth piece" has done nothing to move the situation forward to a satisfactory conclusion in the slightest. In fact all that has been achieved has been a hardening of the FC attitude to everyone.

quote:

One point that should be mentioned is that whilst is was great for basc members to obtain low cost hind/stag stalking on arran, this type of arrangement is not allowed on any other FC ground (i.e dmq 1 & 2) so why not, why should some organisations get preferential treatment, different rules and not have to compete via tender. (this also happens in england i.e thetford, but I understand moves are afoot to question that cosy little arrangement as well!)
The time is ripe to shake up these unfair arrangements.
After all, why should certain organisations have cosy little "deals" with state owned land?

FC have always had a flexible attitude to how stringently they applied certain criteria in regards to stalkers need for certain qualifications. Mostly when it suited their own needs. So why try and make it a big deal now unless thought it would serve a purpose and hopefully provide some additional free ground under the guise of facilitating a training program.

I am beginning to recognise certain elements in your posts from those made on other forums. I'm sure that operators fist will eventually allow a better fix to be made.

Top hand(Harry Troll) you seem to be in the know (not) first of all the land that i was asking for to train new and existing stalkers was public ground managed by the FC. If the government of Scotland don't want to help the current stalker get to there new required standard that's fine but i as chairman of the group would be failing in my duty if i did not try and obtain such an area. Flexible attitudes as you call them only lead to back handed money deals and the government should be tightening up on such Carry's on after what they were caught doing. I do not need any ground of my own and find my self in a very good position regards deerstalking but just because i am alright jack don't make it right to turn my back on others who are less fortunate be it through opportunity education or moneytary reasons. There are many many deerstalkers in the central belt who will loose there right to stalk deer on there own ground if the legislation goes through. What a resource to loose no other business would loose such a resource while in the process of planting 12500 hec per year for the next 10 years, That is what is happening in the central belt. This situation will need deerstalkers who are trained unless this cash strapped government can hand out even more money to the deer sector.
Now thats the last i will say on the subject.But on a brighter note what a morning stalking i had the other day the eviction of youngsters is well underway on my ground.

These two bucks were giving it to each other big stile




This was the looser beaten but still around a nice youngster.



A friend from belgium who came over for a shot at the bucks he took six in all and for chaps that live so far away they have a very knowlagable approach to sustainable deer managment.

quote:

I am beginning to recognise certain elements in your posts from those made on other forums. I'm sure that operators fist will eventually allow a better fix to be made.

Whoopee inspector clouseau, certain elements eh, I also recognised your slant & language before sldg confirmed it, it is the infamous harry, jees you get about!
Not sure or interested what you are dribbling on about the "operators fix" as usual you will try to take the topic down a meaningless road, I for one will not be drawn.

quote:

Originally posted by SLDG:
Top hand(Harry Troll) you seem to be in the know (not) first of all the land that i was asking for to train new and existing stalkers was public ground managed by the FC.

longshot if ever there was a troll it would be you, so don't try and gain any sympathy with that ploy. There is no such thing in the UK as public ground! We are to small an island and have to long a history for that to happen. If as you claim you have the support of 300 stalkers all in the central belt all with their own permissions and all having the same desire to achieve the required levels of qualifications and to assist those with out the where with all to gain theirs also. As already stated you would have no need for "public land" or free FC land to meet your ambitions to provide a cost effective training facility. The fact that those of whom you demanded such opportunity decided to not acquiesce to your demands speaks volumes to those of us able to see past the BS.

quote:

Flexible attitudes as you call them only lead to back handed money deals and the government should be tightening up on such Carry's on after what they were caught doing.

Wild and unsubstantiated accusations form no part of a reasoned debate , yet you persist in making them, as per usual. Both the FC and the DCS are public bodies and neither of them would directly financially benefit in any way from a "back handed money deal". I suspect it more of a case of excessive amounts of sour grapes on your part having failed to secure your additional free stalking for you "group" if thats what you want to call them.

quote:

I do not need any ground of my own and find my self in a very good position regards deerstalking but just because i am alright jack don't make it right to turn my back on others who are less fortunate be it through opportunity education or moneytary reasons. There are many many deerstalkers in the central belt who will loose there right to stalk deer on there own ground if the legislation goes through.

If you feel so passionately about this inbalance and lack of facility why not endeavour to address the need from your own and your fellow "group" members permissions, at a minimal cost to those you have identified as being in need. If as you say "find my self in a very good position regards deerstalking". If the "group" members are as philanthropically minded as you claim the lack of trust issue between the core membership shouldn't prove too demanding a task to over come.

quote:

Now thats the last i will say on the subject.

That would be a first!

quote:

A friend from belgium who came over for a shot at the bucks he took six in all and for chaps that live so far away they have a very knowlagable approach to sustainable deer managment.

Presumably you charged your "friend" your standard rate?



[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by galloway:
Whoopee inspector clouseau,

Its "operators fist" not operators fix. But it doesn't really matter, putting a history to the name is relatively easy should one be so inclined.

If 70%ish of the FC land in Scotland is currently not let to stalkers and the SLDMG need more land why do they give a toss what's happening on Aarran or Thetford etc? Thetford isn't even under the laws that are being cited as driving this move for training in Scotland and I'm sure with all the stalking the 300 members already apparently have why should they give a toss about what the Herberts are doing?

The problem here as I see it is that there is a group that wishes to achieve a goal in getting land to "train" stalkers on. This is a great and commendable aim. Yet when you aim to do any venture business or otherwise and your perceived route to success involves instigating the failure of others you are doomed to end up wondering where you went wrong.

The reason Aarran works is because it is operated to suit the needs not only of the stalkers, but also of the FC and their own commercial interests/needs. What you propose could indeed work if it wasn't for the fact that you seem to be unable to accept that both approaches to stalking could run concurrently. With the right approach, an organisation like yours could have picked up a suitable lease and gone about its merry business, but by trying to facilitate your aims by disrupting others then you have just labelled yourself to the detriment of your 300 potential members.

It is sad that stalking seems to be getting split up by a bunch of petulant individuals that seem to have introduced some kind of petty class politics into an otherwise chilled out pass time. We see it on the forums all the time and it always comes down to complaining about "cliques" or money.

It's a sad state of affairs that will kill stalking faster than any antis could have done.
FB

Fallow Buck, is it not concievable that when sldg asked FCS for land for training, he was told that it was not possible to have preferential treatment and they would have to tender like everyone else, then when FCS were reminded that basc were given preferential terms for arran, FCS had to think again.
If one organisation gets a "deal" why cant another? the title of the topic says it all I think "level playing field"

[/QUOTE] Its "operators fist" not operators fix. But it doesn't really matter, putting a history to the name is relatively easy should one be so inclined.[/QUOTE]

Yawn!

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
If 70%ish of the FC land in Scotland is currently not let to stalkers and the SLDMG need more land why do they give a toss what's happening on Aarran or Thetford etc? Thetford isn't even under the laws that are being cited as driving this move for training in Scotland and I'm sure with all the stalking the 300 members already apparently have why should they give a toss about what the Herberts are doing?

The problem here as I see it is that there is a group that wishes to achieve a goal in getting land to "train" stalkers on. This is a great and commendable aim. Yet when you aim to do any venture business or otherwise and your perceived route to success involves instigating the failure of others you are doomed to end up wondering where you went wrong.

The reason Aarran works is because it is operated to suit the needs not only of the stalkers, but also of the FC and their own commercial interests/needs. What you propose could indeed work if it wasn't for the fact that you seem to be unable to accept that both approaches to stalking could run concurrently. With the right approach, an organisation like yours could have picked up a suitable lease and gone about its merry business, but by trying to facilitate your aims by disrupting others then you have just labelled yourself to the detriment of your 300 potential members.

It is sad that stalking seems to be getting split up by a bunch of petulant individuals that seem to have introduced some kind of petty class politics into an otherwise chilled out pass time. We see it on the forums all the time and it always comes down to complaining about "cliques" or money.

It's a sad state of affairs that will kill stalking faster than any antis could have done.
FB

You have hit the nail well and truly on the head with your insightfully comments and observations and I am sure there are 1000's of stalkers out there that would agree whole heartily with you. I know I certainly do!
Greed and envy are unattractive aspects of the human psyche, especially when in order to achieve their goals people allow them to be the principle driving forces in their dealings with others, irrespective of the results to the 2nd party or indeed other uninvolved 3rd parties.
I am sure I am not the only one who considers such behaviour tantamount to thuggish bullying. So much so that you would expect to see the tell tales signs reminiscent of the football hooligans of the 70's and 80's, of low IQ's, shaven heads and multiple tattoos amongst the perpetrators.

What I find most interesting in this debate in level playing fields , issues have been raised in respect to training facilities on ground controlled by Forest Commission Scotland.

Surely they are working in accordance with directive from the Deer Commision Scotland who have presented to the Scottish Parliment ammendments to the Wild Life Bill that brings issues that all those stalking in Scotland must have a DSC2 min Qualification to stalk unaccompanied.

So in effect the FC for Scotland are breaching those recommendations are they not? by leasing out land that is controlled by them to B.A.S.C under those proposals, where numerous stalkers at present are allowed to stalk unnacompanied.

Unless Griff is going to take each stalker individually out this is in complete breach of Deer Commision for Scotlands proposals , so indeed there appears to be an unequal playing field, irrespective of individuals not obtaining stalking ground.
Whether they obtained the lease at a knock down or uncompetative rate compared with other leases is a issue that should be addressed with the bodies that control the Forestry Commission for Scotland , and not bandied about on an open forum, non of this can do anyone any good whatso ever.

Just my Honest Opinion
Alf

Alf, well said, thats exactly what I, and sldg have been saying, some members of this forum seem to think that we have a problem with recreational stalkers and basc, a level playing field is all its about

Seems to me, looking in on this thread as a "recreational stalker" who has benefitted from several consecutive visits to the Arran lease, that this bickering & sniping just makes the day approach faster, when any "level playing field" that keeps getting a mention, has a visit from the anti's plough, you lot remind me of two groups of meerkats going head to head, just that no one is looking outward where the real threat is.

Meerkats! wtf are you on about? tophand aka harry the troll should be able to get you a deal with his psychiatrist.

Well you are not going to benefit from any more cosy little deals are you because the playing field is now level. SIMPLE!

Bye bye

unless Arran were the only area that FCS had to lease to anybody, then i really do not understand why anybody would mention them in an attempt to get a lease themself's.

This really seems to me as the idiot kindergarden child that gets everybody thrown away from the playground, by their loud and annoying acting up, by screaming "why cant i when they are allowed"
I do hope that, this is not the case at all.

quote:

Galloway wrote:
Well you are not going to benefit from any more cosy little deals are you because the playing field is now level. SIMPLE!

Dear galloway, the only thing simple here would be your mind, as by now, the level playing field means NO playing field.

have fun at the psych ward.

peter