Couple days ago I took some of my rimfire Rifles that needed to be "sight-in verified" to my friends private range. It was very cool and the wind changed from dead calm as I left my house to bubbling and intermittent as I arrived at the range (25 minutes later). I set up anyway as this range is somewhat protected from moving air by having the 100 yard butt and the shooting point shack nestled down in an old canal. The bullets path is well under the lip of the canal and I have shot some really good groups here at this "protected" range!
I had along my Ruger 77/17 V/T in 17 HMR, my custom Ruger 10/22 (22 L.R.) with heavy Lilja barrel and my beautiful Kimber Model 22 Hunter/Silohuette (in 22 L.R. - target model with heavy stainless fluted barrel).
I set up targets at both 100 yards and at 50 yards.
My Ruger 77/17 V/T was (as usual!) just dead nuts on! I needed only to fire one 5 shot group with it, and it was a dooozey! The P.O.I. had not changed from last year AND the 5 tiny bullets made a .642" group there at 100 yards! This Ruger has a nifty Weaver 4x16 variable scope with fine crosshairs and tiny dot reticle on it!
Next, I shot my Kimber 22 L.R. with Leupold 6x18 variable scope. This Rifle has a trigger on it that simply has to be used to appreciate - it is super! I fired this Rifle at 50 yards only as I was doing some ammo testing along with sight-in checking. For the second year in a row this Rifle preferred the Federal 525 pack bulk ammo (H.P.) over the other brands I tested! The best 5 shot group that it made with its preferred ammo was .680" there at 50 yards!
Then I drag out my old standby Ruger 10/22 with the long heavy stainless Lilja barrel (with match chamber). This Rifle has a 4x12 variable on it and at least 25,000 rounds down the pipe.
The air was bubbling but still the best I could do with this Rifle and its expensive ($245.00 back then!) barrel at 50 yards was .707" - now I do not blame the "blah" type groupings with the 22 L.R.'s on the bubbling air as much as just the way things are with 22 L.R. arms and Hunting ammo!
But still, by doubling my results at 50 yards with the 22 L.R.'s and comparing those results with the Ruger 17 HMR's "actual" 100 yard groups I came up with this comparison:

Ruger 77/17 V/T 17 HMR = .642"
Ruger 10/22 Custom 22 L.R. = 1.414"
Kimber M-22 H/S Target 22 L.R. = 1.360"

Certainly this is a small sampling (example?) but considering the Ruger 77/17 cost me $390.00 and the Ruger 10/22 has about $500.00 into it and the Kimber is a 700 dollarish Rifle - the accuracy nod is definitely towards the bargain Rifle in this trio - the Ruger 77/17 V/T!
I just entered these numbers in my loading log and I see that in the past (on dead calm days) I have shot 3 different 5 shot 100 yard groups with the Kimber M-22 that measured in the high 7's and mid 8's (.779", .838" and .884"!) out at 100 yards. The "normal" or average type group for this Rifle though is just at 1.000" (or slightly above )out there at 100 yards.
So it has shot well for me in the past but still not up to the Ruger 77/17 V/T's norms.
I did get to whack a couple of Varmints on my friends ranch and that made the day "complete" for me!
I also got to see Buffalo, Elk, a young Bull Moose, Whitetailed Deer, Antelope, Mule Deer, countless Geese and Ducks along with several Hawks and Eagles. It makes the 20+ mile drive go faster viewing the all the wild life!
I then got to meet up with a couple of Big Game Hunting buddies and we had lunch at the "Dell Calf-A" (Cafe!). This tiny restaurant (former one room schoolhouse 1906 to 1958) was THE favorite restaurant of former CBS "On The Road" star and host Charles Kuralt - in all of AMERICA!
The meal was wonderful (as usual) and the talk was of Big Game Hunting and recent Wolf kills and lack of snow in the "high country" (the restaurant is at 6,100'!).
On the way home I had plenty of time to think of the varied accuracy I experienced in my rimfire Rifles!
I do know one thing - IF, I was independently wealthy, I would use the 17 HMR for ALL my Ground Squirrel shooting!
Period!
Its just so much more accurate and lethal on these worthy, Varmint creatures!
But at 2.3 cents per 22 L.R. round vs. about 16.9 cents per 17 HMR round, and, considering that I shoot from 3,000 to 4,000 22 L.R. rounds a year at the Ground Squirrels I guess I am just going to have to (as I am not independently wealthy!) stick with my various 22 L.R. Rifles for the bulk of my Gophering!
And, keep to the 17 HMR for the "long shots"!
Maybe if I win the lotto - no... not much chance there, as I have bought exactly "one" ticket in the last 9 years!
Anyone else have 17 HMR vs. 22 L.R. "debates" with yourselves?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG,

I have a CZ 452 bolt action.. that was wearing a 4 x 16 MilDot BSA scope... the scope target turrents went south, so I put on a 6 x 24 Tasco scope with a Target dot on it...

Within 100 yds, this thing with Walmart's Winchester Ammo, hits about 80 to 90% of all the ground squirrels I shoot it at.. as long as Seafire is doing what he is supposed to be doing...

I am not an auto guy ( 10/22, although I have 3 of them for kids to use, all heavy barreled ones).. but a the Bolt Action CZ sure covers a lot of shooting needs for sage rats under 100 yards.. I don't get the blow ups that 223s give, so I go for head shots on them instead.. when hit, they flop all over the place like a fish out of water...

I am pretty sold on that bolt action CZ.. I'd love to get a heavy barreled Ruger 77/22, but since I decided on that, the cost has skyrocketed thru the roof...

I sure wish my CZ would take a Ruger 25 or 30 round clip.. then I'd be all set!!!

I have a lefthanded CZ 452 in 22lr which is a beautiful little rifle that I really enjoy and it will shoot about 1.25" with match ammo at 100 yards.

But my ugly little left handed Savage 93 in 17HMR will shoot .75" - 1" with three different 17 rimfire hunting loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I have a lefthanded CZ 452 in 22lr which is a beautiful little rifle that I really enjoy and it will shoot about 1.25" with match ammo at 100 yards.

But my ugly little left handed Savage 93 in 17HMR will shoot .75" - 1" with three different 17 rimfire hunting loads.

Frank,
Since it is not a bench shooting competition.. the CZ gives minute of sage rat out to 125 yrds or so easily...the 17 HMR is more accurate hands down....

but being able to drop about 10 sage rats for the cost of ONE with the HMR.. I love that little CZ... and head shots sure are fun.....
I just keep wishing the cost of 17 HMR ammo was more reasonable....

I also want to get one of the lefty CZ 452s for my son.. who is a lefty... also looking at swapping off a 223 varmint gun for a lefty Savage 12 BVSS for him in 223....

Seafire/B17G: I wonder how far a 25 round clip would hang down on a CZ 22?
Way far I suspect.
I have 3 22 L.R. Rifles now that shoot the Federal 525 round bulk pack hollow point ammunition real well!
And I get those munitions (when on sale) for at times as low as $9.99 per 525 pack! Thats about 1.9 cents per shot! And these Federal bullets are rather lethal on the Ground Squirrels I Hunt.
I have about 11,000 (2 1/2 year supply) of the Federal 22's on hand along with a 2 years supply of Remington ammo for my 17 HMR (2,000 rounds)!
So I have "suffered" the monetary pains of ammo acquisition some time back!
I guess I have a quandry of riches in that I have plenty of Varmints to Hunt and plenty of ammunition - its just that I would rather use the 17 HMR for my pursuits BUT its just to expensive!
Dang that!
If I were to hit that "lottery" (that I keep forgetting to play!) I think my first pick (remeber no more worries about costs!) for a dedicated Ground squirrel Rifle would be the Volquartsen 10/22 style heavy barreled Rifle in caliber 17 HMR!
I would mount one of the outstanding Leupold 8.5x25 variable scopes on it - and "go to town" with it.
My friend from Conneticut who comes out each spring has one of these Rifles set up as I described and he has "made" me shoot it several times!
I tell you that semi-auto 17 HMR Volquartsen with its outstanding trigger and great balance can knock down Ground Squirrels at an incredible rate!
Its a dream to shoot!
Said Rifle (with scope) would run about $2,200.00!
Yikes to that!
More later the neighbor is coming up the drive!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I like Quickshok 22LR ammo at 8 cents.
I like .223 handloads at 8 cents.
I have little use for my 17HMR at 17 cents.

Maybe the reason I do not like my Marlin 17HMR is that I try to load it single shot and the magazine is in the way.

Maybe it just can't find a niche between the walk around blasting 22LR and the long range sniping of the .223.

Maybe it is the Marlin trigger I don't like.

Maybe it is the Hornady ammo is not right for the rifle, and I should try Winchester, per Varmint Al's page:
http://www.varmintal.com/17hmr.htm

Group Group Size(in) Mfg Ammo
A 0.364 Winchester Supreme V-Max 17 gr
B 0.588 Remington PR17HM1 ccuTip-V 17 gr
C 0.594 Hornady 17 gr V-Max
D 1.040 CCI TNT HP 17 gr
E 1.069 Hornady 20 gr XTP

Those Quick shocks sure did blow a hole in those ground squirrels last year did they Tnekkcc!

VG,

I got to admit, If I hit the lottery, I would look at the 17 HMR in a whole new light... I'd probably just purchase my 17 ammo by the pallet load per season... and have another drop shipped to my buddy's house in Billings...

Course if I won the lottery, my wife could afford to dump me and run off with a younger guy... so then I could afford to just spend my time driving around between here, Montana, Wyoming and Colorado.. shooting varmints, winter in Key West....and get to have annual hunting expeditions.. to Alaska, Quebec, Newfoundland, Finland, Norway, New Zealand... Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, for Elk, Mule Deer and Antelope.. and West Virginia & Minnesota for whitetails.....

but not all with the 17 HMR of course...

I just can't can't can't shoot squirrels with a .22lr. The .17hmr I have is more accurate than any of my .22lr's. Ya, its way more expensive. But, those .22lr's just don't turn my crank when it comes to shootin the wee vermin. Guess I better come clean here. Most of it is because my spots here in Wash have a few houses around, and farm workers...making it not safe. I would shoot one on occasion. Ya just don't get the desired effect I want with a .22lr. If things work out. I'll go through 3000 or so 17hmrs, and I have them in stock. Its pretty much the hmr for me...all the way.

Sidewinder...

I understand where you are coming from with the 22 LR just sort of doing a bang flop on the sage rats...

however, head shots are a total different response....

when hit they flop around like a fish out of water, and can cover a good 20 to 30 yd radius of where they were shot at, up until they expire...almost like the preverbial chicken with his head cut off...

then 22 LRs are suddenly FUN!!!

try it, I bet you'll like it!

LOL! I caught that in your post above seafire...and I was thinking...hmmmm, gotta try that. You can bet I try some dome shots with the ol .22.
Buying 3000 rds of .17hmrs to get ready for this spring puts a dent in the pocket book. I have them now. You might have just helped me make them last a few years. I hope I run out on the first trip though...I bought 3000 cci stingers a few years back, and only shot a few on a trip to Montana. I think it was a 5 rd clip in the 541-t. Then I put it away, and broke out one of the centerfires.
Thanks for the tip!!!

Da_sidewinder: You are the MAN! 3,000 17 HMR rounds - yee-hawwww...!
Have a great and SAFE season!

And for the others - again I must mention the several ranches I Hunt both Ground Squirrels and Prairie Dogs on that are either ALL rimfire only OR have areas of the ranches that are rimfire only!

I am getting "antsy" for spring!
10" of much needed snow has fallen here and I am into handloading for Prairie Dog and Rock Chucks - thank the heavens I do not have to HANDLOAD the ammo for my Ground Squirrel needs! I would certainly go insane if I had to "make" 3,000+ MORE centerfire rounds for the "wee Varmints"!

Tnekkcc: At what range did you (or whoever?) get those results with the various 17 HMR ammo?

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Those Quick shocks sure did blow a hole in those ground squirrels last year did they Tnekkcc!

The 17HMR makes a 1" hole out to 130 yards for 17 cents.
The .223 handload blows a squirrel in half out to 200 yards for 8 cents.
The Quickshok makes a 2" hole out to 75 yards for 8 cents.

The rockchucks cannot get back to their hole when hit with the Quickshok.
The rockchucks flip in the air and come down with a thud when hit with the .223 handload.


A Stinger pre fragmented into three pieces.
CCI is licensing the rights to manufacture Quickshok ammo from the Polywad Corporation.

In contrast, this is what the 17HMR red tipped Vmax does: