If were offered for free either a Ruger KM77VT MK II Target ( here's a pic ) or a Savage 12BVSS ( pic of the Savage ) - which would you chose and why? Assume the same caliber.

I owned a Ruger as you described in .243. The gun was not a bad shooter, average group with 70 gr BT was about 5/8". I have sold Savage rifles that would shoot sub 1/2" out of the box. Find one of each at your local gun shop and handle them. I don't think that you would have trouble getting the Ruger to shoot as well as the Savage, although it may take a bedding job. Sometimes I wish that I still had the Ruger. I don't think that I gave the gun a fair chance. The one thing that I will say about the Ruger is to SCRAP the factory rings. They are junk and out of round. A good way to damage a scope. I have tried hand lapping these rings and they are truely JUNK. Good luck on your decision. I don't think that you will go wrong either way. RR.

I have owned 5 Ruger rifles 1 in 220 swift and 1 in 25-06 like you are talking about. People talk of groups i/2 and 3/4 at 100 yards. A rifle that groups 1/2 at 100 yards will group 2 inches at 400 yards. Most people just group at 100 yards if you have a varmint rifle see what kind of groups it will do at 300 yards then people can talk about how there rifles shoot. If they were giveing away 3 Savage rifles or 1 Ruger I would take the Ruger. Groups are all in shot placement . Of all my Ruger's never replaced triggers or glass bedded. I had a friend that all he would shoot was 700 Remington rifles he had to adment Ruger rifles were shooters my 2 cents worth

Savage without a doubt.

ruger, just because I dont like savages, not any real down sides to them, to me, the bolt feels rough and the ruger just seems "right" to me

I've never learned to bed a Ruger correctly to save my life, so I'd have to say the Savage. They sure shoot like a house-a-fire. FWIW, Dutch.

Savage, hands down. Much more likely to be accurate, and I don't like two-stage triggers (the 77VT has one, doesn't it?).

George

Savage, especially with the new trigger system.

I'd go with the Savage, in .22-250. (I already have one in .223.)

Savage

Never owned nor shot a Savage, but my Ruger M77s have all exceeded my expectations, and none of them has given me a single moment of grief.

Just my $.02,

Bill

Had the Savage you listed in a 22-250 and it was a real shooter. 1 1/4 inch groups at 300 yards.

Sounds like both rifles have done well for folks here. I'm leaning toward the Savage due to their reputation for accuracy. My only drawback now is weight. I don't really intend to use it all that much for varmints, but rather a long-range coues deer gun. I'm planning on going with 25-06, but now I'm kind of leaning toward the Savage 110FP ( here's a link ) due to a slightly lower weight. Not a very attractive gun, but I'm looking more at performance. Thoughts?

Thanks for all the great replies!
Jason

I honestly cannot say I'm a fan of either one. Ruger is well known for their barrel problems, and it's simply too much of a crapshoot as to whether you get a good one. Admittedly, Savage for the most part makes some accurate rifles, but God they're ugly. Of course beauty and accuracy do not have to be interchangeable. Savage has proven that. Back in the early 70's you could buy Savage barreled actions and stock them yourself. I thought that was the way to go. I'm quite fond of Ruger handguns, but definitely not their rifles. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

If you can find a Savage stock that you like; buy the Savage. Ruger barrels are hammer forged, I believe, and are reasonably accurate for deer but are typically not known for longer range accuracy. Like Cal says "It's a crapshoot" on the Rugers. But; I can't stand the plastic Savage stocks.
I am left handed; and own One left hand Savage stainless that has a McMillan Stock on it. I've got more $ in the stock and bedding than I paid for the gun. But; It does shoot like a house afire. My other hunting rifles are Sakos. When it's raining; the Savage goes to the woods; Not a $1,200+ Wood stocked Sako.

If it is going to be used more for deer hunting than for more rapid-firing, like at ground squirrels or prairie dogs, then I would not get the heavy barrel. Just get a Savage sporter weight barreled version in .25-06 and I think you'll be happy. Shoot 3-shot groups and go for a cold barrel sight-in.

Savage. I own one. Had to put aftermarket trigger in and had it bedded. Have used it on several Prairie Dog hunts. Excellent results.
I own Rugers and like them too. But the Savage is more accurate. (weighs a ton)

I have that same Ruger in .243 with a leupold 6.5 X20 40mm adj obj. It shoots the lighter bullets such as 70 grain Noslers into 1/2 moa or better all day long with handloads, which is great as this is exactlty what I want to use . I have been very happy with this rifles performance as a varmint shooter. It doesn't very much like the heavier bullets and struggles to stay within 1.5 moa with anything above 90 grains. Its a heavy s.o.b. if you plan on carrying it on long walks in open fields but if your application for it is a decent long range varminter I would recommend it.

I've never owned a Ruger bolt action, although I've heard that they don't have enough of a lug to do a good bedding job. Not sure about that, but I've also heard that they are not very accurate out of the box.

I have had experience with Savage. I just bought a 12FVSS in .22-250 with the new accutrigger. Mounted scope, adjusted trigger to the lowest setting (about 1-1/2 lbs by my trigger gauge), loaded some Nosler 55 gr ballistic tips, and headed out to the range. After the action settled into the stock (about 15 rounds), the first five shot group I fired at 100 yards went into .303" measured with a caliper. 2nd group was not quite as good, but well under 1/2 MOA!

I'm a firm believer in Savage - out of the box.

Steve,

Couldn't you have done like I did and just say that you've never owned a Ruger and leave it at that? Instead you post "I've heard" type rumors?....

Anyway, I have three Ruger M77s, and NONE of them WON'T shoot under an inch with properly tailored handloads.... My VT will do 1/2" all day long with factory Fed Prem match 168s. All three are rock stock, and never given me even a hint of trouble....

Have you seen Riccardelli's 22-250 200 yard groups from his "rock-stock" M77?

Regards, Bill

Sorry, Bill M. I didn't know heresay was inadmissable in your court. I'll just go back to the other forums.

Steve,

Do what you wish....

Have owned a few Ruger rifles and none of them would group to my expectations. I no longer use them and do not like the action since if forces me to use Ruger rings. I like an action that is drilled and tapped allowing me to use the bases and rings of my choice. The worst grouping rifle along with the worst trigger pull I have ever encountered was on a Ruger rifle.
My Savage rifles are plain jane and some consider them ugly but the groups they produce elimintae my need for an attractive looking rifle. They just shoot fantastic groups and are hard to beat when it comes to the holes in the paper. I would put my Savage 12 FV 22-250 or my Savage 110 in 243 up against any Ruger for best five shot group.

Rugers SUCK. I'll take the savage. I have owned several Rugher, and was never able to get any of them to perform up to my expectations with respect to accuracy.

Just what are your expectations ? Not a flame just a question. Remember these are all factory produced guns, built by joe-lunchbox. He or she is punching a clock to pay the bills,may not even shoot and people who are dedicated gunsmiths tend to get into that profession because of a love of firearms. (you will tend to get a better product frome someone who doesn't answer to a board of directors and their name is on the product, expec. in the age of the internet.) They know what a shooter expects! I have owned both rugers and savages to me it was a coin toss.
Savage- Ugly but a shooter
Ruger- IMHO a beautiful rifle with acceptable accuracy. Mine have all shot under 1 in . I had 1 30-06 tang safety model that would go 1.25 to 1.75 at 200 yards with rem factory loads (just corrloks)

just my .02

Andrew

[ 08-24-2003, 21:26: Message edited by: navrunner1 ]

Reloader66, You are mistaken to think that Ruger rings can't be replaced. Burris and Leupold [and probably a few others] make rings for the Rugers. Actually I think that Ruger and Sako have a better idea as far as integral bases. Integral bases greatly ruduce the chances of something coming loose. RR.

.......A newbie passing through and I saw the thread title. I own both makes. I have an old Ruger round top M77 30-06 sporter. My wife gave it to me for Christmas 1974. She picked this rifle because the wood was pretty. It came in 30-06 because my grandfather was with her and his feelings are that all cartridge development after that was so much BS :-).

Although not a varmint rifle, it's plenty accurate for a big game rifle. With Sierra 150gr SP's and 61.5grs of IMR4350 (3075 fps avg) it'll plunk 5 of'em into a spare inch. It's a very fine looking and finished rifle that does what it's supposed to. Guess I was lucky with it's accuracy for such an early one. Not really germane to the thread, but a very nice Ruger none the less.

I had an FFL from 1982 until 11-2001. In 1992 I bought a M112 single shot in 223 for $285 wholesale and a Tasco 6x24 scope, which cost I think, $92 from Davidsons. I'd bought some Norinco ammo just for fun to see what would happen. Previous posters lamenting the twisty flexible plastic stock are 100% keerect! This was before their piller bedding too.

The cheap communist ammo shot about 1.25" or so. Working up handloads over several weeks I could never get really consistant repeatable accuracy as I thought it should deliver. One plus was that the barrel was VERY fast to clean. I'd ordered an old Savage wood varmint stock from GPC from when Savage had these back in the 80's.

I pillar bedded it expecting great things (oh yeah, some trigger work was done also). Still not real good. I'd get 3 close, or 4 close and some out a bit etc. Took it to my gunsmith who did a chamber cast and found that the chamber reamer (or something) had messed up the leade so that the lands started at different distances from the casemouth.

He set the barrel back 2 threads and ran a match reamer in. Mercy! What a difference THAT made :-). Turned it into an honest 1/2" rifle. Oh I've shot some 5 shot groups with it down below a quarter inch or so and many 3's and 4's, but I'd bet my life that I could plunk down and rip 5 into a half inch or less.

My very honest belief is that any Savage bolt action is worth way more than they ask, and it's a very under rated rifle. Even after my problems, if I was in the market for another rifle, due to their price and reputation it'd be a Savage.

.........Buckshot

I currently have two Savage 11's (.308 and .223) and have owned a number of Rugers (M77, Min-14).
When I bought my first deer rifle, the old guy at the gun shop steered me to the Savage. He was the old time shooter that used to be so common here in Nebraska, but that is slowly dieing out. I went with his recomendation, and have never regretted it! Yeah, they are ugly. The triggers suck, but I took my .223 out of the box and out shot a heavy barreled Ruger of my uncles (long story).

All the Ruger's I have owned have been cranky to say the least. The M77 in .270 was ok, 1.5 MOA, but not to my liking. For my money, I will go with the Savage.

No more Rugers for me, when a company worries more about safety of the stupid than the accuracy of the hunter, I don't need it. You should not have to buy a rifle, then buy a trigger. Remingtons adjust (kinda), Savages adjust (for sure), Brownings adjust (kinda), Sako adjust (for sure), which I have aal of these. Ruger's, no adjustment. They are created for the hunter that does not care about the hunt. You guys with the tang safety Rugers have the last of a good thing from Ruger. There pistol's are the same way. Great guns, bad triggers. Just my nickel's worth.

My Savage 12BVSS in 22-250 shoots 1/4" with just a bedding job(the rest box stock) and that accu trigger is VERY nice!On a calm day when I'm doing my part it will go in the high ones and low twos with 36 grains of 4064 and 50 gr V-Max bullets in neck sized brass.Just make sure the bullets are in the cases straight with a thousandths or less run-out and put good optics on it.Less than $600 invested and superb accuracy.

Hi Woodseye...Nice to see you back at AR!!
I would take the Savage.
I've never seen better "out of the box" accuracy with Savages, than with any other make. Other than Sako!!LOL
Seriously, both rifles will serve you.
I would take the Savage...Matter a fact,I would take any "free rifle"..sakofan..

[ 09-04-2003, 04:15: Message edited by: sakofan ]

Howdy Sako,puter went down when I was in the middle of building my latest rifle and taking on reloading in a major way so it had to wait while I did the important stuff.........grin.I'm with you,I'd take any gun if it was free and do whatever it takes to make it shoot bug holes.Some just seem to be easier to do this with than others...........but they all respond to the right pieces and work.
Cheers woods

I own two Ruger KM77VT MKII's (.22-250 and .308) and two Savage 10FP's (.260 and .308) and have done extensive load development on all these plus another 10FP .223. The Sav .308 was just rebarrelled with 1 28" 1:8" .260 L-W BR Barrel, and is really starting to show major improvement over the 24" factory barrel, especially for long range shooting.

They have all responded very nicely to load developement. My experience with glassbedding both Rugers is that it had zero effect on accuracy.

The 10FP plastic stock is not good for supported or slung prone shooting (way too flexible), but works OK for most hunting applications. I have McMillan A-Series Tactical stocks (an A3 and an A5) on my Savs, and I am totally pleased with them in all respects; they are well worth the additional cost.

The Ruger VT trigger is, in my opinion, the best factory trigger I've used (in addition to the Savs and Rugers, I also own R700's and Win 70's). The new Sav Accu-Trigger works very nicely, in my experience.

The Savage costs enough less to make additional accessories more affordable, and their reputation for excellent out-of-box accuracy bears up well in my experience. The Rugers cost a lot more, but are good to go exactly as they come from the factory.

The Ruger action works much more smoothly, with less effort, if this is an issue for you. It is not for me, as I use them all primarily for either paper punching (the .260 in 1000yd "F" Class comp), or Varmint shooting.

Greg

Greg.....wanna sell the FP 260??????? Missed out getting one before they stopped production. I do shoot a custom 260AI heavy varmint rifle. Need no glass/trigger with FP, only barreled action.....later, Armed.............

Not really; sorry.

I haven't sold a rifle in over ten years. I pretty much get what I need and hang onto it.

But thanks for asking.

Look, any short or long action Savage (except maybe some later Magnum actions which don't use the same diameters) can be rebarrelled to .260, as long as it has the basic .30-06, .308, .22-250, etc bolt face.

The best ones are the ones built in .308, .243, or 7mm-08 because the cartridge dimensions are identical, except for neck diameter, and the magazines, etc. work fine. Rifles built in other calibers will probably need some magazine parts (box, follower, etc) replaced to fit the .260 cartridge, or you can skip that and just load it as a single shot.

If the bolt head you have is not for the proper diameter, it can be replaced with one that is right. You can get them from a number of sources, I recommend Sharpshooter supply.

Replacement barrels can be obtained from all the major manufacturers, chambered and threaded for the Savage, as well as distributers like Midway and Sharpshooter supply.

Swapping barrels on the Savage is a lot simpler, because the barrel nut system allows the barrel to be headspaced without needing to do any shoulder machining. I use a dummy round as a headspace guage, but even a fired case will work.

Greg

If I was looking for a gun with the better feel, I would go for the ruger. Rugers look good and have a good action since its a mauser action. They are reliably accurate but they can run a hole in your wallet depending on the model gun you want.

Savage has the more accuracy but they dont fit as good as the rugers and the savage trigger has a "creep" to it. I have had 1 savage, Model 110 long action .243 Winchester and it was a tack driver. I coud get 1/4" groups at 50 and 100 yds with it. My cousin owns it now because he shot his first deer with it and wanted to buy it from me before I sold it for a remington 700 .243

The varmint gun I have now is a Remington 700 VS 24" bbl, 1:14" twist I think, in .220 Swift. It will shoot dime sized groups at 50yds ALL DAY long. Ive got a trashco 6-18x42mm AO w/ finger adjusting turrets. Shootin 40gr Sierra Blitzkings and HP over 40.5gr of H380 with a CCI BR-2 Benchrest Primer. Im gettin about 1350+ ft lbs @ 3693 FPS.

Old Chinese saying:

"If you want rifle that look like sh!t and shoot beautifully, buy Savage"

"If you want rifle that look beautiful and shoot like sh!t, buy Ruger"

"You want rifle do both -- buy Remington"

Seriously, we have guys in the Club who use Rugers -- they're not competitive with the Savages.

Mind you -- the nut behind the butt is still the deciding factor!

I think Savage has the best factory rifle out of the box next to Sako.

I won't bad mouth the Savage. When comparing new to new my guess is as good as any other. When talking about the older original M77's, all bets are off: it was a superior rifle, especially the M77V. I regret trading it.