What sort of groups are you guys getting from your varmint rigs at 100yds? What is an acceptable group size out of your rifles? And at what point do you decide that the groups are good enough to stop tinkering with them?

I'm just in the process of load developement for my 22-250 Savage LRPV and I can't decide how good is good enough. These are some of the groups I'm getting while playing with the seating depth.

This target shows loads using the 52gr Berger Match bullet and 36.0gr IMR 4064. I pulled the first shot low and right, that's the flier on the top left target.


This target is with the 50gr Hornady V-Max with the same powder charge.

It's getting hard to judge groups when they are only a few .01's apart from each other. My goal was to get a load that could average in the .2's. But it looks like that won't be very hard. Is it unreasonable to try for an average group in the .1's?

What you have there are all very good groups. Nothing to appologize for, in the least. For 300+ yd PD shooting, you have a winner.

Those are fine groups.. but ya know.. this summer, I had a new barrel on a rifle that wasn't grouping that well by my standards....

however, after taking it out in the field, and zapping sage rats pretty consistently at 250 yds with it... I assumed it was more than accurate enough....

it isn't a benchrester by any stretch of the imagination.. but it sure is plenty for its intended purpose....

those are FANTASTIC 100yd groups! how does it group at 200? 300?

To me you have to lay the ground work and judgement of just what is the purpose of the rifle. If you are hunting I would think anything in the .3 to .4 range would be right where you need to be. If your paper punching then you are competing against yourself and your own values. If you are in true competition then you need to be better than the next individual.

I'd say your "Good to Go"!!! Yes, I think groups in the 0.1's for a prairie rig is unreasonable and costly!

Thanks for the replies. I'm more than happy with the groups I'm getting now. Especially since these were shot off a portable shooting rest, that isn't all that stable, while still developing handloads.

As soon as the local range clears out all the once a year marksmen that swarm in for "hunter sight in" I'll try some 200 yard shooting off a good solid bench. I just envision years of tinkering with all the load combinations in search of some unrealistic group size.

Keep the responses coming. I'm curious what kind of groups other people are getting. Thanks.

For a varmint rig I prefer 5-shot groups. Then I'll shoot 10 of them and plot them one over the other to see how consistent my point of impact is. I have put nearly a thousand rounds through a Cooper 22-250 into 5 and 10 shot groups to see how "accurate" it is both in average group size and POI. As Cooper claims, the rifle averages 1/2" over the long haul. Your groups look great and I would expect that this is going to be a very accurate and consistent rifle for you. In a heavier varmint type rifle I plan to use for long range, beyond 300 yards, I want to see 1/2 MOA. That said, I have a Kimber Montana in .243 that consistently groups 5/8". I have used that rifle on Marmots out to 566 yards. It took 4 powders, 4 bullets, a few hundred shots, and a little help from AR members on powder selection to finally find that load.

Andy,

You have some excellent groups there. The ones down in the .2's are about as good as it gets with a 22-250.
I decided that three shot groups are good enough so as to save barrel life. It's been established that 5 shot groups are 1.33 times larger than three shot groups. So, rather than shooting all five shots, I just multiply my three shot groups by 1.33 and save the extra two shots per group.

Don

I tend to be much more of a pd shooter than a group shooter. Shooting paper bores me but shooting pds does not. Once i have a load that I can count on for 400 yd. shots time after time all weekend then I leave well enough alone. I usually have a whole lot more trouble at long shots with the wind than I ever had with loads/rifles.

Just my thoughts but l like 4 shot group's,with 4 shot group's you can test a full
two grain load change with one box of 20 rounds...Four 5 shot groups will tell you
what you and your gun can do.but for working up loads l like 4 shot's,it works for
me....lt will for you....
Jon D.

When I'm doing load developement, I typically shoot 3 shot groups to save time and components. When a load shows promise, I go back and shoot a few either 4 or 5 shot groups.

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
To me you have to lay the ground work and judgement of just what is the purpose of the rifle. If you are hunting I would think anything in the .3 to .4 range would be right where you need to be. If your paper punching then you are competing against yourself and your own values. If you are in true competition then you need to be better than the next individual.

That is it my friend, exactly.

There are three or four OUTSTANDING groups there. Heck, the WORST one is adequate for doggin.

true magic starts with consistent 5-shot groups under one-inch at three hundred yards.

JMHO, and what I get from any that stay at my house very long.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost

I have a .223 that has shot one .46" 5 shot group at 100 yards.
I have a .257RAI that has shot on .45" 5 shot group at 100 meters.


Then there are my other dozens of rifles that are not as good.

My range does not open until noon, and by then there is always at wind there.
My good groups were at 3 mph or less, and the wind has been 8mph for months.

Seafire got me started testing rifles for accuracy at 50 yards. The wind error is way smaller than half as much compared to 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
true magic starts with consistent 5-shot groups under one-inch at three hundred yards.

Thanks. That's the sort of thing I'd like to know. I guess even the best 100yd group means nothing if it gives 3" groups at 300yds.

quote:

Originally posted by collegekidandy:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
true magic starts with consistent 5-shot groups under one-inch at three hundred yards.

Thanks. That's the sort of thing I'd like to know. I guess even the best 100yd group means nothing if it gives 3" groups at 300yds.

Andy, while Idaho Sharpshooter is correct, after 100 yards wind deflection (not wind drift) has more affect on your groups than anything else EXCEPT inconsistent muzzle velocity (MV). The closer the wind is to the bullet exiting the muzzle the more it will change bullet flight. A 5 MPH wind at the muzzle will affect bullet flight more than most people realize or allow for.

SeaFire is correct, if a load doesn’t group @ 50 yards it won’t magically “fix†itself at 100, it will only get worse. Remember you are testing the LOAD not the weather conditions or the shooters ability.

A load that shows promise @ 50 or 100 may not be inconsistent on FPS enough for it to show up until two, three or four hundred yards where groups will begin to suffer as the bullets slow. To get really accurate loads at long distance you must chronograph them for MV consistency. If you have a program to test bullet trajectory, try changing the MV by 50FPS or so and see where they end up three, four or five hundred yards downrange.
Or you can go to:
JBM Calculations
and use his formulas.

One of the cast bullet guys at the range a while back said all of his loads had to be well under 10 FPS MV variance to be accurate enough to win a match and 5 FPS was better. He always used the same powders in the same loads, and after many years of experience his testing proved that some powders in some cartridges were just more consistent in MV and in turn more accurate.

Powder type-brand-lot , powder load, MV, barrel harmonics, case crimp, primer brand/type, case brand, wind, temp, etc., ALL of these things affect accuracy to some degree. It's when they stack up against you that things can go whacky.

Hope this helps,

Mike

The afore mentioned 52 gr Berger bullet at 22-250 velocities will deflect at 300 yards by the wind:

3 mph 3.2"
5 mph 5.3"
10 mph 10.5"
15 mph 15.8"
20 mph 21.0"

I have been waiting for months for the wind to die down so I can go to the range and shoot at 100 yards instead of 50 yards.
The wind has died down to 7 mph for a few days, but then it gets stormy again.

At 100 yards, the wind deflection from 3 mph wind is .3".

http://www.accuweather.com/forecast-hourly.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0
The range opens at noon today, and we are expecting 8 mph winds.

My next trip out will be to the 200yd line. There are no ranges near by that offer more than 200yds. And its extremely difficult to find a safe spot out side of the range to go past 200yds. I love Western Washington, but it doesn't offer much in the way of flat, open country to shoot in.

In Western WA:
The public range in the Tacoma Sportsman Club at Puyallup does 200 yards and has a good wind brake.

I am now going to Issaquah, and being at the foot of Snoqualimie pass and opening at noon does not make for a low wind setting

The Tacoma Sportsman Club is where I typically go. I agree that they do have a good wind brake there. Now I just wish they would open back up the 600yd line.

Accurate is as accurate does. As long as you can hit what you are shooting at in the kill zone the accuracy is good enough.
Paper shooting becomes a completely different issue. Where in hunting a couple of inches one way or the other only matters on small varmints- .001 matters on paper.
So too answer your question : it depends!
Oh and it appears that if you miss something with your 22/250 that the rifle is not to blame.


www.duanesguns.com

To realize accuracy with a varmint rig, you need to shoot 5 shot groups, Ive been shooting 10 shot groups @200yds myself, they you see what youll be getting in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
To realize accuracy with a varmint rig, you need to shoot 5 shot groups, Ive been shooting 10 shot groups @200yds myself, they you see what youll be getting in the long run.

I agree and personally find five shot groups adequate for most load testing. Here for example are a few loads of 7WSM with WLRM primer and winchester cases.

CKA, I would say that you have yourself a rifle worth testing further!! You posted some great 100 yard groups! 100 yards tells me that I can conect fairly consistently at that range!! 200 yard, 300 yards, 400 yards, 500 yards may meter out different findings!! I have owned(built)(1/4"-1/2") super 100 yard guns but they SUCKED at 300!! I have owned built, mediocre 100 yard guns that didn't get under the 3/4" at 100 yard distance but didn't open up at the 300 yard distance!! GO FIGURE!!..........I'll help you figure!! All barrels are different!! And the next statement is something for all the folks on here to ponder..................THAT BARREL DID A SUPERB JOB OF STABILIZING THAT PROJECTIE AT EXTENDED DISTANCE!!! It was good at 100 but not superb!! SO at extended ranges it got better???????????!!! GO FIGURE!! BTDT!!! Hence my signature line.........."1/2" at 100 is not difficult!! 2" at 500 is somewhat tougher!!" GHD

I agree and personally find five shot groups adequate for most load testing. Here for example are a few loads of 7WSM with WLRM primer and winchester cases.

[/QUOTE]

Well Mr DMCI....

We all would have to admit... that 180 grain Berger group would be awfully easy to live with...

Now as all the touting of the ability of the Berger Match bullets for long range game... a 180 Berger and your WSM, that might have some interesting results in the field... if you take it out for hunting please keep us posted on the results..

cheers
seafire

Thanks for the input everyone. It's a shame that the local hunting seasons open up this weekend. Now I won't have time to do any more testing until probably January when things slow down. That's unless by some strange chance I can tag out early in the season.

I think that what you are actually asking is not how accurate but how precise. I know it is a matter of pecker pulling really when you get down to it but there is a difference.

If you have an accurate rifle then when you shoot at your target 5 times and you hit that target all 5 times regardless of where the points of impact are at, then by definition the rifle is accurate.

However, what you want is precision! What you want is a rifle that you know exactly where that rifle's point of impact is going to be at a defined range. Therefore, you need a precise rifle that will consistently place bullets exactly where you want them. Hence, looking at your grouping you have both a very precise and accurate rifle. The real test is heading to the field and trying those longer shots.

Very nice job indeed!!!

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
CKA, I would say that you have yourself a rifle worth testing further!! You posted some great 100 yard groups! 100 yards tells me that I can conect fairly consistently at that range!! 200 yard, 300 yards, 400 yards, 500 yards may meter out different findings!! I have owned(built)(1/4"-1/2") super 100 yard guns but they SUCKED at 300!! I have owned built, mediocre 100 yard guns that didn't get under the 3/4" at 100 yard distance but didn't open up at the 300 yard distance!! GO FIGURE!!..........I'll help you figure!! All barrels are different!! And the next statement is something for all the folks on here to ponder..................THAT BARREL DID A SUPERB JOB OF STABILIZING THAT PROJECTIE AT EXTENDED DISTANCE!!! It was good at 100 but not superb!! SO at extended ranges it got better???????????!!! GO FIGURE!! BTDT!!! Hence my signature line.........."1/2" at 100 is not difficult!! 2" at 500 is somewhat tougher!!" GHD

if they group better farther out it's usually the crown and if they group good at 100 and not farther out it's the load.

quote:

groundhog devastation

Yup! Interesting but not surprising (only because I know about it). The Lee Enfield did that in the target version. So did the 375 H&H. The bullet yaws on exit at the muzzle, causing it to kinda spiral around the 'mean bullet path'. The yaw dampens out down range and the bullet settles on a path closer to the 'mean'. The bullet actually 'flies', with drag and lift and gyroscopic forces and all sorts of stuff going on. Notice how a bullet always lands nose first, regardless of range and trajectory?

Them some mighty fine groups. If thats a factory rifle I think you found "the" load.

If you want to do some distance shooting, I hear that Eatonville has a 1k range. Paul Bunyan also opens their range up to 600 yards sometimes but it takes up the whole range and you wind up shooting from the back of the property, over the parking lot.

quote:

Well Mr DMCI....

We all would have to admit... that 180 grain Berger group would be awfully easy to live with...

if you take it out for hunting please keep us posted on the results..

cheers
seafire

Thanks for the kind words. Like a few others here I don't hunt with match bullets out of habit...

I'm really glad to see your new LRPV is shooting so well. Those are very good 100 yard groups. You will want to change the POA for longer range shooting, but other than that, those will work.

For long range ground hog hunting I like bullets about as heavy as my rifle will stabalize. Since my LRPV is a 9" twist, I started with 55g bullets. Those are working well (see my post on range results). My next range trip will be to shoot five 3 round groups with two bullets to make sure they are consistant. Then I'll shoot a 10 round group with each bullet and chronograph those shots.

I have a set of screening loads for the 65g Sierra spitzer boat tail and another for the Hornady 75g A-max. I have shot the A-max as a test, the barrel stabalizes it just fine. It appears to shoot slightly tighter groups at 160 yards than it does at 100, but that isn't uncommon with long heavy bullets.

My particular rifle seems to like the bullets set 0.20" off the lands.

Fitch

quote:

collegekidandy

I see no reason not to strive for 0.1 inch groups. It might be unreasonable but that's beside the point!

It would be real interesting to see how my loading technique would work in your rifle. It involves no case resizing and seating the bullet using a paper sabot. (The neck, with sabot in place, gets dipped in molten bullet lube before the bullet is seated). It seems to make seating depth/bullet jump, a non-issue. Runout seems to disappear altogether and case life is almost indefinite. I haven't been able to do definitive accuracy tests but so far all indications are very promising indeed. But I am talking rimmed, thin walled, medium pressure cartridges - 22 Hornet and 303 Brit. The stronger and thicker walled cartridges like yours may or may not be better suited to the technique. I cannot 'see' any pressure differences but find that there is a difference in point POI with the Hornet but no the 303. Neck tension is very different with the hornet but not so much with the 303.

collegekidandy,

I'd say the groups you're getting are certainly good enough for hunting rifle accuracy. Actually, they're not bad for BR rifle accuracy! They look perfect for vaporizing varmints, but half the fun of reloading is seeing just how far you can safely push various envelopes (velocity, energy, trajectory, accuracy). I'd quit there and go blast the hell out of a PD town, but why not keep striving for better?!

I see you're getting great results with IMR4064 powder. Thats been the best powder in my savage also, stayed tight to 36.3 gr's and then started to open groups up some. Your gun shows real potential, bet your pretty happy......how far off the lands? .024 was the distance for mine with 50gr V-maxes. Amazing how accurate some of these savages are in basically stock out of the box form.

Dave

Two months since his last post. He quit us already?

Good groups like that from a hunting rifle to me means it's time to stop wearing the barrel out and spend time hunting with it to get the best use from components and the gun. They'll last longer that way than continued paper punching trying to find some majical group size.

George

Hmmmmmm......guess he just wanted some opinions on his group sizes. Oh well you guys are stuck with me and I like real accurate rifles too. I started with a savage 12bvss in 22-250, took it out of the box and adjusted the trigger down to 1 1/2# (supposed to adjust there from factory but it took some accu trigger spring cutting to achieve) did a "skim" bed on the action around the factory pillars. I worked most of a summer and kept total track of rounds fired working up a load. It ended up shooting consistant .180-.240 three shot groups at 100yds with its favorite reload (36.3 gr IMR4064 - win brass - win LR primers/ older white box - hornady 50gr V-maxes at .024 off lands) at this point I bought another savage heavy take-off barrel and found it would shoot almost identical when it was needed. They cost $175 from a savage wholesaler. My smith tells me however that we can simply cut the barrel some and rechamber several times before the other barrel is needed. With the barrel nut and tools to remove and replace this won't be much of a deal. At 500 rounds its showing no signs of loosing accuracy at all so I figure between a couple cut backs and both barrels I have about 6000 rounds minimum to enjoy this rig. They are an easy to work on fun to shoot gun that really got me back into long range varminting in a big way. Doing my own bedding, barrel replacing/headspacing, trigger tuning, and barrel floating along with a floating bolthead that pretty much eliminates lug lapping I can save a lot of gunsmith cost to boot. Good and Accurate Shooting!

Dave