It sort of amazes me, having been on here for a while now.

I responded to a post in this particular forum here. My opinion differed from those evidently that were talking on the post. It had to do with recommendations on Scopes.

I gave my opinion and it was nothing more than that. I DID NOT mention anyone's name, or make any inferences to ANY Individual on that posting...

However, I had the good fortune of having myself personally attacked by two individuals and supported by a 3rd person in his posting.

One of the two people has only been on here for a short time with a total of 8 postings listed. The third one has been on here not much longer.

One of the two that attacked me has been on here quite a while. In fact I regard him as a Gentleman and go out of my way to look for his postings as I hold his "writings" in high esteem. I was taken a little aback at being attacked by him.
I did send him a personal email apologizing if I offend him in anyway, and will still hold his opinion and his writings in high esteem, regardless if they correspond with mine or not.

I don't have to agree with everything someone writes on here to be able to admire their experience and their prospective.

I have read my post several times just to make sure, that I did not offer personal slander to anyone individually.

If people want opinions and input and don't agree with it, then don't agree with it. That should be the end of it. Personal attacks are juevenile, and those that did it, accuse me of being the juevenile.

Like many of us, I do not log on here to attack someones opinion, their personal lives or them as individuals.

If there is a by law in here, that states, please only post things that agree with the others on the forum then some one please take a few moments to show me.

Big Cases do not do anything for me, trendy items such as Short Mags or Ultra Mags don't do anything for me, nor do scopes that have 0 to 1000 power zoom rating, or 50 or 56 or 60 mm objectives on them. All of that is opinion based on experience for me. That is what we all share, personal opinion.

All of our personal opinions differ from one to the next.

So if you want to be Politically Correct in here too, watch what you say in general.

As for me, I stand by what opinions I share. If they offend someone, they have my apology, but it still does not change my opinion. I just apologize that they felt personally offended on a statement made in General. I will not modify my opinion so they can feel all warm and fuzzy. I will also not personally attack someone. I have been tempted when I first got here to fire back, until someone older and wiser, pointed out it takes TWO to make an argument.

Just because my opinion differs from someone elses, does not give an open invitation to have them slander my Name on this board, where I live, or tell me I don't know what I am talking about when I can accomplish with a 6 power scope what they need a 20 power scope for. If I can't hit it on 6 power, I am going to get a more powerful scope, or more likely not take such a long shot with the equipment I have, and realize the limitations of the scope or the cartridge and apply that accordingly.

One gentleman I deeply respect and will continue to do so.
The other two I don't know, but it does not mean that I think they are idiots, or that they don't know what works for them.
I just don't agree with their choices, and that opinion is what was asked: what type of scope do people recommend based on experience. I clearly pointed out my experience and the reasons why.

Personally there are many people who I agree with on one subject and have the total opposite opinion on another. The latter does nt mean that I disrespect them.

And this isn't NO SNAPPY OR WITTY answer I was pre-accused of giving.

Seafire:I am not even sure if you are referring to me in your pleasing posting here but in case you are. Let me chime in!

I just think it was so out of place for you to mention the mens anatomy part in your opinion regarding scope power. That, I should realize is just my thought (opinion).

Now I will be very frank with you, there are two things you do not insult in regards to adult males! #1 is their penis and #2 is their choice of motorcycles! If you do make one of these faux pas - you will be in for a fight.

Fact of life. Believe it or not.

To make reference to penis's and scope power was out of line on this forum. I accept the apology you rendered. End of that. I also appreciate the no holds barred attitude and policies of this boards moderaters.

For instance about 15 months ago on another Varminting Chat Board the anti's were giving the regular board posters grief on repeated occassion. I lit into one of the anti-gun peta types on that forum and low and behold one of the two board operators chose to attack me for standing up for second amendment rights! I called him (the board owner) and his partner COWARDS on that public forum and in private messages to both of them. Imagine allowing jerks out to make trouble only, to run rampant on a forum and then giving grief to a dedicated and often praised regular member (who publicly identified myself and had correct E-mail address listed!). This forum is open and good about allowing uncensored opinions! I appreciate that.

Like I say I told those moderaters to piss off and have not been back.

Contention, confusion, turmoil and differences always surface when people trade opinions but I for one would never out of the blue try and insult someones manhood on a posting.

Having said these previous things I realize I went way to far trying to illustrate a recent absurdity with absurdities of my own. And therefore I must apologize to you in my reference to your sexual proclivities! That on my part was out of line, uncalled for and inappropriate! I can not rationalize its motivation or reasoning and therefore I will go back and remove it soon.

Again I apologize to you! It was not my intent yesterday morning to get up and go about my day antagonizing you or anyone. I am sorry I might have done so!

I am sorry.

Lets go Hunting!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

P.S.: I still think you are incorrect in your opinion that 6X scopes are "fine" for 300 yard Prairie Dog Hunting.

Seafire,

You are right in the fact you did not mention my name in your original response regarding High Power Scopes, however, since I was the only respondent mentioning the Nightforce scopes, one did'nt have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who your comment was directed at.

If I offended you in my response than I apologize and I accept your apology in return. So I think it's time to put this to bed. Okay?

I am new to this board with my current username, however I was on the furum some time back under a different name and due to moves, computer crashes, you name it so I have stayed away other than an observer.

I respect your choice of a 6X scope for varmints, just as you need to respect the choice of others irregardless of what power level they choose to use. The gentlemen was asking for an opinion and I merely gave him mine. In the end it will be his decision.

Seafire, you also mentioned that one of the individuals that responded had only been on here for a short time. I don't know if you were referring to me or not....Howver, the length of time that an individual has been on here has nothing to do with his experience level or the quality of his opinion. I've only been hunting aggressively for 50 years and have been reloading over 40 years...I have used and tried many, many scopes.I've hunted from southern Senora in old Mexico to the northern reaches of the Carrot River in Saskatchewan and most places in between....so, I felt like I had enough experience to a least offer an opinion....I expect that my experience with hunting situations and with scopes far exceeds yours.....I was only trying to offer quality suggestions and advice based on actual long term hunting experiences......I thought you comments were out of line...and still do...

Gee Whiz, did I miss a real blood letting? Damn! I hate it when that happens. 'Course, I kinda go along with old Harry on that account: "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." I sure am glad I read this however. I didn't know penises and motorcycles were off limits. Why is that?
If someone wants to talk about my penis, it wouldn't really bother me. I do, however, hate someone that will kiss and tell.

I read the first couple responses, then halted. They both denigrated a person for being a Democrat.
Your political affiliation is your own, no one elses. Are we saying only Republicans or Independents
are welcome here? I would sincerely hate to think that. Maybe we should open our mouth to change
feet before we hit the enter key. Time spent on these boards should be a pleasant experience. I hope
we'll all make the effort to keep it that way. Best wishes.

Cal

Lets see:

GSH 284 Win: Dear Sir I was not indicating you at all when I spoke of one other person. In fact, I believe it was you I was referring to that mentioned the 4.5 x 14 scope which I think of as Ideal.

Varmint Guy:

I have always held you in the highest respect, and no apology is needed. I accept it all as a mis communication. Your postings have, and will continue to be some of my favorites on this board. I actually log on to the Varmint Page with the sole intention of reading some new posting that you have made. I actually think that your stuff is gunwriter potential, without the commericalization. It is honest, heart felt and contains no BS.

Even if you had told me to buzz off, I still would have held your writings in high esteem. Admiration does not have to be a two way street. You are a righteous guy, that why it bothered me that I offended you.

As for the 6x power scope not being adequate for varminting, that is cool. I did respect your opinion enough to load up 50 rounds of 223, and go out to the rrange this afternoon. I ran off 10 of the Prairie Dog targets from Leupold's Web Site.

I hung 8 of the targets at 300 yds, and 2 more at 200 yds.
I also hung one loose store bought target in my case of a prairie dog that said lifesize, and hung it at 350 yds.

The rifle was a Remington VLS, 223, that really needs a trigger job. The load was 24.5 grains of RL 7, with a 40 grain Sierra Hollow Point.

I took 5 shots at each target at 300 yds from a rest at the bench, with a 6 x Leupold fixed power scope. Of 40 shots at 300 yds, there were 27 solid hits, and 13 misses. Most of the misses were within an inch or two of the prairie dog's outline. 66%

At the two targets at 200 yds, next, there were ten shots fired, and there were 7 hits and three misses. 70 %

At 350 yrds, ( the outline was bigger than the Nosler target)
of ten shots fired there were once again 7 hits, and three misses on the outline. 70%

I don't know if you classify that as good, bad, or mediocre, but those are the results. Some days I do better and some days I do worse. It was overcast and rainy today ( that Northwest Mist type of rain.)

Sedakota:

I had no intention of singling you out. I kinda chuckle at the Nightforce scopes, as I do consider them overkill. At the time I said something ( taken as negative) about them, I did not really read your posting remembering whose name had said it.
I really read all of the posts before I posted mine. My posting was offering an opinion of a different prospective.

To all I will clarify, that the term Penis Envy, is just that, a term. It is not really trying to insinuate someone must have a small penis or anything else just based on the scope that they use. If It means something else to others, then I do apologize as it was not my mission or intention to criticize.

From you above posting, I can see you are a gentleman as much as Varmint Guy is. Leaving Minnesota in 1995 for Oregon, I have always known nothing but the nicest people you can ever hope to meet in South Dakota. I have been across and spent a lot of time in So Dakota for almost 12 yrs, living in MN.

I gladly accept your apology and regret that any of us even took anything to heart as a personal slander. I extend a belated welcome to our board, and will look forward to reading your posts as I do Varmint Guys always.

I personally have no need for a Nightforce scope, but I also know I can see some people do some amazing things with a big scope that for me looks like looking thru a fish bowl.

And to be fair to you gentleman, maybe Seafire is a little sarcastic, which there was no call for, by experiencing too many guys show up at our local range, with Big Buck Equipment and come with a pompous attitude that " I must be a better shooter than you guys, because look what I have, and you don't!"

With the good Lord willing, maybe we can share a prairie dog town someday, and BS and laugh over this, while we wait for some barrels to cool down.

Any of you gentlemen ever get toward Oregon, and want to go out and decrease the ground squirrel population, give me a little notice if they are running and I will happily set something up. Know some good spots and am always happy to share a varmint field with some fellow shooters.

Thanks for the communication opportunity.

seafire/seabiscuit

Cal,

Always the diplomat, and the gentleman.

As far as I am concern, this is a dead issue.

I hold Varmint Guy in high esteem and also Sedakota, now that we have had a chance to meet and discuss this miscommunication.

For GSH 284Win, I had not directed anything at him either, and know that I did not see a slanderous return on his part.

It is clear and blue skys on the subject as far as I am concerned. It shows that these gentlemen are not perpetually angry as they each took the time to give their prospectives and an explanation and graciously took the tiime and effort to read mine.

What else could I ask for than that?

Seafire: I am jealous you were able to shoot recently! I loaded up and went out to my range day before yesterday even though the wind was doing 12 MPH+! I was betting on the calm air that often comes just before sundown. It did not happen in fact the wind picked up! Chinook wind at that as it was 45 degrees. I have two new Remington stainless VLS Rifles that need only to be double checked on the load that I have chosen for them!
Now today I woke up to a broke down meat freezer just filled recently with Antelope, Deer, expensive game sausage and some donated Elk! Let alone my Bear skull and Antelope skull and Mule Deer cape! I was first in line at the only appliance store in town when it opened at 9:00 AM and wasted (it wasn't a Rifle!) $435.00 on a new freezer! I saved most of my new meat but lost some and just refroze the skulls. Ssshhheeeeeiiiitttt!
Now Seafire that was a range report! I am pleased you did so well at the 300 yards mark! And I would describe that as being close to fine for 300 yards! Maybe the wind was drifting those 40 grainers a bit on you?
Thanks for sharing the results.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

V.G.

Sorry to hear about the freezer, and the lost $400.00 plus on non shooting stuff. Guess that is the peripheral costs for our hobby.

Thanks for the compliment on the shooting report. I can't blame the wind for making those 40 grainers off target. I have to look at getting off of my buns and taking a few moments to adjust the trigger on the 700 VLS.

You never know, maybe the 27 out of 40 being on target was the result of the wind, and the 13 near misses were where my straight one's were going!!

Wouldn't be the first time any of us had to go " back to the drawing board" ( or the load bench).

One time outside of Billings PD shooting with my buddy, the first one we saw getting out of the truck was at 475 yds. My Buddy asked me If I thought I could take that one. My opinion was lets find out. Pulled out one of the 223s, set it up on the hood of the 4 Runner, and cranked up the target turrent to the appropriate setting and pulled the trigger. Low and behold, the PD goes flipping thru the air. My buddy's comment, was If he had not seen it, he would have not believed it.

Then a big fat one popped up at 75 yrds, or so. I cranked the scope back down to the 100 yd zero and took a shot at on the lowest setting on the scope. Of course I missed it.
Missed it not only once, but 10 times!!!! MY buddy's comment on that one: I wouldn't have believed that one either if I hadn't seen it.

Hello Murphy's Law.

Thanks again!
seafire

Hey VG and Seafire, speaking of the 223 VLS, have you guys noticed better accuracy from the 40gr pills than the 50s and 55s? I haven't shot the 40s yet in mine, but wanted to try them. Right now, I'm using the 50 BKs, but want to see if I can tighten the groups up just a little more.

Also, have either of you floated the barrels or bedded the actions on yours? I've also thought about doing this, but if it won't gain me much I may pass. What's your experience?

BTW, I really had to laugh at all these postings lately. Writing emails and posting on forums never really conveys how the words are spoken and in what context. It leaves allot of room for different interpretations. I see this at work allot with people getting pissed off about what someone else wrote. Whatever happened to walking the 50ft down the hall to actually discuss something instead of writing an email? There's no way that can happen here of course, but it's just an observation as we continually move into a more technological society. It was good to see how you guys handled it in the end. It's proof that the majority of the folks on this forum are mature gentlemen that can accept the different opinions of others.

Thanks Jethro:

I have always thought Varmint Guy a class act guy from all of his posting on here. The Silver Lining in this little descreptency is that with a little communication, I have had the priviledge of meeting two more NEW Gentlemen on the board,and that is Sedakota, and Lone Bull.

As far as my 223 VLS, I have not bedded it at all. The rifle is very accurate out of the box. It is in desparate need of a trigger job tho, and I need to get off my lazy buns and do so.

I have had good luck with the 40 grain bullets in all of my 223s. Primarily experience is with the Ballistic tip, the BlitzKing and the Sierra HP. I shoot the most of the latter, for economy sakes. I have a habit of shooting a lot with the 223s.

I own about 6 of them. Only one Remington VLS, three Ruger VTs and a Winchester featherweight in 223, and a ReBarreled Ruger 77 Mk 2, that was a sporter, but got replaced with a heavy sporter PacNor barrel in stainless steel with a 1 in 8 twist. ( that one does not like the 40 grainers as much as it favors the 75 and 80 grainers.) In fact the 1 in 8 twist, causes me to have to watch my velocity ALOT with more fragile 223 bullets.

I sort of earmark each one of my rifles to different loads that I use. The scopes are already set up etc.

The VLS is set up to use 40 or 45 grain loads. Its major diet is 40 grain bullets with 24.5 grains of RL 7 for a velocity of 3700 fps. Diet number two is 28.5 grains of Benchmark with 45 grain bullets with a velocity of 3650 fps.

Two of the Ruger VTs live a life of eating my most used Varmint load, the 12.5 grains of Blue Dot with a MV or 2600 fps for varmints. This velocity is the same for anything from 40 grain bullets to 55 grain bullets, so point of impact is the same no matter what is on sale at Cabelas or Midway, or Grafs. I zero it 3 inches high at a 100 yds and it is dead on at 200 yds. Since that corresponds to minute of prairie dog at 200 yds, that is where it lives.

I like the Blue dot loads for economy. I get almost 600 rounds out of a pound of powder. The lifespan of the brass is eternal if you don't screw up the case on the reload bench.
I am shooting some Lake City brass that has date stamps from the VietNam era!. The small amount of powder and it being a shotgun powder, it burns up before it is half way down the barrel. What this translates to is that I can shoot hundreds of rounds and it is hard to really overheat the barrel in a bolt action. I can shoot 30 rounds of the blue dot load before the barrel heats up the equivalent of 5 rounds of factory loads.

The only reason I have the second Ruger in this duty, is that I was at a gun show here in town and and old guy was getting crippled so he was selling his varmint stuff because he could not go out anymore due to physical handicap. He was selling his guns cheaply to those he thought would give them a good home. If he did not take a liking to you, they weren't for sale at any price.

He had an original Ruger VT with a black receiver and a Stainless Steel barrel ( not the gray) in 223 with a 8 x 32 Tasco Target Dot Custom Shop scope on it. The rifle did not even have the varmint style trigger in it.

He was asking $300.00 for it, and no one was buying it because they thought that something must be wrong with it, for that price. Hell, I saw it, and gave the guy a $100.00 to hold it for me and went straight to the bank and took out another $200.00 for cash on the barrel for it.

Then a lot of guys were standing around pissing and moaning that they hadn't bought it when they had the chance.

Took it to the range that afternoon and it was a take driver just like the older gentleman said it would be.

When I go to Montana and prairie dog shoot my nephew is digging in my truck for THAT rifle to use, because it is so accurate. He lets his sister use his 223, when I am in town, and disappears with that Ruger until it is time for me to go back to Oregon.

Jethro: I also have 6 Varmint Guns in caliber 223 Remington. This is a wonderful and very dynamic caliber (useful in many ways).
Usually when I get a new Varminter I have in mind a particular bullet or weight of bullet to use in it and I go about load testing to suit that bullet or weight of bullet to get the Rifle to group to my expectations.
So I have not compared 40 grainers to 50's or 55's very often at all!
The only exception I see in my loading log is a Shilen barreled custom Remington 700 that I had built in 1994. It has a Jewell trigger and a muzzle brake and sits in a McMillan Marksman style stock. It is VERY accurate! I think the Nosler 40 grainers were new on the market about then and I had a good load already using the Sierra 50 gr. Blitz bullets but, I decided to try the Nosler 40's. The Nosler 40's shot better than the 3 other bullets I tried in that Rifle (the Sierra 50 Blitz, the Sierra 52 gr. Match and the Sierra 53 gr.). So that is my extent of comparing 40's to 50's. In this Rifle it worked out that the 40 gr. bullets were a touch more accurate!
By the way the muzzle brake on this Rifle was a brain storm that fizzled on me. Its true I can see the bullet impact when shooting this very heavy Varminter (13 pounds 15 ounces with Leupold 6.5X20 scope) BUT when shooting from my mat in the prone position my particular style of muzzle brake SUCKS up dust from the ground and often my field of view through the scope is obscured by the dust! Oh well lesson learned.
Now I have one other Varminter in 223 that uses the Nosler 40 gr. bullet and I am very satisfied with the accuracy from that Gun also. No other bullet has been tested in that gun. Needless to say the 40 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips are very explosive and lethal on Varmints.
But on this new Remington I am bringing on line now I have been testing only 55 gr. bullets with it - in specific the Nosler 55 gr. Ballistic Tip. I want to use this bullet in this Rifle and I was very happy with the FIRST load I tested in it. I just returned from the range an hour ago and I was going to do the final testing of this 55 gr. load but the wind had picked up and I did not want my tests to be affected by the wind. So I came home without firing a shot. For the second time this week! Dang wind!
The first two 5 shot groups I tested after barrel breakin gave me the following goups at 100 yards (about 2 weeks ago) were .581" and .630". Now this is with a 4X12 power scope and new un-fireformed brass. So I am real excited about the 700 VLSS's performance right out of the box.
The only thing I have done to my all stainless, gray laminated stock, Remington 700 VLSS is a trigger job. No bedding job, barrel channel relief or pillar bedding done as yet. It does not appear it will need to be done either. We will see if it holds its point of impact from season to season and after travelling with it.
While on the subject of 223's I never seem to fail to mention a Remington Rifle I bought in 1990. I got the hots for a Remington 700 Police Sniper Special in caliber 223 Remington back when they were new. This Rifle has the 24" barrel and it came out of the box shooting like a Bench Rest Rifle! Using Federal brass, Federal primers, H4895 powder and Sierra 50 gr. Blitz bullets on its first trip to the range I got it sighted in with 5 rounds and the next 15 rounds gave the following 5 shot groups at 100 yards: .362", .293" and .219"! Unbelievable! And this was with a 6.5X20 Leupold scope!
This 223 Rifle was brought on line just before I started doing barrel break in by the way. This Rifle I think is one of the best out of the box shooters I have ever owned! It still shoots wonderfully to this day with that same load. Do not overlook that fine Sierra bullet by the way in your load testing. It is very accurate, very explosive and very inexpensive! What more can you ask for in a bullet!
Good luck with your VLS.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy