Like alot of people on these boards I have a Montana Rifle Co. action on order and mine's going into a varmint rifle.
I want an honest 500 yard rifle so I was considering a number of different chamberings 22-250, 220 Swift, 22-243 etc. but from what I gather anything as overbore as a 22-243 or more (22-284, 22-264, etc. all measure barrel life in the 100's of rounds versus the 1,000's of rounds that I'd prefer. So, I was considering the Ackley Improved cartridges and I think I've decided on a 22-250 Ackley Improved, but I'd welcome opinions on anything you might think is better for this.

[ 05-21-2003, 02:23: Message edited by: Fjold ]

If you are looking to build a 500 yard varmint rifle I prefer to use the heavier bullets in these calibers, and for shooting the heavy bullets the .22-243 will shine. You can expect to get around 2000 shots out of a well maintained barrel in this caliber also. My current is a Shilen barreled 700 in 22 CHeetah that shoots extremely well at long ranges with 39 grains of Varget behind a 75gr. A-max.

Fjold: I think you have hit the correct long range caliber/barrel life balance right on the head with the 22-250 Ackley Improved. I would go with as long a barrel as 27 1/2" to 28 1/2"! There is some free velocity in here. Then the secret is plenty of scope power! I would suggest the now discontinued Leupold 8.5X25X40mm. I have several of these and consider them the finest long range Varmint scope I have ever owned. Now maybe some real pointy bullets for the 22-250 A.I.! Nosler 55 gr. Ballistic Tips probably will fill this bill!
I have noticed that real heavy Rifles and real solid rests along with a laser rangefinder and a hand held wind gauge used in conjunction with an accurate (verified) trajectory or drop/wind drift table sure makes the longer shots like you are contemplating more fun and increases success! Look into a Jewell trigger for your Rifle if possible. The less trigger force needed and imparted the better your hit ratio will be at the extended ranges! You might consider an efficient muzzle break for your long heavy barrel Rifle. This will diminish recoil (muzzle jump) and help you spot your own shots thus increasing your odds on followup shots!
Good luck with your project!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I'm wondering if my expectations are to high then, because I'd like to shoot longer than a year and a half on a new barrel. I'm doing about 1,200-1,500 rounds a year through my 243 now with medium velocity loads. (58 grn Vmax @3600 fps) and at least 1,000 223 loads a year.

I'm looking for a 22 caliber round capable of shooting a 75 grn bullet at about 3600 fps for at least 5,000 rounds. Maybe I should be looking at building a 400 yard gun and throttling back.

Since I don't firewall my 243 all of the time I've got close to 10,000 rounds through the barrel counting all of the vMax's, the 75 grn Hornadys and 85 grn Partitions I've shot and it still shoots .75 MOA.

Well, I guess I will have to go against the grain here and recommend a 6mm Remington.

I own and shoot a 22-250 AI improved. I just love it, but for really long range, the 6mm beats it, hands down!

I have shot prairie dogs and ground squirrels with my 22-250 AI at nearly 600 yards and it does good. It is so much of an improvement over my standard 22-250's that it is remarkable.

However, with the 6mm Remington I have shot a mess of prairie dogs at well over 600 yards and some close to 800. It just holds up better for serious long range shooting.

I have a heavy barreled 6mm Remington with a tight neck that is just great for long range varminting. Now understand, it is heavy and you will not want to pack it around a lot. But, it is so very accurate that it is scary and those 6mm bullets at longe range beat the pants off of most 22 caliber bullets. My particular favorite is the Sierra 80 grain Blitz, with the 70 or 80 grain Ballistic Tips a close second.

In regard to barrel life, if you baby them a little any of them will last a resonable length fo time. My 22-250 AI is 10 years old and has more than 4000 rounds down the tube, still shoots about an inch group.

Have fun, R F

I'm going to second R Flowers on this one. I have a 22-250 AI and love it but the 6's probably do a better job at 500 and beyond. For a truly long range dog gun I would opt for a 257 AI or 257 DGR weighing in at around 12 lbs. and throated for 75 or 85 grain bullets.

A friend was frustrated by the wind in Nebraska and built a 50 BMG chambered tripod mounted contraption that he can take the little critters with at really long range. He says the wind is not so much a factor at 500yds. Even a near miss will do.

[ 05-16-2003, 05:42: Message edited by: Dr. Duc ]

I would go with a 6mm also a 243 or 6mm rem with 80 gr or so bullets. Or one of the 25's 250 sav 257 roberts 25 06 the only thing the 6mms hs over the 25s is a better bullet selection.

I had a 22-250AI and the throat started wearing after 700 rounds. So I am having it rebarreld to a 6BR with 1-12 twist to fire 80 grain bullets. I hunted with a friend in montana a we made hits out to 600yards. This gun has shot 2000 rounds and still shoots like it was new.

Heres where the heavy sixes (and I have a bunch of them from standard 243's to 6mm Rems and 6mm Ackley Improved and even a full race custom Varminter in 240 Weatherby!) you are going to have more recoil, more burning powder (more throat erosion and barrel wear)! Plus the 22-250 A.I. will most often be more accurate than the heavy 6's! Now if the original question was BEYOND 500 yards then go for the barrel burners - but our poster wanted a 500 yard Varmint cartridge with long barrel life! I will repeat that long lifed barrel / 500 yard cartridge is the efficient and brass friendly 22-250 A.I.! Check your drop tables for the 55 gr. Nosler B.T. at 3,900 FPS and the drop at 400 yards is only 7.5" below point of aim when sighted in 2.2" high at 200! So that is flat enough for some pretty succesful up to 500 yard Varminting!
I love my big sixes but there is just no way around the increased recoil, muzzle blast and increased throat and barrel wear over the efficient little 22-250 A.I.!.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

fjold, as for barrel life...look at it this way. you are shooting a PD that is about 3 inches wide. basically, at 500 yds, you are looking at 1/2 MOA accuracy. 2000 rounds is about all most high velocity cartridges are good for in a barrel before you will start to see an accuracy loss. especially when you get into the overbore cartridges. i have a 6AI that is very accurate at the 500 yd mark, and the heavy 6 bullets are great, but the recoil and cost over the 22s is a consideration. ive considered boring out a 22-250 to AI for that reason as well.

A five hundred yard varmint gun? What are you planning to shoot with this gun? That would be my first question. Then I would make my first choice from there.

My solution to the 600 yard varmint problem was a 9 twist 223 WSSM. Slightly more capacity than the 250 AI, and the 9 twist stabilizes the 75 Amax and 77 and 80 gr. bullets from JLK.

Very hard to beat that combination for drift! Even a big thirty won't beat it inside 500 yards. FWIW, Dutch.

Thanks for the input guys. I'm shooting ground squirrels on private property and I can pick how far I want to shoot every day.

The reason I'm looking for a high intensity 22 is that I already have a 243. The 243 is an old Savage 110 that I put a Sharpshooter trigger on but it has the original barrel. It will get re-barrelled with a fast twist, heavy barrel once the damn thing stops shooting so well. So I'll have the big 6 that people are recommending and I already have a 223 for the short range.

[ 05-16-2003, 21:47: Message edited by: Fjold ]

Unless your are married to a .224 cal you should be looking at a 6mm. I just had a 6BR Lapua built for just long range P-dog shooting. I went with the 1/8tw but will be shooting the 90gr bullets cause I wanted to make sure I had some speed behind them. I'm getting avg 3090fps with 33gr of V-N540. I will be going to my first live shoot with it in early June. On targets I haven't taken it past 200yds, but have turned in a 8 round 1.43" group that included two fliers that were all me. If those were removed it would have been a .57" group. I've shoot upwards of 20 round strings with nothing more the a warm barrel. The 6BR is a liget 600yd rifle and at 33 gr of powder it's not overbore and can be used for extented strings.

If you are going to be shooting high volume at this size target, i'd opt for the std. .223 Rem. with a faster twist like one of the Savage tactical rifles, with all the accuracy accouterments, and use the cheapest, accurate bullet of 55 gr. or more. This system will go that distance (look at the increased use of the custom AR's for 600 yd. highpower comp's), and of course barrel life would be a concern. I know this seems like an odd choice but the whole secret to shooting at these ranges consistently is a scope capable of providing reference aiming points without guessing. Now if this were a coyote rig, then i would opt for a bigger cartridge as the higher B.C. bullets have all the advantage for ONE shot connections beyond point blank range.

RE155, I'm not discounting the abilities of a fast twist 6BR, but that combination can not touch a tight twist 22 with a 75 amax, 80 or 90 gr. bullets.

A 22/250 AI (or WSSM) with a 75 gr. Amax at 3200 to 3300 fps will beat the drift of any tight twist 6BR combo to past 600 yards. I don't have the numbers of Jimmy Knox's 90 gr. bullet, but I would assume it beats them both. In the end, there is no substitute for cubic inches behind heavy bullets.... JMO, Dutch.

I've got a .308 heavy barrel for long range. Also a 6.5-.284 on order. These should take care of varmints out of range of my .223, and 22-.250.

Now you gave me the info I need to make a smart choice. I have a place I can shoot all the ground squerls I care to. Some times I shoot 600rds in a afternoon of shooting, now that brother is a lot of pure killing fun.My first choice is the 223rem AI , I would also think about buying a Dillion progresive reloading press. Now thats what I call cooking with gas. SSCOYOTE has some good advice re read his post.

It has been a long time since I heard the 22 Cheetah mentioned. Would someone mind refreshing my poor old memory as to the velocity of this round? I seem to recall 4000 or some such figure but that sounds awful high. derf

Derf, around 4300-4400 as I recall with 50 grainers.

500 yd. ground squirrels? .223 or equivalent. Accuracy is more important than velocity at that range and for that target. Any cartridge much bigger will get too hot too quick for sustained fire against the fuzzy yellow hoards. 500 yds. isn't that far anyway. IF wind is a concern get to the point: Any of the 6mm's will work at that range and do a better job than the .22's. The .257 Roberts is better yet. It's hard to beat a Nosler 85 gr Ballistic Tip at 3400-3500 fps. None require wildcatting...but if you want to, that's another story and I'd have another opinion. This one is free by the way...

A 500 yard round needs a bullet of very high SD. I think if one were to get a .22 that would handle bullet weights greater than the normal run of bullets, then one might do well. I would think that you would need bullets in the 60 - 70 grain weights.

I suspect that one of the 6MMs would be superior to the .22s for such long range shooting.

I admit that I am speaking about something which I have not tried.

Jerry

derf
The 22Cheetah case is made from 308 BR brass.It has a slightley smaller case head diameter than standard 308,243 brass.It also happens to be some of the best brass that Rem ever made.It comes in two different versions a Mark I with a 40 degree shoulder and a Mark II with a 28 degree shoulder.
The best and cheepest method for making 22CHeetah cases that I have found is to get with Neil Jones Custom Products and get a replacable bushing die from him.You will need 4 bushing and one die body to squeeze 308 down to 22.
I had Clerance Hammonds of Red Lion Pa build my second Cheetah back in 1991.I set it up as a cruiser weight gun ,heavy varmint stock Stolle action, 1.25 diameter no taper Lilja 1-15 twist barrel,Jewell trigger,Leupold 24x.After I got my first set of cases blown.My top load ended up being 44g of IMR 4064 behind a 52g Berger bullet set off with a CCI-BR small rifle primer.My first serious group over the chronograph measured .253 for six rounds and averaged 4260 fps.
From the standpoint of pure performance.IMHO, Out to 600 yards I dont think you can beat it.

dave

220 Howell. Big case + slooowww powders + low pressures = long barrel life + high velocities.

The AR-15 Highpower contingent has prooved that 80 grainers are all you need out to 600. There are some using them in bolt guns out to 1000.

A 243 on the left, and 220 Howell on the right:

OK, you've activated our collective curiosity, what in the world is a .220 Howell- i'm guessing some sort of hybrid .22-6mm.??

It is a 22 based on a reduced .30-06. It's whole reason for existence is to get high velocities with heavy bullets in a .224 bore, and do so at pressures of 50,000 psi.

Devised by Ken Howell, who was formerly the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines, back when they had real content and no "How to pick up girls" ads...

I do realize one thing now though. That is that the 220 Howell will require a long action. The original post did not mention if the Montana 1999 was long or short. I'm betting it's short, so this cartridge is out.

The following is a quote from Ken, over at the 24 hour campfire

quote:

---

Better than either version of the great old .22-.250 or even the factory or "improved" Swift is the .220 Howell with an 8-inch twist (in an ordinary barrel) or a 9-inch twist (in a superior barrel) -- from which you can send 75-grain Hornady A-Maxes and 80-grain Sierras on their way at 3,500 to 3,600 ft/sec at moderate pressures, faster at higher pressures -- and lighter bullets faster still.

But ignore the lighter bullets -- the 75- and 80-gr bullets with their higher ballistic coefficients retain their velocities better and shoot flatter. They're also going faster than the lighter bullets at ranges approaching and exceeding 200 yards.

Form your cases from .25-06s or .270s necked-down and shortened to 2.400 inches and load 'em with Ramshot Magnum or IMR 7828 powder (loads in the neighborhood of fifty grains). You'll never again look back on the classic, proven, superb .22-.250s and .220 Swift with the same awe and longing. I have two .220 Howells and wouldn't mind having a third cluttering-up the place.

---

Regards,
Scott

All you need is a 224tth.
Real simple to make neck down 6mm to 224 cal. Redding sells the dies just one pass. Use 47-105 gr bullets about 3500-3900 fps low pressure and recoil. Thats using a 28" barrel with a 1 in 8 twist.

Happy hunting

[ 05-19-2003, 10:36: Message edited by: CoonDawg ]

Coondawg, the case capacity of the TTH is 54 gr. of water. The case capacity of the new 223WSSM is 54 grains of water. Why go with the expense and hassle of wildcat? The 220 Howell has significantly more capacity than either, and fills a niche. JMO, Dutch.

This is one case where I believe the wildcat (.22/6mm ) would be easier to live with than the factory .223 WSSM . Due to action fit and feeding issues . Also likely cost of the brass....

I also believe Ken has said a .22/6mm would equal the speed of his .220 Howell loads , IF you load it up to the 60000 psi range .........

SDGUNSLINGER you took the words right out of my mouth or in this case from my keyboard.

Dutch I never shot a round with water in it.
I understand what you are saying but if you already have a 6mm then you don't have to buy a new gun

Gunslinger, so far, my WSSM feeds without flaw. Brass is a not that expensive, and in any case a lot cheaper than than 6 rem brass plus the bullet and barrel wear of fireforming. But, that's jmo, Dutch.

A Prairie Dog hunting Buddy of mine has a 6mm-284 that is awesome out to 500 yards and he has got good barrel life, but he does not let it heat up so that it will burn you to touch the barrel.

I don't yet have a varmint rifle built, and I was thinking a .224 Clark, why doesn't anybody here like that one? The gunshop I go to was where I heard about it, they bought the original reamers from the wife of the guy that developed it after he died. It is a .257 Roberts necked down, use a barrel with a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 twist with 80-85 grain bullets. Anybody own or have owned one of these?

Red

Dago, both the Roberts and the 6mm Rem are versions of the original 8mm mauser case. So, in essense, it seems folks seem to like it just fine, here! 6mm rem brass is a little easier to come by, and necking down from .243 to .224 is a cinch. If I would be asked to venture a guess it would be that the Clark was developed before the 6Rem case was introduced. FWIW, Dutch.

Try this web-site Richardscustom rifles.com he will build a 6mm ackley imp and it is by far the best Chuck gun I ever shot. You will not be disapointed.You can shoot 500 plus yards without a problem. Scott

Thanks Dutch. I plan on building the clark some day and will check into the 6mm brass versus starting with the .257.

Red

I believe the Dago Red is on the right track. I have owned a .224 Clark for the last 15 years, and their performance is terrific.

The .224 Clark (22/257 Roberts imp) will drive the 69 grain Sierra to 3,900 fps, 75 grain Hornady Amax to 3,800 fps, and 80 grain Sierra HPBT to 3,700 fps. I didn't have the bullets to test, but judging from the above velocities, I would assume that it could drive JLK's 90 grain VLD (BC.589) to about 3,500 - 3550 fps.

After 1500 rounds through the barrel, the throat had eroded about .250 inches, velocity was down 100 fps, accuracy had deteriorated, but was acceptable at around .75 moa.

The barrel life of the .224 Clark, and throat erosion was very similar to what I experienced in the .22/250, 22/250 AI, 220 Swift, 220 Swift AI, 22/284, .17/222 mag imp, 25/06 AI, and 7mm Rem Magnum that I have owned.

I believe that any 224 centrefire with a case capacity of the 22/250 or larger is not suitable for firing multiple shots in a short period of time. The heat builds up very quickly, and the throat will be progressively damaged.

I have just had the existing 25.25 inch Shilen SS barrel in my .224 Clark rechambered to the .22/250 AI 28, which reduced the barrel to 24.5 inches, and eliminated the worn throat.

Although I have fired only 50 shots in the 22/250 AI, the difference in performance between the 2 cases with the same bullet weight is staggering.

In the .224 Clark, 54.5 grains IMR 7828 would drive the 69 grain Sierra to 3,930 fps, while in the 22/250 AI, 44.0 grains of H4831sc drives the 69 Sierra to 3305 fps. This dramatically illustrates the advantage of the larger cases with heavier bullets.

I intend to build another .224 Clark, but this time I will use a long action Remington 700 action instead of the medium length action. I found that as I chased the lands as the throat eroded, once the loaded length exceeded around 2.900 inches, I experienced feeding difficulties from the magazine. Regards, Brian.

Brian, just to anchor your experience with the 223 WSSM, the new Hornady manual (why do they make you buy both volumes, anyway?) lists the 223 WSSM and the 75 gr. Amax at 3500 fps.

Generally, it is not unusual for people to run wildcats a little "warmer" than the manual.

As far as throat erosion goes, holding pressure down, as well as the temperature, is supposed to greatly extend barrel life (the design premis of the 220 Howell). I'll keep my WSSM to 3200 or 3300 fps, and see if that is true . Dutch.