After reading some of the other gun shooting threads here it appears there are many out there who consider the writers spewing the tripe in the mag.rags experts. Isn't it a fact that they are just writers with a college degree possiably in journalism, who are given data on new rifles & cartriges by the manifactures and maybe a rifle in a new caliber to shoot a few times. Do any of them really have any expertees in building and testing any thing new?
I feel they are just writers not experts, some just have more experance.
Al

Agreed,,, there are many writers out there that do most of their research behind a typewriter. But by the same token there are some that are of the "been there done that" school.

If you look through both "Handloader" and "Rifle" magazines you will find alot of good information. But, I still don't agree with everything I see in print in these pages either. One writer in particular is like "fingernails on the chalkboard" to me. Of course everyone has a different perspective. I'm sure many of the people on this forum fall into the same catagory as myself, in that we have more experience than most of the gun writers, but I still pickup a good tip now and then.

Just the way I see it,,,,,

A gun writer of prominance who is still with us wrote a piece up on the Remington 40X. He concluded that it was unsuitable for postition target shooting.

Since he lived in my state and I owned a new 40X as was cleaning up the big bore leagues with it I wrote him a letter challanging him to a match. All he had to do was to drive down to the Blue Trail Range in Wallingford, CT and enter as it was open to the public. I would look at the entries on the published scores from time to time but he never showed up.

The challange is still open today. It's raining out and he knows who he is. If he calls me today I am ready and I will shoot my 40X against him in the rain. As you can tell I am confident. He knows he is not only wrong on what he wrote but that I am a ringer.

Come on. Expert!

Some gunwriters do write intelligent and original articles and clearly exhibit experience and expertise in shooting, reloading, gunsmithing, etc. I see examples of these articles in Rifle, Handloader, Precision Shooting, and in Shooting Times. I really like the work of Rick Jamison, Mike Venturino, Dave Scovill, Ken Waters, John Barsness, and a few others. In my opinion, they are to be commended and know their stuff.

Other "writers" spew garbage that is little more than a thinly veiled sales pitch for the particular item they are writing about. These articles really turn me off. These guys spout off almost any kind of nonsense about their manufacturer promoted topic and the BS meter really hits overload. I routinely skip articles by a certain writer in Shooting Times because I find this to be his style.

Another class of "gunwriters" that really turns me off is the one that simply recaps, rehashes, repeats, ad nauseum... the work of other, usually dead, authors such as Elmer Keith, Jack O'Conner, and other notables. Rarely do they come up with anything orignal. It seems the focus of the article is not to write something profound, but to show how much they know about someone else's work or to tell you that they once met "so and so," shook his hand, asked him one or two questions, and now have become an expert because of this.

Like anything else, you have to evaluate what you read and compare it to your own experiences and decide what works and what is BS.

GLC,

You pegged it,,and I'm glad you mentioned Barsness, Waters, and Scovill. They are outstanding.

Just the way I see it,,,,,,,,

The real problem I have with a lot of these computer outdoorsmen is they are perceived as experts by the novices. This is not only a disservice to the beginner, it can be downright dangerous.

You know, back in 1994 i was working as a lab tech. in a hospital on the graveyard shift. Of course that shift typically is not too busy, and not overun with administrative types so we did a lot of T.V. work. The girl i was working with suggested i write an article on hunting, imstead of watching the tooob so much, since all i ever did was bend her ear about it. I wrote a small piece on woodchucking back in MD, and tried to present it to 3 different gun rags. They all turned me down, but i didn't give up, and finally sent it into Fur, Fish, Game, and they bought it and published it. Since then i've written for about 4 or 5 mags. in a freelance capacity, and haven't done too badly with it. At one time i was considering field editorship, but the more i got to thinking about it the less it appealed to me, because i didn't want it to become a job. I write because i love to write, and although i can't deny there are some out there that give it a bad rap, i wouldn't get too stereotypical about it, after all, contrary to popular belief, 1 bad apple doesn't really ruin a barrel-- if that were really the case there wouldn't be any good barrels around at all.

What I've found is the usual gun mags, Guns and Ammo, Shooting Times, Guns are on a 12 to 15 month cycle.
What do I mean cycle, Jan. 2001 issue of Bang-um and Wang-um, the lead article is "Do 44 mags handle jacketed bullets as well as 458 Win mags??
Then the April 2002 issue of Bang-um and Wang-um lead article will be "How to use the 44 mag to work up loads for your 458 Win mag African rifle."
Then in the June 2003 issue of Bang-um and Wang-um there will be an article on "Will using 458 Mag powders and primers in 44Mags help the penetration on African plains game in Rhoad Island."
I've seldom seen an article in one of the monthly gun mags, where a writer has said the barrels used on the Flugglehiemer would better be used as fence posts, or the stock work was awful, or the reloading dies would better serve as raw material for land fill.
The gun writers are salesmen pure and simple. If the gun writers ever stop selling the advertizers products the gunwriter is out of a job.
Once I've read a years worth of any news stand gun mags, there's nothing left to read.
Jim

I quit buying them years ago. I still get the American Rifleman on my NRA Life Membership. It has some interesting stuff. Also some of the "salesman" type articles.

Arkiepete, you've discribed the majority (it seems) of the writers (and mags). They do one work up on one rifle/pistol/calibre/outdoors item or research what others have written about it and then milk it for several articles -padding them out with lotsa lotsa computer generated graphs.

Alleyooper: You are correct on occassion I read some real hard to swallow stuff from todays crop of instant experts!
One writer I follow very closely and have as yet to take even the smallest issue with is Steve Timm! I have met him three times briefly over the years at Gunshows and at a Varmint Hunters Jamboree. I even had the pleasure of buying Mr. Timm AND Darrell Holland lunch in Portland Oregons some years back. Now some stories were told that day!
Mr. Timm is VERY intelligent with a large dose of common sense! He has a fantastic wit and sense of humor. AND THIS MAN LOVES TO HUNT AND SHOOT! No pretense with him, he really gets into his Guns and Hunting!
I would say about 5 to 10% (this is an opinion I have formed over the last 20 years) of what is presently written in Guns and Hunting magazines is conjecture or put together tripe that is somewhat researched, guessed at, rumored, hearsayed and just on occassion flat out blather!
I have cancelled virtually all my subscriptions to all the magazines I used to get. The exceptions are Varmint Hunters Magazine and the American Rifleman.
I simply do not feel the others are worth the money anymore! And part of it is the 10% blather most magazines are made up of these days along with the I came, I saw, I shot it style of superficial writing!
I have several friends that "give" me numerous magazines each month and I keep up but am not impressed enough to renew any of my old favorites.
I hope that changes.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Gentlemen:

My opinion is that most gun writers are whores---for their own interests and whatever or whoever they happen to want to promote at the moment, for their own idiosyncratic reasons.

Several years ago Steve Timm wrote an article in Varmint Hunter in which he was critical of the seventeen caliber, claiming to have once owned one in Mach IV, built by Kimber on a model 84, but which did not shoot worth a damn. He want on to say that the seventeens fouled excessively, were inaccurate, etc. In other words, the standard criticisms of those who have a hidden agenda. I suspect the true animus of Timm's criticism was the fact that he has close ties [perhaps even financial] to Nosler. And of course, Nosler does not make a seventeen caliber bullet and is losing alot of business to Hornady in the seventeen and twenty calibers.

So, someone dredged up an old article, a review by Timm on the very Kimber rifle and caliber written more than decade earlier about which Timm now cannot say anything good. In the old article, Timm could not say enough good about the rifle or caliber. Of course, he was working for Kimber at the time.

Of late, Timm has become a whore for Darrel Holland. Not that Darrel is not a fine gunsmith. He is. But Timm's writing does not even pretend to be objective.

Recently Rick Jamison [November issue, Shooting Times] wrote an article on action accurizing. The key component of the process he outlined is an accurizing sleeve and technique pioneered by Greg Tannel. Tannel is barely mentioned in the article. But a gunsmithing business in Springfield Oredon is heavily touted and promoted. In the end the article opines, if you want your action accurized, it should be done by this business in Springfield.

Guess who owns the business? You guessed it. Rick Jamison. Jamison is writing about and promoting his own business for free. I wonder if the publisher, editor and the rest of Shooting Times advertisors know about that.

Best,

Jordan

Jordan: It took a while but I did it! I did it for you! I went through EVERY issue of THE VARMINT HUNTERS Magazine! And every article Mr. Timm has written! I finally found Mr. Timm referring to 17 caliber Rifles! It is in issue #40 October 2,001. Mr. Timms lengthy article on his favorite Varmint cartridges devotes 8 paragraphs to the 17 caliber Rifles he has owned (7 of them?) and while he praises their speed and trajectory he does bemoan their barrel fouling propensities! Something I have not noticed in the four 17 calibered Varminters I now own! I take back my never having issue with Mr. Timm! I disagree with his opinion on this situation! He does clarify his dislike for the 17's in his usages as he mentions he likes to shoot up to 700 rounds per day with his smaller caliber Varminters!
Mr. Timm makes no mention of the inherent inaccuracy of the 17's at all in this article. Although one could improvise conjecture from his statement that if he is having copper fouling he might be getting poor accuracy? He does not state such however. He does praise the 17's though again for the flat trajectory and absence of recoil! Important things with which I agree. He does refer to the Kimber Jordan pointed out as a "lovely Rifle".
I knew Mr. Timm was close VERY CLOSE with the Leupold people but had no idea he was "in cahoots" with the Nosler folks!
And this Jordan - add Gordy Gritters name to the list of "whoring for" Gunsmiths by Steve Timm! Refer to Mr. Timms article on Mr. Gritters proficiency in THE VARMINT HUNTER Magazine issue #48 October 2,003. I know Mr. Holland is a competent and honest man who caters to Varminters alot! And Mr. Timms endorsement of Mr. Holland COULD be described better in other terms rather than - whoring! Maybe "slathers praise upon for reasons undetermined at this point".
Also this Jordan can a person (Mr. Timm) feel animus for an object (Kimber 17 MachIV) I thought animus could only be conveyed upon a person? (Reference = The American Collegiate Encyclopedic Dictionary - Spencer Press 1957 Two Vloume Set weight 40 pounds!).
Good to hear from you! Mulies soon to be in the bag! Dillon Beavers 8 wins 0 losses! Regular season over. Bye week last next up round one for Beavers in the playoffs against Laurel, Montana? Then perhaps Miles City next for championship! Go Beavers!
Send rain!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Dale:

I guess I should be alot more careful posting when you are around! I will defer to the actual copy, which you have before you and not my memory. I wish I still had a copy of the article from 10-12 years ago. Todd Kindler had it and, to use your word, Timm was "slathering" over his Mach IV and the seventeen in general. In the article in Varmint Hunter isn't there a sentence in there were he essentially says the .17 caliber is not as good a choice as the .22 calibers? I and Kindler took that as a deliberate slap at the seventeen in the service of Nosler. I believe Timm is or has been on their payroll recently [possibly in a consulting role] or has received gratuities from them. So, there was reason to believe Timm was indeed using his bully pulpit for a little "whoring". Todd Kindler, to my best information and belief, no longer advertises in Varmint Hunter because of Timm's editorial license against small calibers.

I will not quibble with you over "animus" except to note that several dictionaries [Oxford Encyclopedic, Black's Law Dictionary] say that it denotes "ill will or feeling". Timm, it seems to me, has a certain amount of ill-will toward the seventeen's putative propensity to foul.

Several years ago I wrote to Timm and suggested he take a look at the gunsmithing work of Greg Tannel. Greg developed the action accurizing fixture and technique which Gritters focused on in his article [and which Jamison focused on in his article]. At the time Greg was getting some attention in Precision Shooting, building some recored setting 1000 yard guns, etc. But he was also struggling and really needed some exposure [at least I thought so----he is a hell of a metalsmith]. Timm wrote me back and said, in so many words, "thanks, but I decide which gunsmiths I will feature".

Fair enough. But the accurizing techniques and fixtures featured in the Gritters story were pioneered by Greg Tannel, not Gordy Gritters. [Note, Greg did not pioneer bolt sleeving, but he certainly improved on it with the use of fitted mandrels and boring bars for the bolt bore raceway]. Indeed, the photos in the Gritters article depict the exact same processes and steps as those in Greg's web site. I mean, it is obvious where the ideas are coming from. Moreover, I am personally aware that Gritters has purchased Greg's tooling and his videos on gunsmithing.

Now, none of this is to fault Gritters. He is a fine 'smith, made all the better by GTR tooling and techniques. After all, Greg Tannel [GTR tooling] did sell Gritters his tooling and videos. Indeed, in other forums, Gritters has given Greg the credit for pioneering these ideas and fixtures.

So, is the real story here that someone bought Greg's techniques, instruction videos and tooling and learned how to use them? Of course not. The story is the inventor---the 'smith who had the idea in the first instance. And here we have Rick Jamison and Steve Timm whoring for others [well, in Jamison's case, for himself] who they happen to like. Gritters of course has ingratiated himself with Varmint Hunter magazine. He advertizes there!

Greg Tannel does not advertize in Varmint Hunter and so there is simply no way he is going to get press from Timm. The symbiotic relationship between who advertizes and who gets published is just what I said it is---"whoring".

So, as I stated in my original post and believe I have demonstrated here, Timm is no different from most of the gunwriters out there. Money talks. As a result, coverage and "news" is distorted---in the service of the gunwriter's personal agenda [or the agenda of those he likes---often the magazine's advertisers]. Have you ever read a negative review in a glossy gun magazine about one of the magazine's advertizers? It is rarer than hen's teeth.

Glad to know the Beavers had such a great year. How big is your boy now Dale? And how is that QB playing? I'll be he is a major college prospect. He was great as a Freshman. Does your son have plans for major college ball? He was a big kid last time I saw him.

Best,

Jordan

Jordan: May I go off on a tangent here! Yes young Torey Thomas is now as fast as ever - maybe faster! I am constantly amazed when he bursts forth with his dazzling speed! I mean I am not exagerating when I say tears SHOOT out of my eyes when I see him hit high gear! His severely dislocated hip from last year thankfully has completely healed and yes he is highly scouted and wooed!
He broke into the short secondary a couple games back from his quarterback position and the 3 deep defenders all had the angle on him and they proceeded forth at him! He simply sped past them with speed none could anticipate and their angles failed them! He scored and I memorized that moment. I will say it again with no racism intended - he is the fastest white child I have ever seen! He could not compete the full year in track last year but did well once going! He also has intercepted many passes as he is a deep defender on defense! His leaping ability is simply spectacular!
My son is 6' 4" and 180 pounds and is just now finishing his hour long dinner fest! The VarmintSon also is both a defensive end (pass rusher) and an offensive tackle! He sleeps well after every game! He plays 90%+ of all plays. He also kicks off under certain circumstances! He has made many great plays himself this year. The coach was just stricken for a tackle and my son gave up his pass catching from the offensive end position!
I will reread the article ASAP and report further tomorrow. I already put it in its orderly place in its slip cover and I will get it out tomorrow. I drove all night last night under tough conditions to get home from a Hunt, and am still tired! Oh to be 18 again!
Two days to recover now for me.
You are exactly right I have next to never read
a negative review of an advertisers product in that particular magazine.
And they do not have to be negative they can be constructively critical! Point out the good and the bad!
The VarmintSon wants to be an engineer and stay with one of his grandmothers in Seattle and go to the University of Washington. This season of football, basketball and track will most likely be his last. He is so close athletically. He has already qualified for academic scholarships as he gets straight "A"'s and he did very well on some college aptitude test! Thank his mother for the smarts!
More later I am fading fast.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

As shooters we are the real testers of guns scopes and all the different types of ammo and componits. Many a fine cartrage has been made obosilte by gun writers who like us gets those guns from time to time You just can not get to hit twice in the same spot in a thousand trys. That is why places like this are so good as long as people act like adults which I think happens at this site.
I took a look at a different shooting site a friend told me about some of the post just have to be from kids with no common sence.
I do not subcribe to any Magizines other than Michigan Out Doors and American Hunter. From time to time I will buy other rags if some article catches my attention. Stick some thing on the cover like How to score in the big woods and you have my attention till I look at the article, most times skimming thru it it isn't about the big woods in my sence at all. To me the big woods is at least 25 square miles with out a cleared farm field of any sorts.
Al

Alleyyooper:Pardon me I misspelled your monicker in an above posting I hope I got it correct this time. Great topic you brought up by the way.

Jordan: After re-reading the entire article I have concluded you are right there can be no mistake that Mr. Timm's intent in the article is to bemoan the suitability of the 17's for Colony Varmint Hunting due to fouling/accuracy problems. I think he is wrong on this conclusion.
It is always enlightening to get inside insights like yours on the way things are!
I looked into every article Mr. Timm wrote in all the Varmint Hunter Magazines including his book reviews and Rifle Project articles as well as his in depth Varmint Hunting stories and even though I disagree with his thoughts on 17's I am still impressed (or should I say entertained) with his style and depth of article writing.
He often wrote three articles per issue! So I could not read them all but did scan them all for the easy to pick out numbers like 223 Ackley Improved and 6-284. The numbers really stand out and I did not find but just the one reference to 17's. This is a shortcoming that I rate a 6 on the 1 to 10 scale. No 17 caliber project Rifles were reviewed that I detected. I hope some are forthcoming!
Snow in the foothills here today the drought may be changing from EXTREME down to MODERATE!
Thanks again for your insights and opinion.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[ 10-29-2003, 23:05: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

There's a magazine shop near me that has a good selection of firearms magazines. I go in, grab a plastic milk carton on which to sit and read the table of contents in each publication. I'm fortunate to find one article in four or five books that's of any interest to me. I know ours is not a limitless activity, but they can do better, much better. A typical selection might be, Leopards of the Kalahari, long guns of the colonial British in India, is the .38-55 really today's rifle, customizing your ATV for the deer trails, all stuff to which I cannot relate. I rarely buy a gun magazine anymore. It's the topic selection that's gawd awful as well as the writers. Most of the writers strike me as "homers," guys who praise each and every item to the hilt, good, bad or ugly makes no difference. We need the magazines to promote hunting, but I fear more and more of them will bite the dust. It's really quite sad. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Someone above stated to the effect that "there's nothing new to write about". I think some gun writers and publishers think so, too. Five or six years ago, I picked up a copy of Barmint Hunter, a magazine I had read and considered subscrbing to. As I looked at an article, one in particular by Don Lewis caught my eye and looked somewhat familier. I had been looking through some old copies of Pennsylvania Game News a few weeks earlier and had seen the same article.....in an issue that was about 15 - 20 years older. I wrote to the editor of VH asking if he knew the article was a "retread" and what was his stand on it. He was kind enough to respond to me stating that, yes, he knew it had been published before and, no, he didn't see anything wrong with it. I asked if I could have a discount on a subscription because it looked like some of his articles were "used". Of course, he declined the offer, but I never subscribed.

"Nothing new to write about." That's not far from the truth. Firearms, cartridges and hunting are all very mature technologies.

Emil-- i know John Anderson, senior editor of VH personally-- he's one of the nicest, and tactful people i know, and an excellent well-educated editor. Sounds like you have at least a little more than a passing interest in varmint hunting. By not subscribing to that magazine you probably did yourself a disservice. I mean, did you really take a good look at that mag.? Some of the best writers in the business are present in that publication. Mic McPherson, Norman Johnson, Steve Timm, and others. I have been keenly involved in varmint hunting since the mid-70's and that mag. is hands down the best out there. It's an organizational publication which means that many of the articles are solicited without pay. That means that many of those writers do it because they want to, and feel they have something to contribute. They're not motivated by a paycheck-- they have a passion for they're interest. Any varmint hunter that checks out that mag. and doesn't recognize its worth relative to the rest out there, well... remember my earlier post? One bad apple, one bad apple, one bad apple?