Most of you have probably read my post about wanting to go on my first pdog hunt this summer. If I can ever get my shoulder out of this sling, I plan on going. My question to you guys is what guns do I really need? I have sold most of my guns, but I am ready to retool with this hunt in mind. I'm laid up after shoulder surgery and have plenty of time to do research online. Here are my novice thoughts.

short range < 150 yds
Marlin 917v in 17 hmr with 4x12x40 swift premier
(haven't bought gun yet, but do have scope)

mid range 150 - 350 yds
Savage 12FVSS in 22-250 with elite 4200 4x16x40
(haven't bought gun yet, but do have brass, powder, and bullets, and scope)

long-range 350 +
I'm open to opinions on this one, it would be nice to have something in 25 or 6.5 mm if that wouldn't be an overkill

I may have this all wrong, maybe most of my shooting will be in the midrange and the 22-250 may heat up too fast, maybe should get a 223. Please give me any input, positive or negative.

Justin

i have a 223 Ackley improved that does not fall too far under what the 22-250 will do ballisticly. It does it with a lot less powder and recoil. Recoil isn't much on the 22-250 but when I was out in SD last year shooting them little PDs I got to where I would pick up the 223 even for the long shots (you would be suprised how far you can shoot with one) This year I have david white's comps on most of my guns that I will use. Mostly so I can see my own hits!!! I sure does add a lot to the enjoyment. But in answer to your question I would suggest that you consider the 223 or 223AI. Just my 2 cents worth.
Hogslayer

Well,I DO like your short range choice.I have taken Pdogs with my 17VS out to 225 yards(on purpose).

As to your longer range choice,I would go with a .223 myself.Colony varmints like PDs require a lot of shooting.The 22-250 is a great gun( I sure like mine),but I prefer the .223 for the lack of barrel heating and economy on PDs.

As to a 350 yard + caliber,I like 6mm rem or a 25-06 ...

Don't forget to bring along a good 22LR, and plenty of good ammo. P-dogs are not hard to kill and a 22LR will do the job just fine a lot farther out then you would expect. The little 22LR is cheap to shoot, low in report, almost no recoil ( you will see the hits) and teach you about what wind conditions will do to your bullet flight. Un-like the hot center fires you woun't shoot a barrel out in a few days on a dogtown. I always take one along and have not regreated it. The 22-250s, swifts, 243s and so will hit you in the wallet bothe in ammo and barrel life. The little 221, 222, and 223 are your best bet. The 22WRM and the 17HRM are will not get you the range of the 22 center fires and the get their butts kicked good in the wind!
My battery of fire arms is usually as follows; an accurated 22LR with a good scope, a 222 or 223 with a scope of up to 20X, and one long-range rifle for poops and giggles at the really long ranges when the conditions are right.I have also found a 22LR hand gun useful while walking to the next shooting spot for those close ones.

Justin, I like your choices just fine but would add some adjustments!!!
The 17HMR(you said under 150 yards) will sufice up to 200 yards if it is a quality rifle and you are a quality shooter!!!
The 22-250(you said up to 350 yards!!) will suffice up to the 500 yard mark(actually a helluva lot further bearing in mind what the last part of my former statement in your questin #1 was!!!!!)
My personal aresenal for the attack on the dogtowns will be the 17HMR(200 and under) 222MAG(200-400), .204(400-600) and the 6mmRem or the 25SAUM for anything else I see fit to shoot at!!! There are some clarifications needed here!! The 222MAG can probably suffice out to a bit further than offered for!! HOWEVER!!! The .204 is just so doggone repeatable in tests that I have to designate it somewhere in the lineup!!! (Kinda like a shortstop that is so superior in his defensive skills that you overlook his .200BA to keep him in the line-up!!! I'm actually expecting the 204 to pull off the 500 yard stuff with a high degree of regularity!!! But I just may use the 222MAG out to 500 and use the .204 for a bit more!!! But then again, the 6BR and 7BR XP-100's will be along to provide proven backup to the rifles!!! GHD

A Rem 700 in 223 would be perfect. Put a nice trigger in it, say a Jewell. And a nice piece of glass, maybe a Leupold 6.5-20. You would have a very versatile rifle. And if the gun doesn't shoot, screw a Hart barrel on it. Low recoil and low impulse. The bigger stuff gives me a headache when your shooting 400-500 rds a day.

James

lets see, what do I take PD shooting. well if the wind isn't to bad theres by kinber 17rem, or my martini 17 ackley bee, or maybe my lowall 17HMR, but then it might be a bit breezy, so mayby my #1 204, or my don allen sako 222, or the martini 222 or the martin1 218 mashburn bee, or my old sako 222mag or the kinber 223 is fun, and just in case thee it a bunch around the hole the JP 223 mouse gun, then again if something is further away there are the 3 or 4 22/250's or maybe one of the swifts, or if its really far away there is this pretty browning 78 rebarreled with a hart 8" twist in 22250AI that shoots those 80 grain bullets like a streched rubber band, but then again the wind may come up so a 6 mm is really needed,maybe the nice #1 in 250/6mm improved, or the 243, or maybe even the FN HB 243 if there are large groups again. Then if we really see some far away, thee's the 2506 or maybe even the 300 mag. but in the early morning before the sun makes to much mirage, the 50BMG comes out for the 2000 yard shot. good grief, now that you make me think about it I must need a new PD gun before summer.

If you hand load, I would suggest a 10/22, with a high capacity magazine and low powered scope, for shots of 10 to 50 yds.

I carry both a 223, and a 22.250 that I shoot off of the hood of the truck. A 22.250 can be down loaded to 223 velocities easier than a 223 can be loaded up to 22.250 specs. However, 223 brass, surplus military via Cabelas ( 1000 for $35.000 is to be a consideration.

I myself can't make those decisions. I have four rifles setting on the hood of my truck when I shoot sage rats or prairie dogs. I use blue dot shot gun powder for the 223s, which take a long time to heat up and a short time to cool down. I shoot 25 shots out of one, and then let it cool while I use the other one. This takes into the 50 to 250 yd rats. Over 250, the 22/250 is zeroed for 250 to 400 yds.
There is more than enough to shoot at those distances, so I don't mess with the 500 yds way out there ones. I am concerned of what my bullet might potential hit if I miss way out there. But that is just me.

The 10/22 with the high capacity mag and the low power shotgun scope on it is for those little ones that try to sneak by from 10 to 50 yds in front of the truck.

With these available I have not had to wait for some barrels to cool down.

Occasionally I will also use a 243 with 55 or 60 grain bullets, in place of the 22.250. Those take into account any target from 200 to 400 yds quite nicely.

For bullets I mainly use hollow points or explosive like Hornady's SXSPs, or Ballistic tips. YOU will want something that makes them explode. Once you have done it, you will see how addictive it can become.

Cheers
seafire

Just about can't go wrong with a decent .223 backed up with a 22-250. With that said I use .221 Fireball carbine, 22-250 Savage setup and usually a 6mm. I did just get a .204 Ruger that will get its chance in a few weeks.

For inside 400 yds. you really don't need a scope with more than 16x...I like 12x but thats just me.

Justin B,

Just a few thoughts to add to the excellent ones given. When I “put together†a dedicated pd rifle my first concern is whether you will be able to see your hits (or misses). Two things are involved here. One is the fun factor. Watching the carnage “unfold†with a successful hit. Blowing up pds is not fun if you can’t see the action. Sure you can turn down the scope magnification but then you can run into another problem. And that is seeing where you are hitting when you miss, either do to unknown range or wind. The most accurate pd shooters are the ones able to most accurately estimate distance and wind drift. These two factors cannot be corrected if you can’t see where you are hitting.

This forces you to seriously calculate recoil and gun weight. Case in point. My brother got a Savage 12FVSS, 22-250 with the plastic stock and 4-12 scope. Shooting 55 gr. pills you could not see the hits unless you really held onto the gun, and that got old real quick. So we are putting a wood stock on it that we can load up with lead to tame the thing down. Would this modification need to be made if it was a .223 or a .204?? Very likely not. I am not trying to talk you out of a 22-250. Just consider what you may have to do to get the thing to stay on the bags.

Also the type of pd hunting a person has experienced has a lot to do with what they recommend. Many of the places I used to hunt in Nodak and Sodak were so heavily shot a 22-250 was the smallest you would use. (pre .204) Our weapons of choice for those towns were custom, heavy barreled 25s, 7mms and 300 winmags. On towns that don’t have much pressure your choice of calibers will be
different.

It all depends on your pocket book, but I would concentrate my efforts on getting two guns that shoot well. One of them a heavy barrel .223 and the other a heavy barrel 22-250 or a .204 although the jury is still out on the life of a .204 barrel.

When you decide on a rifle, ask the guys here what the recoil is like. I would trust their opinion.

Jim

Thanks for the input. I am going to order the 17hmr (want one anyway) and a fvss 22-250 for starters. I plan on using mild to med loads in the 22-250 and add some weight to the synthetic stock. I plan on working on those two and look for a 223 or 222. I really have no need for a 223 around here, so I might buy a nice used one and resell after the hunt if I don't fall in love with it

Well..... If you can get a 1/9 twist barrel for your 22-250 you can use 75 gr. A-Max bullets and really stretch your range out well beyond 350 yards.

On the other end of the spectrum, why not develop a nice short range load for your 22-250? I've had great success with the Hornady 45 gr. 224 Hornet bullet coupled with 17gr. of H4227. It zips along at about 3000 fPS, expands violently, but doesn't heat up a barrel like the long range loads will. It's also important to note that a double charge won't fit into a case without you noticing.

A good .204 seems to be the way to go 40 grain v-max should be an all round pd killer.

Justin B,

I had problems with weighting down my brothers 22-250 FVSS. I filled the void in the butt stock with lead shot, pressed a piece of foam insulation over the top so it wouldn't move around, and the groups opened up to over an inch. I took the lead out, and the groups went back to the .3s. I do a fare amount of stock work and my opinion is the plastic stock is not rigid enough and is twisting (torqueing) in front of the heavier butt stock.

Of course this is just one gun, and I wish I could find another one to try it on. But there is no doubt, that this one is doing it. Also the forearm of the fvss is too narrow for my liking.

I would highly recommend the BVSS. You can bed the action if you want, trying to do this with the plastic stock will give you issues. Wide forearm and more mass to begin with. You can also "hog" out the forearm and butt stock and fill with lead if you need to.

Once again, this is just my experience. Now if we could get someone to try it on their FVSS and report, I would be interested in the findings. Hey guys, its a reason to shoot in the name of SCIENCE. (If anyone is interested we could start a new thread)

Jim

I think you are getting some good advice here....especially the think about what you can see when you shoot comment.

I used to travel with several rifles when out including a 308 for the really long shots. But, my experiences forced me to change for two reasons:

First, I found I enjoy seeing where the bullets land and that I in fact needed to see where they landed for follow up shots and corrections since my "spotters" too frequenlty weren't up to the task.

Secondly, I found that me and my partners ended up walking around quite a bit as we shot in a day.

THese two things translated into me needing a single rifle. I went with a heavy barreled ar-15 in 223 topped with zeiss glass with target turrets and rangefinding reticle and capped with lens caps that contain my range dopping info.

With this rig I am mobile and can consistantly make shots from 50 to 450 yards--which covers 98% of the shots I'd like to take where we hunt. I do have to pass on the other two percent, however. I can also pretty reliably range targets and make adjustments visually through my scope and the recoil is low and ammo cheap--we shoot upto 500 rounds a day.

Think about what you are really going to do when out and about and equip accordingly.

Justin B, sounds like you have gotten some good advice on rifles for dogging, hope you enjoy it as much as I do. I would suggest the 40gr Barnes varminator bullets in the 22-250, very low recoil and very explosive on dogs. For a long range rifle I use a Remington 700 sendero chambered in 25-06.

I would suggest a good 22lr handgun preferably a Marvel on a quality 1911,if you can shoot a hand gun at all and then work at killing,p-dogs and gophers you will be astounded what you can do w/one of these.w/regards

Thanks for the information guys. I really hope to be able to go on a good hunt this year. I ordered a 22-250 and 17hmr today. After I get these two rifles ironed out, I will probably end-up getting a heavy-barreled 25-06, been wanting one anyway.

I'm thinking I might use the 50 v-max or 52 gr matchkings in the 22-250. I will probably use a very mild load to keep recoil and barrel heating to minimum. I know a 223 is good medicine but I really don't need one around here. 22-250 will do all the coyote killing I need. I may end-up getting a 223 anyway just for some range work. Has anyone got any experience will loading the 22-250 down to close to 223 levels?

As for the 25-06, looking at the v-maxes out of it as well. Will also double as a back-up deer rifle with accubonds or tsx.

Almost forgot, thanks for the handgun tip, would have never thought about that one. I've got a browning buckmark silloute model that will plain shoot. I will have to take it along, hope to get some good glass for it first.

For high volume accurate medium velocity loads in a 22-250 you can just about always count on H380 behind a 50 vmax. Find a load that gets around 3600 fps....good place to start and they measure out very well.

A couple of comments on your choices. If you're talkibg prairie dogs you're talking about hunting on rolling plains mostly, and that can be quite windy. I don't know that the 17hmr is up to that except under ideal conditions. Another caliber you mentioned was the .22-250. That's my favorite caliber, but if you're going where the action is hot and heavy
involving a lot of shots I hope you have an excellent barrel because you don't have to heat a .22-250 to very much for it to begin to wash out at those velocities. I honestly think a .223 might be better. Anyway, I wish you well on your hunt. It's easy to tell you're really primed for it. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Try the small 6mm's, in between your 17 and the 22-250. I shot a 6mm TCU along side a .222 Mag. for 2 seasons. With the 55-60 gr bullets, there just seemed to be more viewable carnage. Low recoil, low barrel heat, good wind resistance. My shooting buddy bought it on the spot after pulling the trigger twice. Also try 6x45, 6x47, 6PPC.

I think you guys talked me into it, I'll have to get a 223 before I go. It may have to be next year, but I would rather wait and have everything I need before I go. Anybody ever used an encore handgun in a 223 for pdogs?

I find it somewhat incredible that no one has suggested my favorite method, spot and stalking with a Hawken. It is quite the sight when a PD meets up with a .495RB. Of course I also like to use my 308 Snip-uhh bench rest rifle for the longer shots. derf

Justin B, I use an Encore with the 15 inch barrels in 22-250 and 204. Both barrels work wonderfully. I have it topped with a burris 3x9EER scope and have both barrels setup with a harris bipod. It is a lot of fun to take to a dog town as well as to the range, sure get a lot of guys grumbling about a pistol shooting better than their rifle The 223 should be no different.

Justin: I've kept up with both of your posts on p-dog shooting with interest. I've also noticed that you conciously disregarded the advice of the .223 Remington continually saying you didn't need one around here (central Ark. I assume) until just recently. One poster hit dirctly on it that with as many shots that can be taken in a decent p-dog town a .22/250 is going to get a darned hot barrel in short order and if you care about your firearm you will need to have a decent cooling-off period which is going to reduce your shooting. This is not as much of a problem with a .223. Also, another poster talked of wind and where ole mr. p-dog lives, believe me, it is windy. Here in New Mexico, the only time the wind stops blowing is to change directions. At 300 yards, I don't care if you are shooting a .223 or a .22/250, a 50 grain slug or 55 grain slug is going to drift, and drift plenty in the wind. I shoot a .223 Remington in a CZ 527 Lux. That thing is a half-inch rifle and is topped with a cheap glass, the Simmons 6.5x20-50 whitetail classic scope. The scope is okay except it looks like a damned television set sitting atop that petite rifle. Got less than $500 invested in it and am happy as a pig in the slop shop. Longest shot with it was a measured, and witnessed 568 yards and the shot even shocked me, as well as the p-dog I hit. Shooting a 50 grain Hornady V-Max at 3,150 fps, I feel that I almost have to hold the next county over to make a shot on a p-dog on a windy day. I also use the CZ 527 for coyotes and bobcats. Believe me, with the .22/250, the cost of ammunition, shoulder wear after so many shots, and having to dope the wind as well, you'll find youself happy with a .223. It doesn't cost as much to shoot, it reaches out further than most sane people want to shoot p-dogs (a 12-inch tall dog at 300 or 350 yards is a tiny, tiny little target), and after a day of shooting you won't have to ice down your shoulder. What else to carry along? Well, a good pair of nocs, a spotting scope, a portable shooting bench with sandbag rests, some good sandwiches and plenty of cold water. I use sandbag rests off the tailgate of my S-1- pickup truck and it seems to work okay. I used to shoot p-dogs up in Bonita Canyon in the Zuni Mountains near where I live, but I posted it too much on this and other internet forums and now all the towns are pretty well shot out. It was on United States Forest Service Land. There's a lot of BLM land with p-dogs on it too. Going on a p-dog shoot is a lot of fun and you will be getting rid of a nasty little pest. Remember to kill them with the first shot, because p-dogs sometimes will charge when wounded! Have fun ... Tom Purdom

I'll watch out for those charging pdogs

I will get me a 223 before I go pdogging, never can have too many guns. I just have to pace myself a little, can't bring in too many guns at once or the wife will notice

I just love the 22-250 and already had everything including glass for it, so I decided to get one. I think I will work the savage fvss over before deciding on what to get in a 223. I'm going to a gun show in Feb to see if I can get a deal on a 223, but usually the shows around here are a joke with overpriced guns.

One question, how is the 223 cheaper to shoot? Same bullets, primers, etc as a 22-250, just a less powder. I know that there is a lot of bulk and surplus ammo around, but I like rolling my own.

you'll need two types of guns.
1. Window gun.......yes this is for shooting out the window and using an owl ear sand bag over the mirror. A 3-12 X scope on a 20" barreled .223 is good for this as it's easily maneuvered in the cab of the truck. Good substitutes include the .204, .17 Rem, the .222 and the .222 Mag.

2. Bench gun.....as it implies this is for long range shooting from a bench you set up on the dog town. Ranges usually 200 yards to Way-out-there. This (these) gun(s) should be heavier and possibly with longer barrels and the best chamberings are .22-250, .243, .25-06 and all the way to .50BMG if you wish.