I am looking for scope input for a 700 VS in .223. Would mainly be used for paper punching, and ground squirrels (100 to 350 yards, mostly 300 and under).

This is my first varmint rig. Already a heavy rifle, and not planning on toting it long distances, so weight is not a big issue.

Is the 6x20 too much scope?
Is the 4.5x14 enough scope?

What do you gus think?

Thanks in advance for the input.

Hello neighbor to the south, I've got a 6-24 Burris Sig. on mine, shooting at 300yds. on 24X still makes a PD target look a little small, but managageable, I'd suggest looking at this scope if your going past 300, they go for around $440 through Midway, Natchez, etc. with the Fine plex, a Leupold 6.5-20x is a fine scope also, but you'll pay about 100 bucks more or so, which isn't neccesarily going to give you a better scope, just a lighter wallet, compare the two, and decide, won't go wrong with either scope, the top 2 IMHO, OK, the Nikon Monarch is right there with the Burris and Leupold, but not made in AMERICA, if that's important to you like it is to me. Jay

I've got both and love both. However, I use them in different manners. The 4.5-14 I have mounted on my 300RUM for large game. The 6-20 I have on my 22-250 for varmint hunting and paper punching.

For what you are doing, I would definitely go with the 6-20 with a fine duplex. You'll need the added magnification for those tiny ground squirrels.

I did a day-long prarie dog hunt last month and had occasion to use several different scopes and rifles. I found that there was little difference in a 12x and and 18x in being able to clearly see the target at as much as 500 yards. I know that ground squirrels are smaller than prairie dogs, but 300 is less than 500, and 12/18x is less than 14.5/20x, also. As a matter of fact, magnification was NOT the issue in hitting 'dogs at 300 and 400 yards, even with a 3-9x Compact. Ranging errors, wind, mirage, and steadiness were all problems, but magnification wasn't. I did note that the very narrow field of view on the 18x made it difficult to pick up the target once spotted with binoculars, and I frequently had to turn the power down, spot the target, then turn the power back up for the shot.

I would say that either scope you mention will do just fine for the application you intend. The 14x will have enough magnification, and the 20 still has plenty of lower-end range to take care of a shorter-range circumstance. Get whichever power you prefer, but don't let anyone sidetrack you into something besides Leupold. In the long run you'll be sorry, for a whole host of reasons I won't go into here.

Good shooting!

How are you going to adjust for elevation and windage? Target knobs, holding off or mil dots?

The Leu's have very large target knobs. Some other brands have what that are called finger knobs.

Do you have a range finder?

I was looking at the leupold with the target knobs and the dot reticle. I already have a good laser range finder to use. Definately looking for input as I am a newbie to centerfire varminting.

Lot's of practice as a kid with a .22LR (Rem 582) and even more with a pellet gun (Sheridan bluestreak).

Look'in forward to trying out the .223.

Get the more powerful scope. I have a new Leu 4.5 X 14 Tac and it's just fine for it's purpose of long range coyotes and group shooting to 200 yds. Even at 200 yds I could use a tiny bit more power but that scope is very sharp. Not a bad choice.

But for tiny varmints at longer range and maybe some target shooting at that range why not the higher power?

Again those knobs on the Leu. Tac look way too big. They are larger than the ones on a Unertl Ultra Varmint for cripes sakes.

I just ordered a Sightron 6-24 with target knobs for rifle testing. That scope may not be a "multicoated" as whatever but I want mechanical reliability #1. Leu does not have anything that powerful as far as I know.

I am into switching scopes on rifles as the testing gets completed and the game season gets on. Then I change the scope from a powerful one to a 2 X 7.

Your pocket book is not going to like my reply; but you will afterwards. I would get a 6 X 20 X 50mm - 30mm tubed side parallax adjustable Leupold. The variable makes it east to spot on 6x; then zoom to 20x. The side parallax makes adjustment easy to get the crosshairs dead on for distance ( this helps real accuracy allot ). The 30mm tube gathers more light but mainly gives the room for leupold to work their internal magic. I have one on my latest varmit rig and absolutely love it. I will have no other scope on any future varminter. After the pocketbook shock is over; you will love it too. And for years to come. This scope is a hybrid from their tactical and benchrest R&D and has alot going for it; even for the money. Shop around hard for the best price. The side parallax adjustment alone is worth the difference from a 1 inch tube. I can read the size 12 print on a printed target at 100 yards when I dial in the parallax. This also locks the crosshairs dead on for that distance. Ask any benchrest shooter; one of them put me on to this scope.

Burropacker,
I have to go along with Jethro on this one. My 4.5-14x Leupold is on my .25-06 and is used for coyote and antelope hunting. My 6.5-20x is on my left-hand Rem 700VS in .223. I go through between 1000 and 1800 rounds every year on prairie dogs in a three state area. On small targets, you'll love the added power...not to mention load development tasks made easier.

I'd go with the 4.5 x 14 hands down. On a varmint rifle, as the temp heats up, the power range above 14 becomes useless.

However if you need to go with a 6.5 x 20, then I agree with Old and Slow. The 30mm tube is well worth the extra expense. I really don't see a need for power over 14 to 16 on a rifle, unless it is sporting a 30mm tube. I don't consider that scope on a mobile rig, but stationary, it can't be beat. Turns the scope into a different animal. Ya also need the 50 mm objective to take full advantage of it.
A 30 mm tube also increases your target adjustments dramatically!

( I just don't personally buy a scope that costs as much as a house payment. I am busy buying several more rifles, I really don't need instead)

Seafire, I agree in one aspect to your response, but it still seems the 6-20 is better suited for the task. He will still have the option of staying below the 14 setting if he wants, but can also go to the the 20 setting if needed. He will be missing the lower end of 4.5, but it sounds like from his original post that his minimum shots will mostly be around 100yds. At that range, the 6 will work great.

I own several of both the scopes your are thinking about buying. They are both very good models.

Based on your second post where you mention you newness to centerfire varminting, I would recommend the 4.5 X 14. By the way, I wish I had my old Blue Streak back, still have the old Remington bolt 22LR.

The 4.5 X 14 scope is smaller and you will not be as likely to bump it, etc. The AO on the 6.5 X 20 is a little on the fragile side. I have buddies who have sent four 6.5 X 20 Leupolds back now because the AO went south and the scopes would not hold zero. (Two of them broke while 1500 miles from home on a prairie dog trip!)

More importantly, you will find the eye relief more forgiving on the 4.5 X 14. The higher powered scopes are more critical on eye relief and a little bit of a problem for new shooters some times.

Also, I shoot a LOT of ground squirrels out to more than 300 yards with a .223 Rem that wears a 4.5 X 14 and it is plenty of scope for that use.

Just my thoughts, R F

I have the 4.5 X 14 Leupold and I really like it. I also have to admit, it is on .22-250 I use mostly for coyotes.

I also have a vintage Lyman 20x, but use it on a M37 target rifle. It is nice to look into the gophers eye, or ear for that matter, pull the trigger, and watch 'em flop over.

I have to give Old & Slow credit, he's set me to thinking about the 30m/m tube. It may very well be the best choice, no compromise scope out there.

Burro: You've gotten lots of opinions and all have some points of validity; I'm sure you'll make up your own mind and make a suitable choice.

One misunderstanding of optics needs to be corrected, however. The diameter of the main tube of the scope has nothing to do with "brightness", light gathering, or light transmission. The larger tube CAN accomodate a greater range of lense dispacement and thus provide you with a proportionally greater range of reticle adjustment. However, it is unusual for your mounts to be so misaligned with the axis of your bore as to require this greater adjustment, or for the distance over which you shoot to need greater adjustment than is available in the "standard" one-inch tube.

As to the 50mm objective versus the 40mm, the 50 will provide a larger exit pupil, but under the conditions in which a long range varmint rifle is used (daylight), a larger pupil provides no additional "brightness". A distinct disadvantage to a 50mm objective is that it will likely require mounting the scope high enough that you will no longer be able to firmly rest your cheek against the comb of the stock and still see the sight picture. This is detrimental to a steady hold and accurate shooting.

One issue which no one has yet raised is the ability to maintain your sight picture as the bullet strikes -- for purposes of gratification in the case of a hit and for purposes of correction in the case of a miss. Even with a rifle as light-recoiling as a .223 in a heavy version, you may have difficulty keeping the target within the field of view during recoil with something as powerful as 24X. Use your variable power feature judiciously: You'll find it much more satisfactory to turn it down to a level where you can "call your own shots" than to have it so high that the target, no matter how big and clear, is lost the moment the trigger is pulled.

Have fun with your new rig!

[ 08-26-2003, 19:43: Message edited by: Stonecreek ]

Burropacker:
I just went through this very same decision awhile back and finally opted for 4.5x14 Leupolds. One will go on a 25-06 and the other on a 22-250 AI.

Good Shooting,
Ben H

P.S.-You can always upgrade down the road if you need more power. One of the nice things about Leupold's is their resale value.

Thanks for all the input. As usual, it is very insightful. Impossible to get so much info pre-web.

My decision may have jagged though. I was assuming I would get the Remington VS new, but I have spotted a used Sako Varmint in .223 (with a Nikon Monarch 6.5-20x44 A/O matte target scope) that I am tempted by.

I fall in with most of the other opinions. I use
a 6.5 x 20 on my custom AR15 heavy barrel. Although I very seldom turn up the power past 14x. At high power target acquisition is tough.
But, I must admit it is a nice option to have. If you have a 6.5x20 you can always turn it down. I like the Leupold. I also use a Weaver V16. I have used it for a couple of years now on my Savage in .223. I have been happy with it. But I find that I have the power all the way up most of the time. The Burris is a quality Scope. Don't know about the Nikon. Also.. Leupold backs up there products... period. That is nice as well.

In the end, you have to make the decision. I will tell you that I have sold off all my Tasco and Simmons scopes. Never was too happy with them once I tried a Leupold. Oh, I also recently purchased an B&L Elite 3200. It's ok so far. Only time will tell.

I have a 4.5 X 14 Leupold 1" tube Tacticl and love it. It is fast becoming my favorite scope. Crystal clear, plenty of adjustment for going long, light enough to put on a carry rifle, enough magnifaction for precision work off the bench at 100 yds. Enough magnifaction to get a sight picture on small targets at 500 to 600 yards. I do prefer my 6.5 X 20 LRT's for 1000 yard work but I wouldn't want that scope on a rifle I was going to carry very far. I have no experience with Burris scopes but I know you can't go wrong with a Leupold.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight......RiverRat

All good stuff!
I have both the 4.5-14/50 and the 6.5 - 20 leo's - butI use a Weaver V16 on the .223 - does everything at a good budget - there always the V24 too...

I have a Swift 6-18x44 scope that I purchased from www.eabco.com and so far it is an excellent scope for the money. It is mounted on my Savage 10FP .223 caliber and does a good job when I punch holes with it at 100 yards. It has excellent optics and will save you some major $$$ versus a Leupold. It's a good starter scope and when you have extra $$$ you can always buy a Leupold. The Swift scopes have a lifetime warranty

I'd opt for the 6.5-20x X 40 with The duplex reticle. You can then use your scope to range p dogs or anything else of known height. You can also lessen the mirage effect of barrel heat with an objective lense extension and a wet towel draped over the length of the barrel. The evaporation keeps the barrel fairly cool even on hot days. I have one of these scopes on each of my varmint rifles.

DO NOT get the dot.you cant see the thing half the time.I had a 24XBR 1/8th dot and hated every minute of it.

I have the 8.5-25 LRT Fine Duplex and have to say it is something.

Leo 4-14 Tactical is all you need.....nice scope. Tall towers lots of elevation. Either the 1" tube 40mm or the new 30mm tube with side focus.

My .02 cents is; Get yourself the best scope you can efford and don't look back. Nothing replaces quality or power for either bench or varmint shooting besides, your eyes will love you for it.

The 6x20 Leupold Target model, meaning knobs and A/O feature are as good as it gets unders $600. Leupold speaks for themselves too when it comes to standing up for your product. Recently I purchased a 6x20 Zeiss and find it to be outstanding, although more expensive. The side focus is a joy beyond believe and, their occular lense adjustment is much easier too!

Your reticle choice is very important, no dots! Get the fine duplex for the best of both worlds or standard duplex if varmint shooting is more critical. Fine crosshair is also good but I find it harder to focus on over long shooting sessions.

Good shooting - RIC

Burropacker: I now have three 223 Rifles that are strictly used for Varminting. Once their load development was completed they only go to the range for sight in verification before Hunts.
Two of my 223 Varmint Rifles have the Leupold 6.5X20's on them and they work splendidly for Colony Varminting and I have taken many Coyote and Fox with them also. The slight shortcoming of the smaller field of view of these powerful variables when used for night Hunting of Predators is "livable" for me. I do not hesitate to use them when calling and spotlighting at night - but I know once they get in real close I may need to realign things a time or two to get the Predator in the field of view.
My third 223 Varminter is a Remington 700 Classic and it has a Leupold 4X12 on it. I use it mostly for Predators and as a walking Varminter for everything - but at times I do wish for the extra power!
The place where the 6.5X20's really shine for me is when Hunting Prairie Dogs and Rock Chucks and those big old smart ones are just bridging their mound or peering out from a rock crevice and the only thing visible is the eye and the top of a head! Whop em! The 6.5X20 will come through for you!
The extreme accuracy that is capable with todays bullets and components in a 223 will be evident with the higher power also.
I have killed many a Varmint at 400 yards with my 223's - do not sell it short! Again this is where the larger variables really shine!
That settles it in my opinion if you are gonna be shooting for pleasure at the range then the 6.5X20 is worth the very few extra dollars over the cost of a 4.5X14!
I am just bringing on line a new Remington 700 VSS in 223. This is the all stainless Varmint with gray (they call it black) laminated stock model. I plan on buying a Leupold 6.5X20 silver scope for it as soon as the mad money stash gets a bit bigger!
Good luck with whichever you choose!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Why dont you guys look through the best optics in the world...Swarovski.Down the 1000yd range the over day to check out a couple of leupold 6.5-24lrt as i was going to buy one.Why do leupold persist with average glass. These scopes are well made but optically no comparison to a 4.5-16x50mm Swarvo i had the pleasure to look through.Iknow they cost more but its money well spent.Just my ten cents worth. 6MMBR FAN.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Burropacker:
[QB]I am looking for scope input for a 700 VS in .223. Would mainly be used for paper punching, and ground squirrels (100 to 350 yards, mostly 300 and under).

This is my first varmint rig. Already a heavy rifle, and not planning on toting it long distances, so weight is not a big issue.

Is the 6x20 too much scope?
Is the 4.5x14 enough scope?

What do you gus think?

I use everything from an old weaver k-4 to a premier 14x32 leupold. My favorite is an old T-6 and the new leupold target 6x and all of them have very small dots and that isn't a problem for me shooting PD. I also like the 3x9 compact efr ao mine was tricked out by premier and worth the money. I got one of those 30mm 6.5/20 with mil dots and haven't had a chance to shoot it. I thing with the side focus is great for varmits but may be too pricy for some. I won't use one for hunting don't like an ao on an elk rifle. I don't think for a varmit rig you can ever has too much scope. I would get what my pocket book can afford of the two I would go with the 6.5/20 and I would take the 6x18 over the 4.5x14. I've got about 40 leupolds on various rifles and they are a great scopes. I won't be afraid to put one of those new 3x9 II on a varmit rig and shoot 500 yds at PD. In fact I got a new 22-250AI coming and may just do that. Well good luck Tom

I have an 8x36 on a .223 that stays on 36 all the time.
I have a 4x12 on a .223 that stays on 12 all the time.
I have a 13x40 on a 257 that stays on 40 all the time.

If the target is holding still, I always want more power. If the target is running, I always want less.