I was reading the post about the Canadian that wanted to help his father replace a 400+yds 'yote rifle.

I don't NEED another rifle. I do shoot my fair share of coyotes a year, but am too far south in NM to have prarie dogs. I have been very interested in the above cartridges, if built on a good solid action and good stock.

I did read some reports of each, which suprised me, as I thought they were all pretty rare. I guess here are my questions:

22-243 Middlestead- What makes it different than the 224 TTH except the case? Is this best set up as a 9, 8, 7 twist only with 70+ grain bullets?

243 AI- 243 Wn. has emerged as my NEW favorite small caliber after talking shit on it for years. Just doesn't have a viable place in my original state of PA for shots by thirdeyes at running deer with varmint loads, cause they don't know any better.

What does this round get above a Winchester (honestly)? Do you generally see a real difference in inherent accuracy? I am really leaning hard towards this round out of all.

6 MM AI- Had a 6 mm Rem, just in a finicky Ruger No.1. Sent it down the road. I've had the OAL argument about this cases before. All guns are going to be lefties, so the Winchester magazine of 3.10" is out. Any opinions on this over the 243 AI???

Again, I call in several dogs a year, but shots are rarely over 300 yards(too much brush).

Almost any deer cartridge will be fine for Coyotes.

Those wildcats and so called improved cartridges are just for fun. They don't really do much that you can't do with a standard cartridge.

But some must have a personal cartridge and glom on a odd ball round and promote it. This is ok as it's a hobby you see.

To say that the 6MM Rem is this or that just talks about a specific rifle. If any particular cartridge is fired in a rifle that is properly assembled it will be accurate.

I brought my 7MM WSM to Vermont with me this weekend in case I see a Coyote. It will do fine as far as just about any rifle. That's all you need is something like that.

Don thinks all "Wildcats" are bad medicine,despite most everything available off of today's shelves,are in fact yesterday's Wildcats.

His doting on the WSM is comical,as it was a Wildcat just a short while ago,plus it boasts the typical "Improved" dimensioning to boot(minimal taper and sharp shoulder). Both are contrary to his usual stance.

The list(Wildcats made legitimate as Factory rounds)is long and always changing,as is Don's notions. Just a couple months ago,the 30-06 was his answer to EVERY scenario and today it is the 7WSM.

I'm not so narrow minded and weigh performance and practicality,very heavily. In my opinion and experience,you gotta look long and hard to trump the 243AI. It is mag constraint friendly,utilizes superb brass that is easily available,is of a standard boltface,requires zero action mods to feed and function flawlessly,quality dies are abundant as well as inexpensive and it is not dependant upon an exaggerated barrel length.

Then of course there is the ability to shoot Factory fodder should one be so inclined,the plethora of available action types and it enjoys an enviable reputation for accuracy.

No flies on the 243AI,but hell you already knew that.................

if you plan to shoot only 70 gr in 22.243 1 in 9 can work fineor 1 in 8 faster make over stabilsation of the bullet .

I shoot 22.243 Mid because forming is simple AND case from Lapua are BR quality at resonable cost , all wilcat base on 6 REM are generalygood but case quality is a problem REM brand is not the best ( not cocentric wal case ) and form from european 7x57 is lot of work

243 AI is realy accurate but I doesn t like the short neck

for long range yote / fox hunting any thing work in the wilcat ( hot ) 2224 or 6 mm cal just remenber if yes or no you need the furr .

I shoot one barrel in 22.243 Midd made by rechambering of a 22.250 SAVAGE that work fine with bullet up to 60 gr .

if you get a take off new barrel in 22.250 slow pitch as 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 you can try GScustom in 45 solid bullet , you can drive then up to mach IV or not to far for match V

good shooting

DAN TEC

Wildcats are not a problem, as I already have a 6.5 WSM and a 257 STW. Don't know where the 7 WSM fit in but oh well.

This will be kind of a dumb thought, but did you ever have a rifle that was just "solid"? I mean a rifle that didn't make and sound by tapping on it other than a "thud". I rifle that shot tiny groups ALL THE TIME. That is what I am looking for. Like a nice weighty McMillan stock and a heavy Leupold 4.5-14 XIII. Not a bench gun, but a walk around near 9 pounds. I have several rifles, and the one that fits into this category the most is a Savage 243 with a Weaver 4-16. I just shot a 4 shot group at 200 yards that was near 5/8" with Barnes XLC's 85. Probably should just leave it alone, but it's like putting a silk hat on a pig. The Savage is just, well, unrefined.

Looking for something racey, like Steve Timms 22-250 AI with the blue McMillan and Leupold.

I'd agree with the 6 mm Remington brass. Still leaning towards the 243 AI, just need to decide on its purpose, i.e. bullet selection varmints vs all around for twist rate

I use the 22-243 Middlestead, basically it allows you to push 50 gr bullets to 4000 fps, or if you have a fast twist, 70 gr bullets as fast as 50-55 gr bullets in the 22-250. The 6mm AI works very well, the X 57 case responds well to the Ackley treatment, basically you'll get 100-150 fps over the 6mm Rem in stock form, which gets very close to 240 Wby territory. I've never tried the 243 AI, I think that the stock 308 based cartridges don't get much from the AI improvement, you don't gain a whole lot in case capacity. It does help with brass stretching, though. FWIW - Dan

About 1982 I got the idea (idea's don't have to be orginal) to make the .224 bore do what the 243 Win will do. I had become impressed with the short fat theory of good powder igition that the PPC's had proven. So the Middlestead and Cheeta were not good enough. No I had to go out and invent a new one. So I glommed onto the 6.5 Remingtion case. Long before then I knew that the belted cases were a poor design. But what if I designed a reamer that cleared the belt and headspaced on the shoulder? I sellected a 2.00" long length and a .300" neck seemed good. The standard 25 degree shoulder was fine with me and from what my dad and I knew about forming metal it would work well. A twist was picked from the formulas to stabilize a 90 gr bullet and I found a bullet maker in Utah who was able to make some 88 gr partitions for me.

I found a old M-70 in .264 Win for the donor rifle <---term borrowed from a tribe in another cyber world. Soon I had a reamer.

Of course there was a lot of excitement all along. I had a good time with the project up to this point as most of the gunnies that I talked to about this did not understand half of this baloney and of course thought it was a waste.

The first rounds fired with this new invention resulted in the cases sticking in the chamber. There were no pressure signs. There was no loading data either. I did talk to Bill Davis about it and he gave me his formula for the computer in Basic to use the Powley system however.

So the smith suggested that he polish the chamber and that improved things. Now I was able to get the 88 grain bullet up to 3200 fps with normal pressure signs. Whatever the real pressure is however I have no idea.

I carried this 9 lb, 26" long barreled mini cannon in the woods a little. That got old quick as I have dozens of better guns for game.

So back to the range. The rifle had a consistant habit of shooting the first two shots into one hole or almost one hole and the other would go to the right about 3/4" of an inch at 100 yds. I was very happy with this and left the bedding alone. The varmint bullet that shot the best was the 60 gr Sierra HP. Velocities were only about 3800 fps but I never get high velocities anyway. I never blow up guns either. Of course with this brainstorm it was like sailing off of the edge of the world. There were no wakes to follow.

The net was that I had a rifle that would almost reach 243 performance that weighed a ton but would shoot varmint bullets quite fast. It was very hard to prove that the velocity of the varmint bullets were a yard better than a Swift however.

So about five years later the accuracy with the varmint bullets went to hell. The 88 gr Allred bullets still shot very well however.

The next five years were spent lapping the barrel and peeking into it with a bore scope. The fun became negative around here.

In retrospect I am convinced that it's easier to follow someone else and use a factory cartridge. It's far more effective to just aim better or get closer to the target.

Now I read that the originator of this thread has other wildcats. Oh hum. Don't you love that finding out what the battery is after you make suggestions?

The only highlight to this wildcat of mine was the compliment I got from Henrickson on the quality of the chamber and cartridge drawings. He said they were the best he had ever seen. Of course he ment the drafting and common sense of the dimensions and not the cartridge.

Soon the .264 barrel will go back on. All of this will total about $700 spent and I am back at ground zero and maybe ten people will read this and seven of them will go and repeat the same stuff with "AI"s and other fashion statements.

Here's a 9lb-ish(haven't weighed it yet) 24" Shilen barreled 243AI in a McMillan stock and wearing a 4.5-14x 40mm. Not a bad setup and most flexible in it's abilities..............

Did somebody say "swirls"? That is one of my favorite words.









Well,hell you get the idea. I'm partial to swirls.................

I like camo schemes too,but I'll largely spare you...........

Big Stick-

You are either a millionare or a god, and quite possibly both. I'd give you a 1/4" of my right pinkey finger for any one of your guns. They all look exactly like I am trying to build.........except they're backwards.

What can you tell me about the blue-ish urban camo pattern, and the blue swirl pattern???

Do McMillan generally take several months?? I'll call again, as I am trying to get a Federal Law Enforcement discount of 15%. Looks like you have quite a few Leupolds, any problems with a 6.5-20??? Does a 50 mm do anything for you other than jack up the price $100.

Lastly how many AI's of any caliber do you have and any preferances?

I'm just poor white trash,just happen to prefer rifles built to suit my tastes and needs.

I LOVE the Urban scheme. I have 4 or 5 of 'em. The blue/white swirl is a pard's 243AI. Black/white swirl,is my favorite on an all S/S rifle. I think it sets things off nicely.

I ordered 4 McMillans not that long ago(coupla months) and received notice a couple days ago,that they are completed. Their new facilities,have really sped up the process.

I'd rather happily wait on the BEST,than get an immediate piece of shit from someone else. I'm a McMillan Slut,make no apologies and have been burned with other synthetic offerings. McMillan or bust,my tastes are that simple and staunch.

I like the Leupie 3.5-10x 40mm with turrets the best of all. It has a more constant and generous eye relief and still gathers good light. That,while maintaining a small stature and lower mounting(shorter tube length and 40mm objective). Plus they are of lighter weight. All those attributes combined,make it my favorite,plus it has 51MOA of elevation(7 more than the 6.5-20x).

Yep,the 3.5-10x is my favorite variable,but I very much admire the 6x42mm and they seem to keep breeding as they are now everywhere(grin). Another GREAT glass,in my opinon and they have 64MOA elevation.

I really don't exactly know,what I have. I'm sweet on several "Improved" chamberings though. The 22 K-Hornet,223Ackley,22-250Ackley,243Ackley,25-284,25-06Ackley and 375H&H Ackley are on my short list of favored Improved type chamberings.

Culling the herd,the 223Ackley,243Ackley and 25-06Ackley are my favorites. I think enough of the 223Ackley that I've got four of them and crave the fifth.

I've never built an Improved chambering I didn't like,if that answers anything................

Beautiful rifles, Big Stick and many fine chamberings. I'm jealous. I especially like that darker green w/ black swirls. Nice. I have two McMillans and I'm thinking about a bigbore model in those colors. McMillan ought to do a "feebie" for you, with all you've purchased, along with this terrific testimonial.

I'm of the simple opinion,that good stuff sells itself.

McMillan would be at the front of my thoughts,in that regard.............

Jesse, I have been taking 40-70 coyotes a season for the last 15 years or so out here in So. CO. Although that's not as many as some out there, it's not bad for a guy that has to work full time, and juggle a fiance now. I have used maybe 10 or so different cartridges on them over the years. I have come to the conclusion that the 24's are just too big a caliber for the coyote-CALLING FUR hunter. I've used the .243, 6mm Rem., and now finally the 6AI, and never found a bullet that would consistently treat fur respestfully as often as the .224's and smaller. They will work, but what happens when you call up a red fox, or worse yet a big old tom bobcat? either one of which should be tanned and put on the wall or wherever. Now that big 24 is probably going to be WAY too much gun most of the time, and will blow holes in the fur that will take some time to repair. But if you've got the time and inclination to do it, you'll be surprised what you can hide with needle and thread. Over the years the best cartridge combination I've ever used on CALLED fur was the .17 Rem/30 gr. bullets, although since the advent of the super lightweight 40 grainers, I've found myself toting a .223 AI, and .22-250 AI often again during fur season (although I've never been sold on any practical advantage of improving these cases in the field in a calling scenario)-- if you question this take a look at the point blank distance of any of these cases on a ballistics program, and remember we're talking about called coyotes, right?-- 300 yds. and under .17REM./30 grainers!

WHHOOOOEEEE, hows about those Big Stick guns? If he shoots 'em as often as he builds 'em, he's got to know a thing or 2.

Big Stick, I noticed the Leica laser, and all your scopes have target turrets, what are you doing with these rigs at long-range? Any opinions on bullet performance on coyotes at ranges beyond 500 or so??

Big Stick, What is a good ring/base setup to get the 3.5-10 40mm Leupold down close to the bore? I have one that I am going to mount on my new 260 and would like to get the right combination the first time.

Sorry gents,my Server was down for a couple days.

sscoyote,

I'm of the simple opinion,that it is turrets or bust. They add little weight and open huge windows of opportunity.

What I'm doing at long range,is connecting. Why guess,when you don't have too? I'm happiest with a known(confirmed) range and a Leupold with turrets. That is my idea of happiness.

I love my 257Wby's(built on 700's,tucked in McMillans and wearing Leupold's),for long range fun. The 30-8mmRemmag is another. No flies on the "vanilla" 7mmRemmag either.

But for the express purpose of crunching 'dogs on the otherside of 500yds,the 257Wby is my pick. It is incredible,in it's authority and an absolute hoot to bang around with............

Bruce,

I very much like Dual Dovetails and the Burris posilign rings with live centers.

They are easy on scope tubes and enable a guy to really optimize internal adjustments,if employing turrets.

The Leupold DD ring comes in a lower height,but I remain a fan of the Burris ring with live centers,though they mount the scope a smidge higher. I personally feel their latitude in adjustment,negates the slight height increase. That,despite my being a devout fan of low glass................

Here's the next project and I hope to have it finished in a couple weeks.



It will be based upon a S/S Rem 700 short and wear the S/S #1 contour tube shown,finished at 22" and chambered in 25-284.

I'm gonna try the new alloy Talley's on top and poke a Leupie 6x42mm matte with elevation turret on top(gotta poke it in the mail).

The Talley's as an experiment,in weight savings and the 6x42 because I love 'em. It will be my third 25-284 and it is another chambering worthy of serious consideration in my opinion. It is Big Medicine and sadly often overlooked by most............