I've been shooting prairie dogs with a 17HMR using CCI V-Max 17 grain bullets. I am not impressed with them in that I have way too many crawl offs and cripples and I don't like that. Most of my shots are around 100 yard and I'm using a very accurate and well scoped Savage 93R17TR that is suppressed. This ammunition was selected as it was the most accurate when I first set the rifle up. But on prairie dogs I think the problem is lack of expansion as I get a lot of pass through hits that don't do much damage.

So now I am going back to range testing of different ammo not the V-Max. Anybody have any field experience using 17HMR ammo that seems to be more 'explosive'?

P.S. I'm 10-4 that I shouldn't expect 220 Swift results with a .17HMR, but I have to find something better than the V-Max

I’ve shot ground squirrels with .17HMRs mainly using CCI and Hornady .17 grain bullets. Many have crawled off to disappear down their holes and many of those have been hard-hit: I’ve seen animals with their entire chest/abdomen missing crawl 3 - 4 feet and disappear underground. Kind of like that final scene in the old movie Terminator where the top half of the robot is pulling itself forward with its hands.

A friend and I have shot and hit upwards of 100 GS each in a morning, yet we find precious few bodies when we walk the field. That’s true for us even if we use CF rifles.

Damned if I know how they do it.

I've used CCI (std & A17), Winchester, and Hornady on ground squirrels extensively. Both the 17 and 20gr offerings. They all work pretty much the same, with results like your's and BL's. The way to get more "explosive" from the light 17cal bullets is to up the velocity. The 17 Hornet fills the bill quite nicely.

I tried a 17HMR one season of PD shooting and sold it. Far too many walk offs.

The 17 gr V-Max at 2550 fps will kill squirrels and prairie dog's, but not with authority like a centerfire. If you want dead right there, launching and parts flying you got to go bigger.
Simple as that. Still my choice for close range pups, they are a bit more fragile and don't take as much velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Gale Johnson:
The 17 gr. V-Max at 2550 fps will kill squirrels and prairie dog's, but not with authority like a centerfire. If you want dead right there, launching and parts flying you got to go bigger.
Simple as that. Still my choice for close range pups, they are a bit more fragile and don't take as much velocity.

That's been my experience with ground squirrels. I have gotten chunks and flying bodies, but at ranges < 75 yards with my .17HMR. For more of that at longer ranges, I turn to a .223, .225 or .243.

In passing, in their ability to cling to life and continue moving when hit hard with a .17HMR, ground squirrels (and I assume PDs) may not be much different from larger game shot with heavier calibers. I've read reports of deer chest—shot with an explosive bullet that ran 40 — 100 yards even when the lungs and heart were virtually turned to mush.

I've got several other suitable centerfires that I use on a rotating weekly basis on PD's; .222, 223, 6x45, 243, and 308's (with 125 grain bullet). I generally reach for the .222 most often as it's a personal favorite.

That said, I'm going to try some CCI 'TNT' ammo and some other hollow point stuff to see if I get a bit more terminal effect than the V-Max.

i doubt that you will get what you are looking for. the 17 hornet - .07 for midsouth bullet, .03 primer and a couple cents worth of powder - 1/2 the pricetag of the hmr ammo and get results

Thanks Butchloc, you are the third person that has recommended various versions of the .17 Hornet to me. The .17 HMR just doesn't have enough horsepower to get the job done consistently.

That might be a winter 'boat' project. ('break-out-another-thousand')

You should be able to find a CZ 527 in 17 Hornet for less than $700. I bought one this spring and killed a boat load of rats with it this year.

Okay. I don't want to hijack this thread, but my interest is peaked and the idea of a .17 Hornet is, well, tempting me towards something I'm afraid to consider. As in, like, another rifle, another set of dies, a new scope, etc.

In comparison to the .17HMR, which, for arguments sake, lets say is okay for ground squirrels and PDs inside 75 yards. How much additional range would a .17 Hornet give me?

I LOVE the "chunk factor" when GSs are hit and I'd like to know, from someone who knows, how the .17 Hornet might compare to, for example, a .223 at 150 yards.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, and doubly sorry if I'm hijacking the thread. But I'm weak and can't not ask.

B.L., I don't mind the conversation (about the 17 Hornet) at all. I'm thinking the same thing or a .20 Vartarg.

I did go to the range today and tested some 17 HMR HP ammo. Best accuracy at 100 yards was with CCI 17 gr 'TNT' hollowpoints and Hornady 20 gr XTP hollowpoints.

Ran the test loads over a chronograph:

CCI TNT 17 gr: 2799 avg
CCI A17 17 gr: 2755
FED TNT 17 gr: 2653

Horn XTP 20 gr: 2554 avg
Win HP 20 gr: 2453

The CCI A17 ammo is described as 'Varmint Tip' but it looks like an A-Max to me. I was surprised at it's velocity as I thought it was being touted as higher velocity.

Worst accuracy was with the Winchester 20 grain.

I'll get to the field within a week or two to see if I can detect any improvement in effect on prairie dogs. I'm not getting my hopes up.

Kills @ 150 with the Hornet are impressive. Not quite as chunky as a 223 or 222, but still nice. For spectacular chunk I like the 204.

The 17 FB and 17 Mach 4 are particularly effective and sometimes have great launching, parts scattering and terminal effect. Depending on the size of varmint, they can be excellent, especially with 25 gr bullet's. My FB just didn't shoot them that well, haven't tried them in the Mach 4. Speed kills, on fragile little vermin.

quote:

Originally posted by Gale Johnson:

Speed kills, on fragile little vermin.

Especially when you're using very frangible bullets.

Chunkage happens, too!

You guys are making my life difficult . . . and that's a good thing.

Just returned from a week of prairie dog shooting in South Eastern Utah. I had a 22 mag and 17 HMR but used my 223 with 40 gr. V-Max bullets exclusively. My buddy used a 243 with 58 gr. bullets. We created a lot of flying dogs. The crows, hawks, and eagles were following us. Our rancher/farmer friends were quite pleased with the results!!!

When the wind is low in the morning the 17HMR is great since you can keep moving up on the prairie dogs. When the centerfire rifles come out, the distances increase because they get spooked. I like my 220 Swift with 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips for that time and then if I need a little more I get the 6mm-06 Ackley out. You always have to change over to centerfire when the wind picks up.

Went out today and tried out the Hornady 17 HMR 'TNT' hollow-point 17 grain bullets. I will give the ammo a qualified 'thumbs up' for being more effective on prairie dogs than the V-Max loading. I got a lot more DRT and saw a lot more red stuff. I say 'qualified' because I only shot about two dozen p-dogs with the TNT loads and feel it needs more field use before making a for sure determination.

Spent most of the day behind my 6x45 and 69 grain Berger varmint bullets. That combo is a serious prairie dog whacker.

Did have one dilemma today. (see photo below). Sat there waiting for somebody to move, and finally I had to!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
[ ... ]
Spent most of the day behind my 6x45 and 69 grain Berger varmint bullets. That combo is a serious prairie dog whacker.

Glad to hear that. I've found that the 69 Berger is wickedly accurate in my .243 LRP and I'm planning to use it for ground squirrels next year.

Oh . . . and Craigster . . . I'm heading towards a 204 (likely a Savage FCV). I'm weak, and, if I end up with one, I'll blame you!

This is interesting, I've shot coyotes out past 200 yards with the Hornady 17 grain loads and they were DRT. Even rolled one off the side of a dead cow.

My Savage 93R17 especially likes that load.

I wonder what the "sheer numbers" factor plays in perceptions of whether or not calibers are adequate or not.

If you were to shoot, say 300 deer in a day with a .270 at 150 yards or so, with most hits being killing shots, would we see that cohort of deer acting like the same number of ground squirrels hit in the same killing regions with lesser calibers (like .17 HMR) at 125 yards?

Are our perceptions of the hardiness of animals or the adequacy of a given caliber for instant kills affected by the sheer number of animals we shoot at any given session?

Does that question make sense?

Parenthetically, head shots can result in lots of spasmodic animal activity even though the animal is stone-cold dead. This video shows how that works.

Where are you hitting the p-dogs with the V-Max?

I've shot a lot of them with the V-Max and get plenty of flippage and chunkage.

Hint: Hit them where the liquids are and you'll get better results.

George

I'm happy to hit middle of what is presented to me...'center mass'. I wish I had the ability to routinely head shoot P-D's at 100 yards.

The V-Max loads indeed killed them, some DRT, but it seemed to me I was getting a lot of floppers/crawlers. And I qualify that by saying I come to that observation after only shooting 60 or 70 (?) with the 17HMR. I have several other more capable P-D rifles and try to take two with me when I go out. I do like shooting the 17HMR as it's very accurate at it's ranges and easy/fun to shoot.

I've had one field outing with the Hornady TNT loads and so far (~20+ PD's), I seem to get more DRT and red stuff.

Go figure.

My lefty Savage 93 .17HMR doesn't shoot the TNTs anywhere near well enough for me to bother taking them into the field. The V-Maxes perform well at the bench and in the field.

Every gun is an individual.

George

I shoot an Anschutz 1517 (a surprise gift from my teenaged bride on the occasion of our 50th wedding anniversary) and it seems to shoot everything I feed it very well, if not great. For the distances I shoot GSs, "very well" is perfect!

If the Craigster is still following this thread, I want to condemn you in the very strongest of terms: I'm buying a .204, because I am weak and susceptible to suggestion, and . . . you made me do it! I am NOT a free agent!

George, I too shoot a lefty Savage 93 in .17HMR and have been from only a year or two after they came out. Two of my best friends also shoot the 93s, but are maledicted to right hand rifles.
We too have found the Hornady 17gr rounds as more accurate and have better terminal performance than anything else.
I Live within 35 miles of two good prairie dog towns. Counting with golf clickers, we often kill 50 each in a short day of shooting. I was surprised by the number of crawl-offs mentioned above! Most of our shots are from 50yds to 150yds. I get brave and shoot at some dogs out to 200yds. Often we will go out to see the damage to the dogs. Adequate.

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
I shoot an Anschutz 1517 (a surprise gift from my teenaged bride on the occasion of our 50th wedding anniversary) and it seems to shoot everything I feed it very well, if not great. For the distances I shoot GSs, "very well" is perfect!

If the Craigster is still following this thread, I want to condemn you in the very strongest of terms: I'm buying a .204, because I am weak and susceptible to suggestion, and . . . you made me do it! I am NOT a free agent!

You'll thank me.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
I shoot an Anschutz 1517 (a surprise gift from my teenaged bride on the occasion of our 50th wedding anniversary) and it seems to shoot everything I feed it very well, if not great. For the distances I shoot GSs, "very well" is perfect!

If the Craigster is still following this thread, I want to condemn you in the very strongest of terms: I'm buying a .204, because I am weak and susceptible to suggestion, and . . . you made me do it! I am NOT a free agent!

You'll thank me.

Okay . . . tha.. th . . . than . . . thank you. (Boy was that tough . . . )

So I threw together 4 loads and shot them @100 yards today.

I used 2 shots of the first load to get my shots more or less where I wanted them on the paper, and the remaining 3 shot into .43 in.

Then I shot three 5 shot groups: one was .7 in, one .6 and one didn't shoot well (1.04).

BUT! Will they kill (ground squirrels)?

I mean, really, how much damage to a 12 oz ground squirrel can a measly 32 grain bullet do if its muzzle velocity is only 3850 fps?

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
I shoot an Anschutz 1517 (a surprise gift from my teenaged bride on the occasion of our 50th wedding anniversary) and it seems to shoot everything I feed it very well, if not great. For the distances I shoot GSs, "very well" is perfect!

If the Craigster is still following this thread, I want to condemn you in the very strongest of terms: I'm buying a .204, because I am weak and susceptible to suggestion, and . . . you made me do it! I am NOT a free agent!

You'll thank me.

Okay . . . tha.. th . . . than . . . thank you. (Boy was that tough . . . )

So I threw together 4 loads and shot them @100 yards today.

I used 2 shots of the first load to get my shots more or less where I wanted them on the paper, and the remaining 3 shot into .43 in.

Then I shot three 5 shot groups: one was .7 in, one .6 and one didn't shoot well (1.04).

BUT! Will they kill (ground squirrels)?

I mean, really, how much damage to a 12 oz ground squirrel can a measly 32 grain bullet do if its muzzle velocity is only 3850 fps?

Not as much as a 40 grainer goin' the same speed.

I shot 39 Blitzking's in my Tac 20 at close to that speed and they made a god awful thump on prairie dog's at long distances.

Another vote for Hornady 17 grainers. They kill well and quickly for me.

As far as stopping p dogs cold is concerned, using a 40 grain V Max in my long barreled 223 at only 200 yards, I've blown one in two elevating it to three feet in the air, had it land and the front half made its way about 4' and back into the beginning of the burrow. Just like everything shot, depends on where the bullet is placed.

Just use head shots! I did with a 22lr on about 100 gophers in July. The sound of the impact on the head is distinctive. Then nothing happens for about 5 seconds. Then all hell breaks loose until the gopher dies. None of them make it back to the hole. I also use 40 gr v max in a 22ppc and cannot believe the accuracy for an in expensive bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by WY: As far as stopping p dogs cold is concerned, using a 40 grain V Max in my long barreled 223 at only 200 yards, I've blown one in two elevating it to three feet in the air, had it land and the front half made its way about 4' and back into the beginning of the burrow. Just like everything shot, depends on where the bullet is placed.

Me too, but with Ground Squirrels. It's like that scene in the first Terminator movie where the terminator's bottom half has been eliminated and he's pulling himself along by his hands.

I'm always amazed at how few bodies we find when we search a field after shooting hundreds of the little beasts.

And I wonder: If you were to shoot that many deer in one days shoot, with, say, a .338 WM, how many of them would be DRT? I'd bet that a bunch would find a way to move 30 - 100 yards away even after a killing shot.

In fact many animals that have been brain-shot will thrash around doing flip-flops, running-in-place and waving their flags. This is because there are lots of "motor programs" in the spinal cord that can function without input from the brain itself. So movement does NOT necessarily indicate an animal is writhing with pain because those animals cannot feel pain, sans brain.

It's pretty amazing thing.

Since my last post I've done a couple days of 'field trips' with the .17 HMR as the secondary/back-up prairie dog whacking rifle. Back-up to the other various primary rifles I include; 223 and 6x45 being the most prominent, both of which are 1/2" 100 yard shooters and are reliable out to 300 yards. We don't have vast fields of prairie dog towns like they have in the plains states I've experienced in the past (like Eastern Wyoming). We go out and whack 50 or 60 P-Ds in little patches in our desert.

All that explained, here is what I've observed:

The .17 HMR with a suppressor in an accurate set-up and is a great P-D rifle under 100 yards. Preferably under 75 yards. Under 75 yards it will blow chunks and red stuff if you hit center mass. Great for driving along the two- tracks and whacking the singles you see. You can hit stuff at longer ranges with it (out to 150) but will get a lot of floppers and crawlers unless you hit something very vital.

In MY rifle, the CCI 17 grain V-Max loads shot the best when I first set the rifle up and load tested. Got some under 1" groups at 100 yards. But in the field after shooting several dozen P-D's I got a lot of crawlers and floppers (see initial post). So I tired some other loadings, in particular the 17 grain 'TNT' hollow point CCI loads. I got comparable groups, or at least good enough. Certainly better than the other ammo I tried that day. I've since shot or watched shot over 100 P-D's being shot. I THINK that I get better expansion with the hollow point TNT's. Some are DRT, most fall over dead with a few twitches. To be fair, some require 3 very telling shots with chunks and red stuff!

So that is what I'm gong to continue to use; 17 grain CCI TNT. The .17 HMR is NOT the end all-be all of the P-D shooting world, but it has it's application.

Your mileage may vary.

your not finding them because the other squirrels and P-dogs are eating them.

I have shot G-squirrels/Dogs out from their holes a way's then waited for the others to come out to eat them.
then shot them too.
I have got 4-5 right in a nice little pile.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
your not finding them because the other squirrels and P-dogs are eating them.

I have shot G-squirrels/Dogs out from their holes a way's then waited for the others to come out to eat them.
then shot them too.
I have got 4-5 right in a nice little pile.

Yup! I once got a twofer, but that was a consolation prize. There were 3 eating one I'd just shot, and if I'd been a little more on target I'd have nailed all of 'em. (My shooting buddy has a fourfer . . . I saw it).

And again . . . if you see a flopper, chances are you hit its head even if you didn't intend to.

But I've also seen GSs shot in half whose forequarters drag themselves to a burrow. So there's another reason you don't see them.

I never thought Id see the day that my advise would be use enough gun ON PRAIRIE DOGS for goodness sake!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I never thought Id see the day that my advise would be use enough gun ON PRAIRIE DOGS for goodness sake!

LOL!

Yep! I love to take my .17HMR out and use it at ridiculous ranges, but my two .223s using 40gr Hornadys or Noslers certainly whack the pds better...Then there is the .22BR for really good launching effect.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I never thought Id see the day that my advise would be use enough gun ON PRAIRIE DOGS for goodness sake!

I once popped a good sized sage rat with a 375 H&H at about 75yds. No chuncks, pieces or parts, just fell over dead. Pretty much the same effect as a 22RF solid, just a bigger hole.