Hello everybody, as I said in the title of the discussion, I am interested to find what is the opinion of both, hunters and outfitters, regarding the european sliding scale for trophy fees.

It is just the way the European market have evolved. If you see outfitters offer hunts in Europe with no sliding scales for the trophy fees, you know that it will be in an area that very seldom produces good throphys.

As long as hunters pay for this sliding scale, the good areas will continue to charge the sliding scale.

You really have very little say in a sliding scale, as most of Europe has state owned game and the sliding scale is used by the state to charge the outfitter, therefore it has to be used to charge the hunter. People always act like the sliding scale is a scam, I've hunted Germany for a good many years and never had a complaint.

its great, honest people all over,plus if hunt wasnt succesufull u got some money back,

I haven't really had any problems with it, though don't particularly care for it, it is what it is.

From my experiences, the guides know their area and the quality of game it holds. If you make it known what your limit is or what level you are after, most times it works out. Yes, occassionally a bit more or less, but most of us have some leeway built in to what we're after.

That said, I personally wouldn't book a hunt without have a few hundred extra on hand "just in case". What I have found really good is the extra costs involved are very reasonable. It is not like booking a guided hunt in other countries and having to pay large fees for guiding, lodging, food, etc, whether you connect or not.

What does get expensive quick are the Gold class animals. For the price of one of them you can do an entire PG hunt in Africa.

I am a hunter and extensively hunted in your country.
In fact i am going next monday for a 4 day wildboar driven hunt to Romania.
I find particularly correct to pay the boar by the cm , and when i see a outfiter offering a boar hunt without this system i rather stay away.
Europeans are used to this system , maybe Americans not , but i like it and i would recommend it.
Cheers

It's not all sliding scale and it only relates to trophy hunters.

It's how the europeans roll and that's good enough for me. It's not my backyard and I'd resent anybody telling me how to hunt here.

I agree with Dom - it is what it is. I don't think any free range hunting American likes it, but I think we can understand it. My main complaint is that in most places the scale is far from linear, it's more exponential. I'm the kind of hunter that wants a good quality representative animal. So, I want a gold class animal. Financially, I would like to shoot the smallest gold class possible, but of course the outfitter is just going to point me at an animal that is clearly in the gold range (I tell them I'm OK with high silver, but I think once they hear 'gold' they are going to make sure it is). That little difference can be quite costly. Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing for a perfectly linear scale, just one that is a little more reasonable as you get closer to the top.

Its good because you get what you pay for.

It's bad because you have to pay for what you get!

I like the idea of a huge trophy for the normal trophy fee. If you knock over something huge in Europe, it can get expensive very quickly!

Look at the increase, its not in equal increments. The rate is exponential. 1 euro per cm as long as it is under X cm. But if you go above Y cm, well then, its 40 euro per additional cm.

Some do guarantee that you will be within 10-15% of the estimated trophy fee, which is good because most of us are on a budget of some sort.

There is no more risk in breaking your budget in Europe than there is in Africa. I almost always go over budget when I hunt Africa.

Hey, don't hate the playa, hate the game.

I find in general the sliding scales for trophy fees bad and is the main reason for why I prefer to hunt other places than Europe.

The thought of paying per gram/cm/inch makes me sick.
I much rather hunt in an area with less trophy potential that don't have a trophy fee sliding scale.

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:
It is just the way the European market have evolved. If you see outfitters offer hunts in Europe with no sliding scales for the trophy fees, you know that it will be in an area that very seldom produces good throphys.

As long as hunters pay for this sliding scale, the good areas will continue to charge the sliding scale.

Not so true mate. We offered a flat rate on trophy stags, and our ground holds the current Scottish hill record....

I need to go over our documentation and make sure we keep the flat rate for this year too.

K

Well, I am not a trophy hunter, so I really don't like this system at all.

And as other have posted, that one reason I will not hunt in Europe.

Paying by the inch just does not appeal to me at all.

Yes, fully agreed, neither by inch, centimeter or gram trophy weight (which makes some weigh trophies soaking wet) ...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, I am not a trophy hunter, so I really don't like this system at all.

And as other have posted, that one reason I will not hunt in Europe.

Paying by the inch just does not appeal to me at all.

Most of the UK PH's don't charge by sliding scale method. I hate it personally!

Some will, but plenty who don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, I am not a trophy hunter, so I really don't like this system at all.

In a strange way, those of us who are NOT "trophy hunters" should probably appreciate the sliding scale MORE than others. I do not care whether a buck medals or not and, given that along with the aforementioned exponential pricing scale, it is really the guys who must have gold/silver medal trophies who are making the outfitters day, week , or season. They are therefore effectively subsidizing me as, without the sliding scale, we would all have to see our hunts priced somewhere in the middle of the price distribution!

One thing I do not care for however, is trying to find something "small enough" to shoot though I suppose there are worse problems in the hunting world. That said, I also think most outfitters (at least the good ones I have dealt with who do use a sliding scale) will not complain for the extra dough if the "non-medal" buck they told you to shoot accidentally squeaks into Bronze medal territory. That is my experience anyway. That flexibility would obviously change in the gold/silver realm however when we are talking about serious coin.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:
It is just the way the European market have evolved. If you see outfitters offer hunts in Europe with no sliding scales for the trophy fees, you know that it will be in an area that very seldom produces good throphys.

As long as hunters pay for this sliding scale, the good areas will continue to charge the sliding scale.

Not so true mate. We offered a flat rate on trophy stags, and our ground holds the current Scottish hill record....

I need to go over our documentation and make sure we keep the flat rate for this year too.

K

You are correct Sir!

In my post I forgott to mention Scotland. There You find areas without sliding scales and good heads, maybe a result of your enormous deer population? But look at the other areas in Europe on red deer. If you find an outfit that don't use a sliding scale you can be quite certain that the chance of a big head is slim. The roe bucks in Sweden are a perfect example. The estates that almost every year produce world class heads of course use the scale as long as there is someone prepared to pay for it.

I don't like this type of hunting myself but understand the function of the system. As long as someone pay...

Bad - I think at least for me it takes away from the hunt itself, worrying if your going to go broke shooting an inch or two more than you thought.

To each there own, just not for me.

I hate it.

However, I certainly do not fault an Outfitter for doing it. I have zero experience hunting Europe so therefore, I am speaking from the outside looking in.

I would love to hunt Europe one day. My main interest is the experience more than the trophy. Therefore, I am sure my opinion matters little.

I don't like it and I was born and raised there ( Czechoslovakia)
I can see two prices maybe, but cm's and kg's, sorry but no thanks no. You simply don't know even close what your final price will be.
Going over the budget some, maybe, but the Gold medal pricing is insane.
In the end, if majority of hunters will pay it, then that's what it is. If they don't , then market will find another way.
By the way, I would love to hunt for stag and boar in Romania in wilderness, but the prices down right scare the living shit out of me.

Thanks everyone for your help!! The true is as long as hunters will demand gold medal animals, sliding scale will remain.
And I have to admit, for the wild animals population, sliding scale is the easiest and safest method to maintain a strong and valuable population.
That does not mean you can not have a wonderful hunting trip in our country or other countries that have sliding scale for trophy fees.
My advice is to find 2,3 outfitters, give them a budget and see what they can offer you.

It is what it is. As long as hunters are ready to pay for this it will continue. There is some advantages in hunting in Europe. One is that you can find a lot of good offers on non trophy animals. The other is that you don´t need to tip the people involved in the hunt. The tipping system in Africa is keeping some Europeans from traveling to Africa.

I agree with Saeed. I'm heading to Africa in May for the tenth time. I've never hunted Europe and probably never will. The sliding scale is the main reason. I won't book a plains game hunt in Africa with anyone charging a sliding scale for Kudu either. I want to enjoy the hunt and obviously try to shoot the best animal I can without having to worry about the cost if a real trophy appears.

Great thread and here my two cents -

Not everything in Europe is by the cm, inch, medal or other forms of sliding scale. Certainly top quality heads / trophies more often are than not, but a large number of outfitters / estates / Revieren offer flat rates and if Diana is on your side you may take a great trophy for a lower price. But you need to spend time researching and 'shopping'.

Then there are a large number of driven and management hunts throughout Europe where you pay a flat rate for hinds, does, young buck, young boar and they can be great fun and reasonably priced.

I feel it forces the hunter to be more selective in his/her hunting and unlike Africa where you may see 10 plus species in a morning, in Europe a hunt if more often than not a number of outings or days after one specific species.

What concerns me more is that a number of farms in RSA and elsewhere in SSA are now starting to price based on length and size (kudu, warthog and impala being 3 that are often quoted with under / over prices). Hope that this remains isolated and does not catch on.

Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, I am not a trophy hunter, so I really don't like this system at all.

And as other have posted, that one reason I will not hunt in Europe.

Paying by the inch just does not appeal to me at all.

I do not like sliding scale either, Saeed. That´s why offer all my big game hunts in Portugal at closed packaged all inclusive.It can be closed or free range hunts. So you now can come hunt to Europe. You do not have further reason to not do it.

I had my prejudices against the sliding scale but I slightly changes my mind. If you have an experience guide who is responsible that you don't overshoot what you wanted to shoot, it is a workable system.

Especially for all people that honor the hunt over the trophy because you get a good hunting experience for an affordable price. So it is not that easy to say it is bad or good, it just depends on the condition and species. The system can provide both, affordable hunts and great trophy animals.

So yes, the system has downsides but it has a lot of advantages. But it provides a nice balance for different type of hunters.

I understand of good things of sliding scales trophys fees but same time i see lots of problem with it.

Special when i was younger and budget of hunting was smaller, scale system was nightmare. Its wasnt fun hunting in some area and you know that all big ones is just too expensive and you need only focus small one. Its not hunting anymore its feeling like try to find sales items from supermarket. Thank of god hunting in home in Finland wasnt like it.

And allways i dreaming of that king of forest and dream get of it. But many places i saw nightmare if i got it and get bill of it...

Now days its more easy and usually i looking area where biggest trophy payment is under of my personal limit. Then i can really hunt and dont need focus of price. But example with red deer you can easily find place where trophy payment grow 25000 euros or even more and those are areas where im not so interested to go. Ofcourse here is some people for who that money dont mean anything but for me its mean one more antlers on the wall or new car.... And car i really need.

So my opinion is that if all can do without scale its better. But then happend that people start shoot all males and good males dont have anymore possibilitis grow enough old. So it want be good eather.
But im dream some day in europe can hunt all of animals and dont need afraid of price of hunt. I had let too many great animals go only beacuse of price. Like i said its not hunt its something else.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerac:
I had my prejudices against the sliding scale but I slightly changes my mind. If you have an experience guide who is responsible that you don't overshoot what you wanted to shoot, it is a workable system.

Especially for all people that honor the hunt over the trophy because you get a good hunting experience for an affordable price. So it is not that easy to say it is bad or good, it just depends on the condition and species. The system can provide both, affordable hunts and great trophy animals.

So yes, the system has downsides but it has a lot of advantages. But it provides a nice balance for different type of hunters.

One thing that to me is a huge problem, is when you book at hunt for a specific trophy size, say a Red stag in Hungary, then your guide most of the time have total control of where the different stags with the different trophy sizes live and he takes you to shoot that specific stag.
I would not be surprised if each stag is given a name either.
This feels to me much more like shopping than hunting to me.

When they almost guarantee you to shoot the exact trophy size you want within 3 days of hunting, it feels very far from how I enjoy to hunt.

Reminds me of a pimp, hooker and a john trying to reach a deal in Las Vegas. The john can have whatever hooker he wants, it all depends how much money he has, there no effort on his part. I see the sliding scale for hunting the same way, it's almost like masterbating before having sex.

In a way the system supports shooting of old and mature animals and this is appreciated by me.

This is not just isolated to Europe. This is the norm in most of the US (especially Texas), Argentina and New Zealand. Most use some type of scale. I even see it on some of the Africa outfitters web pages, especially those with game ranches. I believe in the future the only way you will be able to avoid it will be to hunt your own land.

My major issue with it is when they place final responsibility on the shooter. I always ask the outfitters at DSC about this. For example, if I pay for an animal up to 150 and the guide and I find one and he agrees it is no more than 150 so I shoot it. We measure it and it scores 170. Who is wrong? The ones that say the shooter I walk away from. I keep information for the ones that tell me they will shake my hand and say congratulations.

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
In a way the system supports shooting of old and mature animals and this is appreciated by me.

The only thing this system does, is to put a higher monetary value on the most scoring animals.

If I want to shoot a 5 kilo Red Stag, I can shoot a 5 kilo Red Stag and pay for that.
If I want a 7 kilo Red Stag that is most likely older, I pay more for that and so on.

It has nothing to do with conservation, it has everything to do with earning as much money as possible from trophy collectors.

My Wife won't have trophies in the house. She thinks they are gruesome......but, she also thinks that the true measure of my hunting capability is the contents of the freezer.
She wouldn't want me to pay for hunting if I didn't bring some meat back.
So all my heads decorate the fruit trees in the Orchard.
Interestingly, outside, the antlers are a magnet for snails. This must be one of the routes that calcium is recycled in the wild ecosystem.