I've spent a couple of afternoons in the field with some fellow varminters this week. I used my .223, my .243, and my .270. My acquaintances were mostly shooting .223's, using 40 grain ballistic tips and 55 grain spitzer soft points.

The groundhogs are out in force this year, the last couple of years made me think they were going extinct.

We shot about fourteen from two different pastures a farmer wanted cleaned up. The animals ranged in size from fairly young to adult.

No shots were taken inside 200 yards, with the average shot being about 225 yards.

Of note: The .223's were *not* killing--except in one case--immediately. When hit at ranges in the vicinity of 200 yards with either the 40 grain ballistic tipped bullets (pushed by the max of 28 grains of W748) or the 55 grain Speer soft points (don't know the charge on that load, but I know the shooter so it's safe to assume it was "stoked") these groundhogs were crawling back to thier holes.

There was also one good hit from a Sendero 22-250, shooting the Hornady 40 grain VX (V-Max) ammo at 335 yards. But the animal got to his feet and crawled into his hole.

I connected with my .243 (Remington 788, 22" barrel) using an 85 grain Sierra BTHP, pushed by 36.5 grains of Varget. Range was 230 yards. That one was didn't even twitch, he was dead on arrival (of the bullet )...

I was trajectory testing with my Winchester Model 70 .270, and saved getting it out until almost dark. An unwary groundhog popped up at a lasered 385 yards. The first shot went over him, but my second connected. The load was 60 grains of H4831 pushing a Hornady 130 grain interlock. Velocity at the muzzle was a little over 3100 fps...

That groundhog was blown literally in half, attached only by his hide. I didn't expect that kind of terminal performance from the soft-pointed interlock on a varmint. I hope these bullets will penetrate adequately this fall...

Anyway, I'm less of the opinion now that the .223 is adequate for groundhogs at 200 yard ranges. Yes, they die, but not as a rule instantly. Further, if the example of the 40 grain 22-250 is any indication of that cartridge's performance on groundhogs at 300 yards, I think that 50 or 55 grain bullets are called for. We found the groundhog that had been hit in that scenario after he'd crawled back out of his hole (perhaps to dial 911? ) and died. There was no exit wound (as expected), and no blood. To all appearances the critter could have died of old age!

Anyway, I'm contemplating dedicating a beater Savage .270 to varminting, for the reasons mentioned herein. We don't take repeated shots at varmints in this part of America, so barrel heating and recoil issues are of no concern.

If I were heading to the prarie to dog shoot, I believe the .22-250 and .223 are king and queen, and I'd hope to have one of each. But for groundhogs in the eastern U.S. at ranges beyond 200 yards, I wonder if a heavier hitter isn't called for.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Dan,

I have shot a lot of woodchucks. Most of them with the .222R as that's all I had besides regular hunting rifles. Back then we did not have the 40gr bullets in .224" with the good Ci's and I used the 50 and 55 gr Sierra Spitzers and got results like you describe from the .223's and 40 gr bullets. Then the Sierra Blitz and Hornady SX's came out and they were designed for the lower velocity of the .222. They worked a little better and I stayed with them. Although I am a Sierra fan the Hornady worked very well and was accurate also. But your very observant that it's killing power that counts and the .223 lacks it. However many promote it on deer. I think it's the lack of witnesses in game hunting!

The longest kill that I ever made with the .222R was 295 paces. I made three of them and I wished that I could type that they were 300 yards but they were not. Now a kill to me means that the chuck does not make it out of sight into it's den.

Then I got a M-70 Varmint rifle in .243 Win. This has lots of power even at long range. Long range to me is maybe 400 yards to 600 yards. Some shoot at over 1000 yards and I defer to them. I just don't like to wound them.

But I also had 30/06's, a 264 Win Mag with a 1-12 twist and a 7mm Rem Mag for this. I am sure the .270 would compete with any of these except maybe the 30/06 for splatter effect at short range. One of the most devestating kills I ever saw was with my 7mm Mag and 140 gr Nosler Partitions at 375 yards.

The big calibers kick too hard for me to enjoy much chuck shooting. Once the skin is gone from your elbow or your black and blue like I was you might go back to the 6mm's but it's fun to try out a game rifle on chucks but I would not build one for the purpose. That's why I sold the .264 and it was accurate too.

Don't forget that almost any cartridge in .224 can be made to have less report with a reduced load. Those 40 gr bullets are good for that up to at least 100 yards and very accurate too. I use them for off hand shots.

I got away from the .222R when my buddies got 22-250's and Swifts. I don't think anyone wants it to be their turn to shoot and hear "use my rifle, that ones kind of far out". I was lucky to find a .219 Improved Zipper on a very fine High Wall years ago. That's my favorite chuck rifle.

Darn it I should have read Green's post carefully and then I could have typed 390 yards for my 7mm Mag splatter. Naw I can't do that. Maybe my paces are over 36"! Yea that's it.

I am going to shop for a laser range finder. That always was a limit for me as it's very hard to judge distance when it's way out there.

As far as that interlock not holding up, I don't think you can draw that conclusion.

I shot a cat last year on the way to deer hunting, and had a GS custom (solid copper) up the pipe. Same results as with your chuck, picking up the pieces. IOW, just because the critter falls apart, doesn't mean the bullet did. FWIW, Dutch.

Dan, I'm with ya on the .270 for chucks. Back in the early 80's I was using a 6mm Rem, with 80gr. power lock hollow points and had excellent results out 350 yards. Then I switched to a 22-250 for one season and worked well with 55 grainers. The last few seasons that I had gone chuck hunting I used a .270 with 130 gr. spirepoints. Thats when I realized the .270 was secretly designed for big fat eastern woodchucks!

Hello Guys

Well for most of my varmint hunting around here I have used my .243 Win, now around here we shoot Jackal , dassie , lynx , etx for fun over weekends . For shorter ranges under 150 yds I use my .22 H quite fine, and I have blown dassies in half under a 150 yds with those 35 gr V-maxes . I am building a Mauser actioned .22-250 with a Wilson medium profile barrel , all these nested inside a lovely walnut stock ( i am still a sucker for nice wood ) . Don I am the same as soon as I have to guestimate over 200 yds, thats why I bought myself a Bushnell yardage pro 800 , one of the best investments I made since my first gun .

Regards
Rudie

We shoot rabbits here in Aus and probably the most popular Varmint caliber here is the 22/250. Excellent fox round as well.

GREEN788, I've been using the Sierra 85 grain HPBT in my 243's for as long as I can remember. It does just as good a job on whitetails as it does on G'Hogs. When you use only one bullet for everything, it keeps it simple and you really get to know the capabilities of your gun. Happy Hunting, BEN243

couldn't have said it better myself ben243 that bullet makes the .243 a real killer if a ground hog can with stand that he needs to be on robot wars, and its quite the cats meow on these north carolina whitetails

The 85 gr Sierra HP is a poor varmint bullet. The BC is only .279 (thats a really poor ballistic coefficient) and it would be more prone to richocets also.

The Sierra 80 Spitzer BT has a far higher BC and of course will also be going faster.

We went over that 85 HP for deer. There are much better choices in 6mm than that bullet.

Don,

You're correct that the 80 grain Sierra is a better long range bullet than the 85 grain HPBT, this according to a Sierra tech I spoke to recently.

I told him I was having good results with the 85's, and he didn't recommend a change on that basis.

I've learned the trajectory of my .243 with the 85 grainers, and have hold-over data on my scope's objective bell. I've not shot anything other than targets at ranges beyond about 300 yards with these bullets.

It's interesting to note that Sierra has changed the nomenclature on the 85 grain BTHPs from "Varminter" to "Gameking."

In any event, I've had such good results from the 85's that I'll probably stay with them--if for no other reason than they are, as you suggest, decent on deer sized game.

Dan Newberry
green 788

guys you keep reading this bc stuff and until you apply it to twenty pound beavers swimming across a pond you see the real deal and if you can shoot there are not any better choices than the 85 grain game king it puts whitetails down on the spot, i know ballistic coefficient is great but when you have a pin hole on one side of deer's neck and a fist sized whole one the other who needs anything else, not trying to knock anybody but that bullet is king on stopping power on any thing from wild dogs to beavers and deer

I have a Ruger #1V rebarrelled in a 221 Fireball. I use 50 gr Sierra Blitzking bullets with 18.4 gr of RL-7. Velocity measured by my Oehler 35P is around 3100 fps. JD Jones throated the chamber long. I have never had a woodchuck fail to be stopped in his tracks by that bullet. Last year, I even shot one 352 long steps away. I also was using the 50 gr Hornady V-Max but the tails would go bananas for about 30 seconds or so. I would suggest you try the Sierra Blitzkings, a most excellent bullet.

Don29 and All,

I shoot both the 85HPBT and the 80SPBT in my 6mm and I feel both are excellent woodchuck bullets. Yes the 80gr has a higher BC than the 85, 319 compared to 282, but how much difference does that really make. Here are the trajectory figures for my 6mm with both bullets sighted dead on at 225yds:
80SPBT
300yds: -4.59
350yds: -8.87
400yds: -14.99
450yds: -24.81
500yds: -32.50

85HPBT
300yds: -4.32
350yds: -9.54
400yds: -16.22
450yds: -22.84
500yds: -35.45

As you can see at 500yds there is almost three inches difference which to me is not a whole heck of a lot at that distance and at closer distances there is of course less difference! If I can hold that difference in holdover at 500yds it would be a miracle. Yes I like the 80SPBT bullet for woodchucks as it as accurate as the 85HPBT in my rifle and it is explosive, but for an all around bullet I personally prefer the 85HPBT. As an aside I also shoot the 75HP at times which has a lesser BC than either of the others but I also like it for woodchuck hunting and I never have experienced any ricochets with any of these bullets.

Good Hunting,
George

[ 06-01-2002, 16:22: Message edited by: George Foster ]

George Foster,

My data is wrong in the copy of "LoadBase" that I have. It shows a 6mm Sierra 80 gr bullet with a Ci of .388 which I assumed was the 80 gr Blitz but it's not. The coefficients are as you have stated and of course there is not that big a difference.

My experiance with the .243 on varmints is that almost any bullet is very effective as compared to the smaller cased .224's which run out of steam unless they are out of a Swift etc.

As stated above the 75 gr hollow point is also very effective.

In a thread someone mentioned that the 70 gr Blitz King with it's Ci of .321 and higher velocity is perhaps the best varmint bullet. It's cost is about $.02 more than similar bullets which is not out of line.

Don,

I couldn't agree with you more on all the statements that you made in your post. I shot a 222 when I was a teenager for woodchucks and would love to have the rifle now. But the reason I use the 243 and 6mm is I believe they are better all around varmint rifles and I also use them for my deer hunting.

I have shot some 70gr Speer TNTs out of my 6mm but I couldn't get the accuracy with them that I do with the heavier bullets so I gave up on them. I may well take your advice and give the Sierra 70s a try one of these days.

Good Shooting,
George

Three very good cartridges. My wife and I shoot 50 grain Speer TNT w/i 27.0 gr of IMR 4064 in WW case and CCI BR primer in our 223's, very accurate and deadly. Don't have a 243 but do have a 6mm and shoot 87gr Hornady SP (it won't shoot boattails!!!???) 47.5 gr H-4831 ww case and Fed BR primer and a 6mm Ackley with a 28 1/2" barrel and the Hornady 87gr V-Max w/i ww case on 49.5 gr of R-19 and Fed BR primer. Late in the year we use 270's with Harnady 110 V-Max, WW case on top of 58.5 gr H-4831 and Fed BR primer, only use these when the coyotes are rubbing and no need to keep the pelt i.e. January & February. We don't think one is better, we think they are all the best for what they each were designed to do. You have a great cartridge in the 223 and a big brother in the 6mm's and the bigger brother in the 270. They work for us. But would the 220 Swift-25/284 & 300 Weatherby work better maybe maybe not but if you like them use them it's ok by me. Good Shooting! "Z"

223 with 40 grn V-max. last year I shot 217 eastern woodchucks from ranges of 85yards to 375 yards. Every chuck I shot, but 2 died where they were shot. One chuck I mis-judged the range and hit him low, He made it to his hole dying ass up. the second chuck got a mohawk haircut. I found the 40 grn V-Max to be deadly on ground hogs. And A friend of mine who told me to shoot them instead of the 50 and 52 grn bullets, uses the 40 V-Max for coyote and has never lost one. Hell I have killed many coyote with a 17 Ackley hornet, just know your guns limitations. For me the 223 with 40grn V-Max is my best varmint load for woodchucks and up to coyotes out to 300 yards.

Frank, my man.

What is your load in that 223? Seating, primer, powder, cases, how many scratches on the cases, the whole ball of wax. I'm just starting to wring out a NEF 223 22" Hvy barrel and your load sounds VERRRRRY INTERESTING. I have an even dozen targets done and a dozen to do tomorrow and H335, Varget and AA2230 so far are the prime contenders. H4895 is also looking good.

Thanks
Makatak

Gunga, I'll let you in on one of the best-kept secrets in loading the 223 (when I did)... AA2460 and a 50 gr. bullet. In my 22" bbl. I got 3,550 fps with either a 50 gr V-Max or B-Tip. That's about 100 fps faster than the next best which was Varget. Accuracy was outstanding and the pressures must have been fine as the cases rolled right out of the chamber, the primers were still rounded at the endges, no ejector cut-out marks and plenty of brass longevity... don't tell anyone!

BA

Some months ago I read an article on developing ammo for long distance hunting. They compared different calibres, different bullet shapes and weights etc.

Obviously, up to a point, the bigger calibres do better and bullet shape has a very big influence.

The bigger calibres retain velocity better than the smaller ones, and although the starting velocity might be less, it is actualy the downrange velocity that makes the difference.

A spitzer will also retain its velocity better than a roundnose. Boattails are normally longer than flat based spitzers, and in some calibres limit powder capacity - less powder = less velocity.

It also showed that wind drift is more of a problem with the smaller calibres.

I had a look at the factory balistics of the 223, 22-250, 243 and 270 and that shows the 2 bigger ones to be streets ahead at ranges exceeding 200m. You can improve on the factory balistics of the smaller calibres, but I would say that you have more room for improvement on the bigger ones.

Returning to the original question, I would say that the 243 and 270 would be better varminting calibres. Because the 243 has less recoil than the 270 I would select it for varminting. If I wanted to shoot bigger animals, like smaller antelope, over longer distances as well, I would select the 270.

I suppose the groundhogs in this part of the country are a lot tougher than woodchucks in other parts of America. There is simply no way a 22-250 shooting 40 grainers can stop these animals reliably at ranges beyond 300 yards, so I'm certain that 40 grainers from the .223 would fair much worse.

I guess these things are just tough...

If you have a rifle that is doing what you require of it without mortally wounding animals, then there's no reason to change.

I'm looking into the 25-06 as a long range varminter, and will continue to use my .270. Practicing on varmints at 400 yard ranges with my big game rifles is good off season practice, and instills confidence when long shots on larger game present themselves.

I'm noting a couple of loads in 25-06 that, when zeroed at 300 yards, hit 3 inches high at 100 and 200 yards, and only drop about 8 inches at 400 yards. In my opinion, that's where it's at--and the payload at long range is formidable.

I don't see much difference between the 25-06 and the .270, but I've seen a good price on an old Ruger heavy barrel with Timney trigger (375 bucks) and am contemplating trading for it and giving it a try.

I'll continue to use the .243 (shooting 85 grain Sierra BTHP's) on groundhogs, probably as my main varminting rifle. The recoil is mild, and the bullet is very effective.

As for my .223, I'll continue to enjoy shooting it at perhaps ground squirrels, pigeons, and black birds. And at groundhogs inside about 125 to 150 yards...

Dan Newberry
green 788

I live in SW Michigan and have used a 22-250 for the last 3 years on woodchucks while using the 40 gr V-MAX. I've shot them from 5 yds to my all time long, 582yds. I've only attempted 2 shots past 400 (487&582) and killed both varmints with one shot, I think if you do enough shooting and know your rifle you can make shots at longer distances. A heavier bullet helps but I haven't had a problem. I've made many many many shots over 300 and all have just collapsed right there. I don't think I'll change from my 40's until I find that there is a problem. Safe shooting Martin

Maybe you guys can answer a .270 Q for me.

When I first got mine (early 90's) I tried out 100, 110 and 130 grain handloads. I later switched to a 150 gr handload for game because we had a lot of bears locally. Around that time I read that the "little" bullets in .270 were not cost effective because they were too short for accurate long range shooting, so I just let them slide. Another reason I backed off the small fast bullets was bbl wear. I read that mv's of over 3000 fps drastically reduced bbl life - with the 3000 fps mv being a good bench mark.

What do you guys think about the small (90-100-110 gr) .270 bullets for accuracy past 200 yds, and the 3000 fps benchmark for bbl wear?

For a given calibre the heavier bullets have more sectional density and a better balistic coeffient, resulting in more retained velocity over a long distance. This retained velocity will mean less bullet drop after, say, 200m. The heavier bullets also drift less in the wind.

The shape and weight of the bullet should also be suited to the rate of twist in the barrel, otherwise it will not stabilise properly.

These are just some of the factors that influence accuracy.

I do not think that 3000 is a magic figure - it could even be less. Any load corrodes the barrel. But, the hotter loads tend to be more corrosive.

I'm going to go with Green 788 on this one. For the eastern woodchuck(groundhog) the 25-06 is king as far as I'm concerned. I just bought mine this year and am still working on long range loads but I've been using factory Federal rounds with a 90 gr hp. I've only shot 4 groundhogs so far(all that I've seen) but all four are now eating at the groundhog pasture in the sky. Two were nearly ripped in half and the other two were simply pencil-holed, but not one of them even twitched after they were hit.

The .270 is an underrated varmint gun. I used to live in South Dakota, a state that has more prarie dogs than people. My only rifle at the time was a Ruger No. 1 .270 and it was an awesome killer on P-dogs Jackrabbits and Coyotes. Out to 400 yds a solid hit with the .270 will explode a P-dog, mangle a Jack and put a grapefruit sized hole in a coyote. Plus all of the varminting with a deer rifle gets the shooting skills very well tuned for deer and antelope season. All I ever loaded in that rifle was 130 gr speer spirepoints with 56 gr of IMR 4350. The only drawback on P-dogs is the recoil get bothersome after a few hundred rounds.

I started out chuck hunting with a 7MM Rem Mag and 160 Sierra GameKings - my deer load. I probably killed several hundred of 'em with it out to 425 yards or so before I bought a .223.

I had a lot of trouble with the .223 anchoring 'em with any 50 or 55 grain bullet when the range was much over 175 yards, then I tried the 40 grain V-Max. Whoa! Whole 'nuther story. Terminal performance was much better than expected. At the same time I got to playing with 75 and 85 grainers in my .25-06 on both groundhogs and rockchucks. Then about six years ago I started using 100 Nosler BTs in the .25. Now when I go looking for chucks I take along the .223 for shots under 200 yards. Anything more and I get out the ol' .25.

Longest one shot kill so far; Laser measured 813 yards.

Lots of great posts...

I personally like the 223 for woodchucks and with 55gr Hornady v-max works great. Heck, works great on coyotes too. Depends largely on equipment and the shooter as to the practical range limitations you have and ballistics to know what kind of energy you have left downrange at impact.. 300+ ft. lbs of energy is more than enough to knock chucks on their butt. Amount of energy will also determine how well a bullet not only penetrates but how well it expands... keep this in mind. This is where your heavier bullets will typically perform better at the longer ranges.

Vs. 22-250?.... Out to 250+ yards the 223 has an edge on accuracy, but the higher velocity out of a 22-250 will give it better energy downrange at 300+ yards.

Other reason I like the 223, is I have a Custom mini-14 Ranch rifle and it saves on reloading/ammo costs.

During deer season, its fun to watch chucks and coyotes literally explode when hit with a 160gr Nosler Partition from a 7mm Rem Mag.. Just not practical to shooting all day..

Good luck.

I like the 22-250 we used it out to 400yds Pdog and ground hog. I have not used my 243 for varmint hunting it should do good with the 55gr bullets they have out now. My 270 Win I will try this year I will be shooting a 90gr Sierra at 3500 fps. I just put a 6x24 power scope on it for varmint hunting.

Im wondering if the longer range velocities of a 223 are borderline for effective explosivness that most varmint bullets are designed for. If so then perhaps some muzzle velocities could help explain the greatly varrying results reported in this thread.

Anyone here tried long range (200+ yds) yotes or chucks with a 223 and a heavier sp type bullet? Say something in a 65-70 grain? Maybe that would equate to some better killing power at range more suitable to its moderate velocities. It works with larger calibers..

[ 06-20-2002, 06:38: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Wow! How big are these groundhogs? I've shot hundreds of "ground squirrels" at an average measured range of 200 to 225 yds with my 222 using 50 gr Blitz or 52 Gr HP Sierra and all they do is get cut in half! I have a 22-243 Middlestead that sounds perfect for your groundhogs. Shoots a 70 gr Berger at 3500 fps in a 27" Shilen bull barrel. Not a lugging around gun but dynamite from a field bench! I now live in OR and we have thousands of Beldan ground squirrels called "sage rats". Mike in OR

The adult groundhogs in this part of Virginia are about 8 pounds in the spring, and can weigh around 15 pounds or more by late summer.

Imagine a Dacshund (sp?) "weiner dog" and you'll have an idea of their relative size. Many don't grow to be as large as they might, due to the fact that they are hunted pretty regularly. You often see them living along the interstate or in other areas where they are not going to be shot at, and these are some of the biggest you'll see anywhere. I'd say the average weight of the ones I've taken is around 10 pounds.

The .22-243 would do very nicely indeed. I've shot the 70 grain Nosler BT's in my .243 Win at around 3400 fps, and it does quite well.

The .223 (and .222) can be effective at ranges inside 200 yards, but beyond that you would be risking mortal injury, and allowing the animal to make it back to his den to die slowly. A lot of times you'll have hit the animal, but the fact that he goes back underground keeps you from realizing this.

I'm currently accurizing a Remington 700 in 30-06 which I plan to try out on a distant groundhog sometime in the coming weeks. I'm guessing that the 165 grain Gamekings (Sierra) will deliver the goods at any range I'm likely to connect at!

Dan Newberry
green 788

Here is some more information on the Eastern Woodchuck. The difficulty in getting them at long range is that you can't be sure to hit them in a "vital" spot at anything over about 150 yards. If your hunting with a .22LR and just using HiSpeed Hollow Points a head shot will do it out to near 75 but when you are shooting at a vital area of maybe 3" or so at 200 yards most shots no matter what the rifle tend to be the center of mass and that's the gut's which is a rather large target.

But if they are hit at about 250 to 300 yards with a weak caliber like the .222 Rem they may make it back to their den and be out of sight. This situation is not a good thing. You can't count it as a bagged chuck and in fact it's nothing to be proud of. This animal is very strong.

Therefor the 22-250 and .220 Swift were the cartridges of choice for long range chuck shooting up to sometimes 400 yards.

This animal is very hard to kill. Trust me. It's nothing like hitting a red fox or some weak animal like that. You really have to splatter them at long range to have a good day.

The bigger calibers will carry even further.

Thanks for the post, Don.

I think that the .22's (even the Swift and the 250) are out of their leagues beyond about 300 yards on these animals. Prarie dogs, yes... not groundhogs.

The .243's seem to work well to 400. I've not connected on one with my .270 beyond 400 yet, but a friend hit one at 490 yards with a 25-06 (90 grain bullet) and took him out pronto.

I hit a smallish one yesterday at 340 yards with the 130 grain Hornady Interlock from my .270. He had a golf ball sized exit wound and was of course stopped immediately. The one I hit at near 400 yards a couple of weeks ago was actually torn up more than the closer ones normally are. I suppose the bullet has slowed enough to take a tumble on impact at that range--especially the flat based Hornady. That groundhog was split in two pieces, hanging only by the fur...

Dan Newberry
green 788

[ 06-24-2002, 07:35: Message edited by: green 788 ]