I'm looking for a simple gun to leave under the back seat in my pick-up truck that will be there whenever I need to pop a varmit that I might see when riding around my farm. I probably will leave it unscoped, so I need one that would be accurate using just iron sites, but will not be a collectors item in case it somehow got legs and left my truck. Probably something in the $500 +- area.
Have any suggestions?

Get yourself a handi-rifle. Although not a semi-auto it is cheap accurate and dependable, it will take a lot of abuse and still shoot and not jam.
Mike

My recommendation would be the new model Ruger Mini 14. My understanding is that these are more accurate than the previous models. I have the older model and it groups 3 to 4" at 100 yards. The rifle takes a beating and keeps on ticking. It is short in length and handles very nicely. You can use a 5 shot magazine all the way up to a 100 round magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by Spring:
I'm looking for a simple gun to leave under the back seat in my pick-up truck that will be there whenever I need to pop a varmit that I might see when riding around my farm. I probably will leave it unscoped, so I need one that would be accurate using just iron sites, but will not be a collectors item in case it somehow got legs and left my truck. Probably something in the $500 +- area.
Have any suggestions?

Yeah Vic, design and build a SA with the above requirements and you will be able to buy ten farms to ride around on....

I haven't heard any reports on the new Ruger, (ref. recoilpad) but from my experience they needed a lot of improvement in accuracy.

The AR-15 is above your price limit and will no doubt "get legs", but they have the most accuracy potential and the best iron sights available IMO.

I saw a SA 223 at my gunsmiths place a couple of weeks ago. He was shooting it and wanted to show it to me but I had other things to do and I can't recall what the make of it was. It was an assault rifle platform and I believe it was in your price range. I am heading over there after work and will ask him for further info and get back to you.

Jim

That Mini-14 might just be what I need. I have an older AR-15 that was converted to full auto and I do like its design. I'm not sure if I could as easily slip something like that under the seat and it not be noticeable.
So what is it about the newer model of the Mini-14 that gives it a better reputation for accuracy?

If i were to do that i would go with a stevens 223 and put a weaver 1-3 on it. Fast quick accurate and cheep.

To answer my own question, I see where Ruger upgraded the gun starting in 2005. They are priced about $60 over the older models, but it sounds like they may be worth it.

I'd do the Steven's also. I don't bother to work up loads for my Mini 14 anymore. It'd be a 50/50 chance on hitting a Chuck at 100 yds. with it. There great little rifles for other reasons, accuracy is not one of'm. Hopefully the new models are better, I'd to some research first before droping $5-600.00.

In your price range for a S.Auto I'd do some sort of AR, Complete Stag lower, look for a used complete upper.

You can get the steavens for about $250 if you look hard enough and put the weaver 1-3 on it for about 150$. add in bases and rings an that rig is far less than 500$ and you will be able to aquire targets just as easy as open sights and be about to hit alot more of those targe as well.

Vic,

I found some info on Kel-tec. They make three models of 223 rifle.

Kel-Tec

Not sure if the following will give you more but here it is anyhow. You will have to cut and paste this one.

www.ktog.org

Good luck.

Jim

Jim,
That Kel Tec does sound interesting. Have insight into its accuracy? I also like the fact that it uses the same magazines as an AR-15, which I already have several of.
Is this the gun you have in mind?

Vic,

Thats it. I am wondering about the accuracy also.

I am not sure of the model my gunsmith buddy has, and I wasn't able to look at it last night as he was spending time with someone that was spending several thousand dollars. Still, he shouldn't have ignored me just for that.....

Anyhow, how quickly do you want to move on this. The reason why is I could borrow his and shoot it and give you some kind of report. The earliest I could get back to you though would be next tuesday.

Jim

Jim,
I can certainly be patient, especially if you were kind enough to offer me some personal insight into the gun. The absolute soonest I would buy it would be late next week as I will be driving near the spot in Georgia that has the best deals on guns in the state. Even then, I could wait if it would help out my selection process. Thank you so much for your help in that effort.
Interestly, I called the manufactuer of these guns down in Florida. He said that in the "CA" model, which he said has the best sights (AR-15 type), about 70-80% shoot one-inch groups out of the box. He indicated with the kind of sights the CA model has, sight adjustment is not difficult. Think that claim could be right?

Vic,

I don't think it will be any problem to get you some info by tuesday. Have a nice weekend.



Jim

Edited: Well, I asked Mike how the thing shot and he said he thought about a 1 inch group. I would really like to see for myself.

At the moment it looks like taking the time to hear of your range results should not be a problem. The gun dealers I've checked with say the "CA" model is on backorder. I'll be looking forward to hearing about your range results and opinion.
Thanks, Jim.

Save your money and go with the AR platform. There are many parts, you can check out AR15.com for a used bushmaster varminter or go with a stag lower for around 100 and a model 1 sales 24"heavy barrel parts kit for around 500.

MOdel 1 sales 24" kit



I think they are well worth the money, the model 1 sales heavy barrel upper i see consistently shoot sub MOA at 100. You can also go with the stag lower and the 24" "tactical" parts kit from model 1 sales in 6.8SPC you can shoot 110GR V-MAx bullets, or 90gr TNT. Now that would be a really nice varmint combo.

6.8 SPC kit



For a scope i would consider the nikon buckmaster 4.5-14x with slide forus. Ive heard good things about these. There are alot of other choice like the New burris fullfield 2 tactical, weaver V-16, and many good scope for around 400. For Rings get TPS 1" or 30mm depending on what kind of scope you get and dont forget about a scope base, id go with TPS. They are the most affordable and best for the money.

Adam,
I looked at that AR15 web site you mentioned. There's certainly a lot of buy/sell activity on their forum. My problem is that I don't know enough about the AR15s to get one at this point. Seems there are lots of options--preban, Bushmaster sporter, Sporter match, tactical, match target, Colt CAR A-3, ect, ect.
If I bought an AR, I'm sure I'd want a Colt that would be ready to go with high accuracy. My only reason for saying I wanted to keep this purchase around $500-$600 was because the gun would might stay in my truck a good bit. But if the AR is a better rifle, I would have no problem with going in that direction. Seems many of the AR's are going for around $850.
Looking at the AR15 site, some guns get jumped all over by buyers and others seem to just sit there. Obviously the infomed AR buyers know what to look for--I don't fall in that category. How would you suggest I get started and what should I look for to find a quality AR-15?

Most of my AR15s shoot 1.4 moa agg.
Most of my military bolt guns shoot 6 moa agg.

The big part of why that happens is the ratio of the rifle weight to bullet weight.

The thing I watch out for is AR15s with fast twist rates [ 9" and less] and large 5.56 nato chambers. The slow twist rates [ 12"] and .223 SAMMI chambers are better, but usually come only with heavy barrels. Some old Colt AR15s are light.

Ok this is what id recomend look at AR15.com for a buy on a lower, its the reciever, the only part that is FFLed. Prolly get a mega, stag arms or something of that sort. They can be had in the free states (i live in CA and cant get one for under 250) But in the free states you can get one for 99.99 and FFL dros or whatever they call it., so about 125-140 depending on were and who you goto. Then i recomend Model 1 sales ive heard good things about the varmint setups i list for you on the previous post.

Eather this one:

or this one:

I myself in a few months will be getting the 24" Tactical Rifle kit in 6.8 SPC, i will choose 6.8SPC because it takes 277cal bullets and seems to give good balistics and good knock down power. I would shoot 110gr V-Max or 90gr TNT and that would make one hell of a Varmint rifle, And definutly a tack driver. If you can try to get the YHM 4 rail hand guard it should improve accuracy (so im told) by making the rifle more free floated. Also 6.8spc has its own magazine setups that can be used in any Arlower. If you have any more questions or anything please feel free to email me at adam5432002@yahoo.com or PM me.

Vic,

I have the Kel-tec at my place and will shoot it on Sunday or Monday and get back to you on Tuesday with some results.

My opinion is go with the AR also, but I feel like you, I would not want that thing to get legs.

I am at my parents place this moment and we are celebrating some very good news.

My wife and I were just given the news today by the doctors that she is cancer free after undergoing chemo treatments for the last several months for lymphoma. I can't tell you how happy we all are.

It has been a very "good Friday".

Jim

Jim,
That is such great news about your wife! No doubt the two of you have been through a lot over the last year and to get this wonderful report, I'm sure, is such a relief.
Checking out the Kel-tec seems quite trivial compared to other things going on with you this weekend, but I'm still looking forward to your thoughts after you play with it for a while.

My truck gun is a NEF in 22 K Hornet with 35 gr V-Max, but if you want an AR, you can probably put one together for around $500 or so if you look for sales and aren't in a hurry.

I have one with an 16" DPMS heavy (1 in 9") .223 chamber with a free flated non-vent forearm and it shoots under MOA until the barrel gets hot then it goes to 1.5 moa. It weighs over 11 pounds with a 4-12x Redfield and is pretty heavy to carry very far.

I have 2 Mini 14's one old, one new and they would be great for shooting people, not crows or PD's. Usually 4-6" gps until it gets hot and the we have patterns, not groups...it will stay on a full size human target at 100 yds.

Kel-tec look neat...hope it shoots good.

Jim,

Great news!! Have a wonderful Easter all!!!

In the Semi autos if your looking for accuracy go with the AR, but don't go with the 24" barrel version. Model 1 sales has them in different lengths and for a truck gun I would go with a 20" barrel max. As I type I am putting together another AR but this ones about double your price range around 1100.00 but it is in 204 Ruger and carries a .5 MOA guarantee @ 100 from Accuracy Systems, Inc. Built on a Rock River Arms lower.

I haven't read what they offer for triggers in the model 1 sales kit, but if you don't like the trigger JP Enterprises makes a great single stage trigger that is adjustable for around 179.00. Anyway if you have any questions on the AR platform PM me, I don't know all there is but I've spent a fair amount of time with them and I'll try to anwser them. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Spring:
Jim,
That Kel Tec does sound interesting. Have insight into its accuracy? I also like the fact that it uses the same magazines as an AR-15, which I already have several of.
Is this the gun you have in mind?

I have the Kel-Tec SU16 and have had a mini 14 and for what you want the SU16 is by far the better choice. It is much more accurate and lighter. The 18.5 inch bbl is the "long bbl" version and is the way to go since it is quite compact even when opened...you get 150 fps more velocity and little muzzle blast/flash.

The engineering and design is superior to the ARs since it uses a front driven piston and rod like the AK/SKS, while driving the standard AR bolt assembly. So, they have not only eliminated the long gas tube and the recoil assembly in the stock, but the recoil spring is forward of the bolt above the barrel...as the bolt comes back, it is pulling from the center of the rifle instead of pushing into the stock. The recoil moments is straight back with very little muzzle jump.

I use steel AR magazines vs the plastic ones that it comes with as the plastic can get a bit springy in hot weather or is you leave them loaded under tension for a long time. They expand or flex enough to allow rounds to jump out under these conditions.

The SU16 also has a 1 in 9 twist, and I load up to the 75 gr Hornady V-max with fine accuracy and velocity. The 64 gr Winchester hunting bullets make over 2900 fps and expand nicely into little mushrooms that will take deer, where legal, about as well as any 223 configuration one can come up with. 40 grainers still had minute of groundhog accuracy and are devastating with all that rotation.

The only down side to the gas system is that it has very fast bolt acceleration...this is a high pressure semi auto with NO gas tube...and you may need to dull up the trailing edge of the extractor to keep it from making deep cuts in the leading edge if the case' extractor grouve. My guess is that if you reload and hit the same part of the grouve more than once, you may pull the rim in that section off. Anyway, the extractor fix takes 15 minutes with an emory board, or just use a box of steel cases first.

With a good 4X scope and the tripod deployed you should be under 2 inches for 3 shots at 100 yards. This is a very light rifle and minor changes in your hold will definitely change your group. So, out past 150 yards on ground hogs get a good rest and use your range hold...better yet use the integral bipod an only touch it with your trigger hand. The lightness and the plastic feel may give you pause when you take it out of the box, but judge the rifle by how it shoots and you will be happy.

I would check out a Rock River Arms AR.

Have a 24" varmint one, and it will do 3/4" pretty easy.

Sabot,
That was a very insightful and interesting overview of the Kel-Tek gun. I really enjoyed reading it and learning about its performance and rather innovative design. I'm still considering an AR-15, but the fact that Kel-Tec might be more compact and durable certainly may make it better for the needs as I first described them.
I have a full-auto M-16 (not a Colt) and am a bit familiar with it, though I have not shot it much. I've had some problems with its ability to feed the bullets from the magazine. I'm taking it to the Marine Base in a couple of days to have one of their specialty guys check it out. If he gets it shooting as it should, I may end up using it more and find that I'd like another in that configuration. However, the Kel-Tec has really caught my attention, and your description has really helped me a lot as I decide which one is right for the needs that I have.

Vic,

The three shot group was fired first. Then the five shot group. These were at 100 yds and fired from sand bags. I measured the groups at just over 2 inches. The load was WW brass, 22 gr. 4198, 55 gr. Sierra BK.

Very Important: the model was the SU and the barrel has been shortened to 16.25 inches by the gunsmith. There was a Leapers 4 power scope on the rifle. The Leapers has very thick crosshairs so with a good scope I think the groups would have been a little smaller but you didn't think you would use a scope so it really shouldn't matter.

I would have liked to test the longer barrel.........

I have to get going right now. I will get back to you with more in a couple of hours.

Jim

Vic,

I used the plastic mags that were nested in the stock. I didn't have any problems with them but I can relate to what Sabot found. They seemed to be a little more flexable than I would have liked. I popped in one of my AR mags and it fit fine.

I did not see any marks on the brass as Sabot did. But Mike had shot this gun already and maybe this had something to do with it. I agree with Sabot that the key to shooting it well is holding it lightly.

Easy to field strip and clean. Fun to shoot.

Still have it if there are other questions.

Jim

Jim,
Thanks for taking the time to check out this gun for me. Overall, how would you rate its quality of construction and design? I know you are partial to the AR-15's, but how did the Kel-Tek measure up to those based up your experience with the two guns at this point?

Mini-14

Vic,

Your welcome.

Overall, I think the quality (of construction) is very good. The design is very simple and I like their use of the AR/M16 rotating bolt head. The trigger has some "take up" and then some creep and then breaks. Nothing I couldn't get used to and certainly not the worst trigger I have used. The rifle feels solidly made in spite of all the plastic. (Polymer, sorry) I believe all models fold up. When folded they are very compact.

Yes I am partial to ARs, but I am not sure a "head to head" comparison with an AR-15 is fair. There are some very sophisticated ARs now, and then we have the issue of price and value.

Were you able to get any information on price?

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew Rea:
Mini-14

Andrew Rea,

Welcome to Accurate Reloading.

Earlier in this thread we discussed the Mini-14 and keep coming back to the issue of poor accuracy.

I was hoping this thread would prompt someone with the "new" model to let us know if Ruger did indeed make some improvements.

Jim

Jim,
The price of a Kel-Tec SE-16C, at the place where I've found it is $519.99. This is the model that will also shoot when the stock is folded underneath. From the standpoint of a simple and compact .223 semi-auto, this gun seems to meet the needs.
On the otherhand I have been looking at the AR15.com site and have enjoyed considering one of those. My problem is that I know so little about the options on those guns that I'm hesitant to jump in and grab one. Some guns seem to have price premiums because of their collector's value from being unfired or with a low serial number, which could diminish if the gun was used. I also don't understand or appreciate the differences in a Sporter, Bushmaster, M4, Green Label, pre-Ban, Tactical, Rock River, CAR-A3, R6700, XM-15, RRA Elite, H-BAR, White Oak Match, Armalite, DSA, Vulcan Arms, POF P416, Blue Label, SPR Type, LMT Defender, Olympic Arms, Superior Arms, LEO 6450, Cavalry Arms, AS SP1, DPMS, Doublestar, CMT Stagarms, Fulton Armory, 1/7 upper, Colt LEG6920, and CMMG. If someone suggests that I buy an AR-15, I feel I should know a bit about all of the above. Since I don't, can you appreciate my hesitancy?

quote:

Originally posted by Spring:
I also don't understand or appreciate the differences in a Sporter, Bushmaster, M4, Green Label, pre-Ban, Tactical, Rock River, CAR-A3,
R6700, XM-15, RRA Elite, H-BAR, White Oak Match, Armalite, DSA, Vulcan Arms, POF P416, Blue Label, SPR Type, LMT Defender, Olympic Arms, Superior Arms, LEO 6450, Cavalry Arms, AS SP1, DPMS, Doublestar, CMT Stagarms, Fulton Armory, 1/7 upper, Colt LEG6920, and CMMG. If someone suggests that I buy an AR-15, I feel I should know a bit about all of the above. Since I don't, can you appreciate my hesitancy?

Yes I certainly can. Is this what they call "information over-load" ?? AR-15.com has a lot of good information. Very impressive list. I haven't checked any prices lately, but recently a buddy of mine picked up a new 20" AR for a little over $800 and he thought it was a pretty good deal. (no bells or whistles)

I have a pre-ban that is basically stock and I think I will leave it that way and build a 20 cal. I can't afford to spend all that money at once so getting the pieces over a period of time and assembling it myself seems like a good plan.

If there is anything I can do to help let me know. You are always welcome to PM me if you like also.

Jim

Vic,

If you were considering a kit, check this out.

Kit from Model 1

Jim

Vic,

Your hesitation is completly understandable considering the huge amount of variety available in the AR market place. If your wanting a "truck gun" you don't want any preban, green label, colt, ect...... There are several companies that offer lower reciever assemblies that are very good for decent prices. Stag arms, Rock River arms are my two choices, a complete lower assembly can be purchased for $220-$249. Then buy a complete upper assembly, I think you said you wanted open sights so you would want an A2 style upper, you can buy a Rock River complete CAR upper if you want good quality and a short barrel 16" with a Wilson chrome moly barrel in it for $435 or you could go with a standard upper from model one sales for $420 complete. If you wanted a varmint upper with a heavy barrel and the option of mounting optics in the future you could also buy the RRA's A4 or flattop with Wilson air gauged stainless bull barrel from 16" up to 24" in 2" jumps for $510-540. Anyway as you can see there are alot of options out there and some incredibly accurate AR's being made now. And they are very popular most of the good stuff is 8-14 weeks backordered. Good luck with your decision!

Maybe change your caliber to say a 7.62x39 and get a good SKS. I an shoot one out to a 175 yards and hit milk jugs with it. Depending on how much accuracy you want? Otherwise I would look into a AR model. Esox357

Esox, my personal best with a Colt AR is 1,106 yards lasered... Bit better than an AK...

I have the KelTec with the true folding stock and for lightweight compactness at approx $500 it seems to be in a class of its own. Mine shoots handloads a little over MOA @ 100yrds with a 7x scope. The scope is mounted to the top rail with QRW rings (no bases) since I use it on another rifle. I have not played with OAL with the handloads at all so I expect the groups to get better once I have more time to experiment. I will say that the true folding stock takes a little getting used to since it feels small and can flex a bit. Other than that I am pretty impressed with it. 1 for 1 on Coyotes this winter with it.

Deke.

Spring, I have 2 Bushmasters. One is a carbine with tele stock and the other is a V-match flattop with floated barrel. I also have a "put together" National Match upper for the V-Match lower receiver.

While I love my carbine, for your purpose I would reccomend the 20" barrel version for a longer sight radius that would make hitting with iron sights quite abit easier at longer distances. Just my opinion.

Joe A.