Remington is the only company that has given us less and we bought it. Example, the express shotgun. Ever heard of Spartan Gunworks? Go to the www.remington.com and check it out. Looks like Remington is about to do it again. EAA?

Those are Baikal shotguns, made in Russia. The same stuff EAA has been importing.

George

Actually when you get to see one, up close and personal, they aren't bad for the money. The little single barrel trap gun is built like a tank(and looks like one)but for $200 you can't beat the deal. The side by side shotguns are the same ones Savage was importing. Didn't hear much bashing then. I have always found it very difficult to judge the quality of a firearm from a picture.

They have given the market what it has asked for. that is an inexpensive but functional double shotgun at a low price. I agree they arent real pretty and they are a little heavy, but they work. For a backyard, knocking around gun, its a good value

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbok:
Remington is the only company that has given us less and we bought it. Example, the express shotgun. Ever heard of Spartan Gunworks? Go to the http://www.remington.com and check it out. Looks like Remington is about to do it again. EAA?

---

WTF is "LESS" about ANY Remington product?
Explain this to me?

Any American made pump shotgun with machined steel main components costs nearly $500 these days.Have you checked the price of a Jap made Brownign BPS lately or a newly built Ithica m37??

It's not 1975 anymore.If you want a steel recivered US made pump for less than $250 brand new out the door,a Remington Express is what you get.

As to the Baikals,they are honest all steel guns with a lot of handfitting for the $$$.They are plainly finished but well built of steel and walnut.Remington is putting a LOT of $$ into the backing of the Spartan line with parts and service and from what I can tell they have not raised the prices any to do it(based on direct model comparisons of dealer prices).

Remington products MAY not be to your taste in terms of design and features,but I challenge you to actually LOOK at what you are getting for your money. When you compare their guns to other companies products, Remington always provides a pretty damn good value for the money.

Lots of people think Weatherby means high quality. Look at a Weatherby Patrician if you want to see a cheap made shotgun. I needed a butt and forearm for one several years ago and although it had not been out of production that long,they werent available.

A friend brought one of these over asking for my opinion the other day. 20gauge 26" with swapable chokes...not rem chokes though. I was impressed with its handling, pointability and material for what he paid at Kmart....the only issue that I could find was the shape of the pistol grip...but thats minor. I wonder If they are going to offer it with a English style straight stock. This will make a nice no worry grouse and waterfowl piece...for those times when you know ahead that you are going to be hunting is some rough conditions...IMHO

Yeah Remington products really stink. For instance I was at the range today checking the zero on my scope on a Remington 700 VLS in 223.

I shot at 4 targets, three shots each. I was also checking out a load I put together, of 20 grains of SR 4759, with a 40 grain Sierra HP. I chronographed it at 3700 fps yesterday in a Ruger 77 Vt. I loaded up 20 rounds today and decided to see how they would perform in my Remington 700 VLS.

That lousy Remington rifle, only gave me one hole in each one of the targets at 100 yds!

To top it off I was shooting a 223 and that dumb rifle gave me ONE 26 caliber hole instead of three 22 caliber holes! ON ALL 4 targets.

Yeah this is the LAST Remington I am ever going to purchase! 26 caliber holes out of three shots from a 22 caliber! What is wrong with those guys?????

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Seafire/B17G: Well said there seafire! I was at the range last week and did some sight in verifications myself! For instance my Remington 700 VSS in caliber 17 Remington (limited edition of 1,000 of these came out a couple years ago!) could only manage a .303" group there at 100 yards! I only fired three shots at that target - after all with that humongous spread there was no sense in continuing - was there? But at least that group was EXACTLY where it was printing last year! Must be something wrong with the bedding or the barrel of that Remington doncha think?
Then I had to suffer through the indignity of a recently purchased Remington 700 Varminter in caliber 220 Swift! Its the VSSF model so that problably explains why it could only shot those Varmint type bullets into two 5 shot groups there at 100 yards that averaged near exactly .500"! Yeah I better sell that dog!
I have bought a bunch of these Remingtons in the last couple of years that just unexplainedly keep giving me really small groups! I know its just a fluke and all but I kinda like the looks of them and the clean lines!
I don't know maybe I should sell them all and try and buy some of those Varminters that come right from the factory and for only five to six hundred dollars and these are the ones that win all those Bench Rest competitions!
Yeah thats what I will do!
What was the name of those factory Guns that win those BR Matches again?
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

With groups that bad maybe you 2 should ought to rethink your reloading technique's as well! derf

The rest of the story is that dealers who have been selling the Baikals or EAA's are a bit ticked at this also! They had shotguns that they could sell for $359.00-$459.00 and now the very same guns are "dealer priced" at $570-$620.00! So if you like the shotgun, go try to find some of them at the old price wherever you can. As far as Remington goes, my blood runs John Deere and Remington green!!! GHD

I've got a Ruger Redlabel and a Beretta O/U.
I looked at the Remington import O/U and thought that the Russians did a pretty decent job for less than half the price of the Ruger or
Beretta. It was a little heavy but not too bad.
I am glad that Remington is importing them and most importantly supporting them with spare parts. This gives the guy who doesn't want to or can't plunk down $1200 plus for an O/U a chance to own a decent less expensive one.

As for Remington guns I have some small dislikes of their rifle extractors and the sweated on bolt handles, but other than that they make a good rifle for the money.

As for Remington 870's, I have two express models which are dull finished and I am glad of that, it saved me over $200 bucks in gunsmith fees that I would have had to pay for a bead-blast and blue on the two guns. I DON'T like shiney guns for hunting. I also would not hesitate to buy a decent used Rem 870 because Remington has the parts at reasonable prices to bring them to functioning condition if needed.

From what I have read on these forums alot of us are gun snobs. I like fine rifles but I am not embarrassed to take my NEF single shot out of the Jeep to pot a coyote. The NEF is a good
VALUE and it works well. Is it the ultimate example of a fine rifle? NO! Does it do the job? YES!

Contentious discussions on these forums serve little purpose other than to help someone's ego or to show rage. If we are going to vent, let's
do it with humour not vindictiveness.

GHD,

Repesctfully you are wrong about those Baikal prices!!

I know, I work in a Gunshop part time and am able to check prices online at a half dozen distributors which carry the Spartan line.On most every model I can name the dealer price of those Spartan guns (overunders included) is LESS than $425.

Which makes perfect sense ,because when you simply GO to Spartan's web site at:

www.spartangunworks.com

you can plainly see that most of their Over unders are $400 - $500 MSRP.

I will also bet Walmart will have many of the Spartan over unders at less than $450 on the rack with sinlge trigger and ejectors.

The "price increase" crap is a Rumor started by EAA and dealers to sell their remaining stock of guns.

I don't know if Remington will service the Baikals any beter than EAA did(and it would not tkae much) but I do not think spreading unfounded rumors about Spartan's prices is very helpfull to anyone here.

Old Elk Hunter: I disagree with your sweeping "contention" that "contentious discussions" are only good for "rage release" and ego tripping"!
Let me start at the beginning. A "non-contentious discussion" Is a sermon! The leader starts the discussion and everyone else falls in line and repeats the topic and text without deviation! I don't think so!
A non-contentious discussion simply means EVERY ONE agrees with what you say!
That ain't gonna happen!
Especially when some one resorts to specious and ambiguous attempts at slandering BIG GREEN (Remington Arms Company)!!!
So pardon me if I opt out of your "lets just all get along", "happy words only" mindset!
A happy words only, non-contentious, don't anyone dare disagree "discussion" serves no purpose, makes no sense and does not interest me! If someone is slinging B.S. and I choose to call them on it and present my proof - I am going to do it without even the slightest concern about your "concerns"! Especially when it will prevent someone, perhaps a not so experienced person as myself, from being unduly influenced by the aforementioned B.S.!
Sorry, I choose to opt out of your "happy words only" scenarios!
Having said that I have reviewed this thread and I find no "rage" or "extended ego trips" in evidence here what so ever!
Me thinks thou does protest in vain!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG,

If your reread ALL of "Old Elk Hunter's" post I think you will see he was not talking about you (or your post) at all.Really.

Judging from the good things he said about Remington guns(all true),first post here on this thread (basically Remington trying to "screw" us shooters?)

Remingtons are not perfect(no factory gun really could be).But for most of the uses we will ever put them to as shooters,they come pretty darn close...

The funny thing is I went back and looked a some of "Jbock's" prior posts on ARF.He is a Remington m700 owner and apparently likes them!perhaps he thinks the recent guns are crap? I don't know.Except for the J-locks ,they look about the same to me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sharpsman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbok:
Remington is the only company that has given us less and we bought it. Example, the express shotgun. Ever heard of Spartan Gunworks? Go to the http://www.remington.com and check it out. Looks like Remington is about to do it again. EAA?

---

WTF is "LESS" about ANY Remington product?
Explain this to me?

Any American made pump shotgun with machined steel main components costs nearly $500 these days.Have you checked the price of a Jap made Brownign BPS lately or a newly built Ithica m37??

It's not 1975 anymore.If you want a steel recivered US made pump for less than $250 brand new out the door,a Remington Express is what you get.

As to the Baikals,they are honest all steel guns with a lot of handfitting for the $$$.They are plainly finished but well built of steel and walnut.Remington is putting a LOT of $$ into the backing of the Spartan line with parts and service and from what I can tell they have not raised the prices any to do it(based on direct model comparisons of dealer prices).

Remington products MAY not be to your taste in terms of design and features,but I challenge you to actually LOOK at what you are getting for your money. When you compare their guns to other companies products, Remington always provides a pretty damn good value for the money.

---

Yep. Most of the time. I will not buy some companies offerings because you are buying "The Name." Browning is only one of these companies. At least 25% of the cost is associated with the fancy gold "B.". Oh and they sometimes throw in a keychain.

I have felt this way about Remington bolt-action rifles for years, even owning a couple. They shoot very well, but they cost very much.

I can buy a Savage bolt-gun for 30-40% less money than a comparable Remington and it will shoot at least as well. That money translates into an upgraded scope, better binoculars, or alot more reloaded ammo. Sometimes all three.

Animals don't "fall down dead" when you pull out that fancy, expensive rifle. First you gotta actually SHOOT THEM!

sharpsman, I went to the shop, got out the distributor order book this AM(2/7/05) and looked up the "dealer cost" on the .410 and 28 guage O/U.......$610.36!!!!! Last month there were some of the Baikals in the store for $449.00 retail! Now I did look up the S/S and they didn't take much of a big jump but the small guage guns(which were fairly popular in this shop) jumped severely! Only difference is that the Spartans have a chrome or nickel plated receiver(or some such) and the writing on the bottom of the receiver is changed to reflect the Remington deal. GHD

Sorry fellows, I teach school and my job is to encourage creative thinking with intelligent comment. Mission accomplished in this post. I have Browning, Savage, and yes 3 Remington rifles. Oh, by the way my J-lock LVSF is my most accurate. I have also owned 2 Baikal shotguns which are fine guns for the money. I just wanted to see what everyone thought of Remington taking on Baikal's. As for the comment of getting less with the 870's, Remington is the only company that has made their guns uglier and we keep buying them. I have owned many 870's in the past and my last was an express. Thanks for your comments.

just a side note about those great remingtons. I have owned two.

one was a m700 bdl in 7um that was a okay rifle it shot about 2inches at 100 with factory ammo. like a fool I traded it for a model 7 in 7mm saum it also was about a 2 inche at 100 gun.

the problem is every time you fired it you had to prize the bolt up to eject the shell.

after taking it to two different remington repair centers that never did fix it i traded that P O S for a tikka t3 that had every thing the m7 did plus a dm and rings that worked perfect and was more accurate to boot. it was about 150.00 chaeper also.

I think rem makes good guns but i also think they are over priced for what you get. to me they are no better than a tikka or cz yet they cost more.

GHD,

Well,I'm sorry that your dealer has a catalog that is wrong!
Look at the freaking MSRP prices on Spartan's OWN website!Those prices are not even close!

Aslo,there are at least THREE other distibutor websites I have looked at and NONE of them show a DEALER price for ANY of the 28g and .410 Spartan O/U guns that is over $425- dealer.


I'll tell you what GHD,give me the NAME of the distributor who's catalog you are quoting so I can check this out myself.I will call them on my dime to find out.

Flippy: A Hunting partner and I just this past hour returned from the local gunshop. He was interested in a walk-around type Varmint Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger. He wanted my opinion and moral support and I was glad to go along. We intensely checked out the Remington 700 SPS Model that was there and tag priced at $420.00! This fiberglass (synthetic) stocked Rifle has a matte finished action and barrel. The barrel was 24" long and of a medium heavy sporter weight. My friend liked it a lot (as did I!) and quietly decided to get it as soon as his mad money stash is up to it!
Taking your posting as "gospel" and the Savages you prefer then correlate to me please the similar Savage model you can get for 40% less! Or for $252.00!
I do not recall seeing a comparable Savage for that amount!
I do know my many recent Remington 700 Rifle purchases (including a 204 Ruger) have all shot extremely well (with only a self inflicted trigger job having been done on them)!
Now I know Savage Rifles most often shoot well but they are ugly, clunky, awkward things and the triggers do not suit my tastes! Even the cheap looking and clunky so called accu-triggers offend me - and they add considerably to the cost of the aforementioned Savages.
I do very much prefer Remingtons to the Savages when all things are considered (including looks, aesthetics, resale value, accuracy, triggers and etc).
I saw a heavy barreled Savage bolt action laminate at a Sportsmans Warehouse store a week ago and it was priced right along with the Remington 700 heavy barreled laminate and I MUCH prefered the looks and feel of the Remington. No 40% discount on the Savage in that heads up comparison with the comparable Remington!
Maybe you could re-evaluate your 40% savings on comparable Rifles - observation.
I do not think it is valid.
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I would say thet model for model (all else being equal)the Savages are 20% cheaper than a Remington -AT BEST.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Flippy: A Hunting partner and I just this past hour returned from the local gunshop. He was interested in a walk-around type Varmint Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger. He wanted my opinion and moral support and I was glad to go along. We intensely checked out the Remington 700 SPS Model that was there and tag priced at $420.00! This fiberglass (synthetic) stocked Rifle has a matte finished action and barrel. The barrel was 24" long and of a medium heavy sporter weight. My friend liked it a lot (as did I!) and quietly decided to get it as soon as his mad money stash is up to it!
Taking your posting as "gospel" and the Savages you prefer then correlate to me please the similar Savage model you can get for 40% less! Or for $252.00!
I do not recall seeing a comparable Savage for that amount!
I do know my many recent Remington 700 Rifle purchases (including a 204 Ruger) have all shot extremely well (with only a self inflicted trigger job having been done on them)!
Now I know Savage Rifles most often shoot well but they are ugly, clunky, awkward things and the triggers do not suit my tastes! Even the cheap looking and clunky so called accu-triggers offend me - and they add considerably to the cost of the aforementioned Savages.
I do very much prefer Remingtons to the Savages when all things are considered (including looks, aesthetics, resale value, accuracy, triggers and etc).
I saw a heavy barreled Savage bolt action laminate at a Sportsmans Warehouse store a week ago and it was priced right along with the Remington 700 heavy barreled laminate and I MUCH prefered the looks and feel of the Remington. No 40% discount on the Savage in that heads up comparison with the comparable Remington!
Maybe you could re-evaluate your 40% savings on comparable Rifles - observation. I do not think it is valid.
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I said, "I can buy a Savage bolt-gun for 30-40% less money than a comparable Remington and it will shoot at least as well."
NOT 40% across the board.

Here is the comparo fron one website (Gallery of Guns.com) These would be closer to the "top of the line" for both brands. Both are same caliber/type/etc. For all puposes identical.

Remington 700VSSF 22-250, SS fluted barrel, SYNTHETIC stock, etc.
MSRP $1025.
Actual $830.

Savage Arms 12LP 22-250, SS fluted barrel,
LAMINATED WOOD STOCK, ACCU-TRIGGER, etc.
MSRP $778.
Actual $632.

That is a 25% difference last time I did the math (or $200.) While you can shop around and find good deals, and you should, if you look at anything above the bottom-basement models this is almost always true.

While the Savage has a LAMINATED WOOD stock AND an Accu-Trigger, the Remington has neither. The wood stock looks better than the black plastic stock on the Rem. If you add the laminated stock to the Remington (LSSS version) it costs about $70 more. To add a trigger that works as good as the Savage's would be at least $150.

So I guess it depends if you want the "better looking" gun OR the better value. Oh wait, THAT"S THE SAME GUN. Or you could get the Remington.

I like Remingtons, I OWN Remingtons. I ALSO like guns that shoot better, look better and cost less, even if it is ONLY 25% less.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Flippy: A Hunting partner and I just this past hour returned from the local gunshop. He was interested in a walk-around type Varmint Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger. He wanted my opinion and moral support and I was glad to go along. We intensely checked out the Remington 700 SPS Model that was there and tag priced at $420.00! This fiberglass (synthetic) stocked Rifle has a matte finished action and barrel. The barrel was 24" long and of a medium heavy sporter weight. My friend liked it a lot (as did I!) and quietly decided to get it as soon as his mad money stash is up to it!
Taking your posting as "gospel" and the Savages you prefer then correlate to me please the similar Savage model you can get for 40% less! Or for $252.00!
I do not recall seeing a comparable Savage for that amount! No 40% discount on the Savage in that heads up comparison with the comparable Remington!
Maybe you could re-evaluate your 40% savings on comparable Rifles - observation.
I do not think it is valid.
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Remington 700SPS $420.
Savage/Stevens M200 $270.

Hmmmmmm? You were right, it's ONLY 36% less.

Both of these guns are ugly, HOWEVER if you were going to spend $250 on a scope for the Remington, with the Savage and the same budget you could buy a $400 scope.

I don't work for Savage, and I don't own any Savage bolt guns right now, I DO OWN a couple of Remington's. If you feel Rem's are better, great. If you don't, fine.

I have shot many Savages and Remingtons. Facts are facts and numbers are numbers. For the same total dollars I would rather have a Savage and a much higher quality scope.

If you don't, fine.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsman:
I would say thet model for model (all else being equal)the Savages are 20% cheaper than a Remington -AT BEST.

Yes, you MAY BE CORRECT (however, you are not, see above). I sell used and new guns every single day.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, on a $1000. rifle, only 20% less still equals $200 less money. Or as I said, a $200 better scope .

Flippy,

I work part time in a gunshop too.

There are not too many Savage OR Remingtons that cost over $800 in a gunshop for the rifle alone.So 100 or so more to own a better rifle is not that much to ask.

Also the Savage will ALWAYS have SAVAGE stamped on it.The resale value on a high end Savge bolt gun SUCKS because %90 of the rifle buying public thinks of any used modern made Savage bolt rifle as being a CHEAP GUN,$300-350 used TOPS.I do not consider a $600 plus Savage bolt gun a very good investment if I get screwed when I try to resell it.

Are you actually going to try to tell be that some bargain basement walmart special Savage/Stevens economy model is even in the same league as a m700 SPS??

First of all the Remingotn SPS has a DROP FLOORPLATE! The Stevens 200(like most Savage bolt guns is a top loader with ind magazine.

The Remingtons are avalable in WSM cals as well as .204 Ruger- the Stevens m200 is not.

The Savage has a cheesy looking battleship grey colored stock-the Remington does not.

The Remington has a Decelorator type gel pad on it -the Stevens 200 does not.


If you are going to make it a FAIR comparison compare the same models,like the m200 Stevens to the Remington ADL synthetic.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsman:
Flippy,

I work part time in a gundhop too.

There are not too many Savage OR Remingtons that cost over $800 in a gunshop for the rifle alone.So 100 or so more to own a better rifle is not that much to ask.

Also the Savage will ALWAYS have SAVAGE stamped on it.The resale value on a high end Savge bolt gun SUCKS because %90 of the rifle buying public thinks of any used modern made Savage bolt rifle as being a CHEAP GUN,$300-350 used TOPS.I do not consider a $600 plus Savage bolt gun a very good investment if I get screwed when I try to resell it.

Are you actually going to try to tell be that some bargain basement walmart special Savage/Stevens economy model is even in the same league as a m700 SPS??

First of all the Remingotn SPS has a DROP FLOORPLATE! The Stevens 200(like most Savage bolt guns is a top loader with ind magazine.

The Remingtons are avalable in WSM cals as well as .204 Ruger- the Stevens m200 is not.

The Savage has a cheesy looking battleship grey colored stock-the Remington does not.

The Remington has a Decelorator type gel pad on it -the Stevens 200 does not.


If you are going to make it a FAIR comparison compare the same models,like the m200 Stevens to the Remington ADL synthetic.

THIS IS WHAT I SAID:

quote:

Yep. Most of the time. I will not buy some companies offerings because you are buying "The Name." Browning is only one of these companies. At least 25% of the cost is associated with the fancy gold "B.". Oh and they sometimes throw in a keychain.

I have felt this way about Remington bolt-action rifles for years, even owning a couple. They shoot very well, but they cost very much.

I can buy a Savage bolt-gun for 30-40% less money than a comparable Remington and it will shoot at least as well. That money translates into an upgraded scope, better binoculars, or alot more reloaded ammo. Sometimes all three.

Animals don't "fall down dead" when you pull out that fancy, expensive rifle. First you gotta actually SHOOT THEM

If you work in a gunshop, you should also know to "SHOP AROUND." I buy from MANY different suppliers and I shop around for the best deal for my customer. I tell EVERY SINGLE PERSON that comes in, if they feel my prices are too high, SHOP AROUND.

I called one of my MANY suppliers and asked what the RECOMMENDED DEALER PRICE was for the two guns mentioned above.

Remington's RECOMMENDED DEALER COST on their rifle is $854.44. Sugg. dealer cost on the Savage is $661.00. ACTUAL DEALER COST IS $775.00 on the Rem and $590.00 on the Savage.

Hmmmmmmm? $193.64 suggested and $185.00 actual difference. I payed attention in math class and that sounds awfully close to $200 to me.

So the next time I AM buying a rifle and "a better one" costs ONLY $100 more, are YOU going to pay the difference for me? After all, $100 is not that much to ask.

By the way the 700ADL Synthetic sells for around $339. That is STILL $70 more than the Savage. The "710" Rem sells for around $300 and I wouldn't buy one of these if YOU PAID ME. As for the "POS" Savage. I never said the Savage was a better rifle than the Remington.

What I said was:
Both of these guns are ugly, HOWEVER if you were going to spend $250 on a scope for the Remington, with the Savage and the same budget you could buy a $400 scope.

I like Remingtons, I OWN Remingtons. I ALSO like guns that shoot better, look better and cost less, even if it is ONLY 25% less.
(I didn't say what brand, just guns)

Animals don't "fall down dead" when you pull out that fancy, expensive rifle.
First you gotta actually SHOOT THEM!

I usually present the facts and let MY CUSTOMERS DECIDE.

Remington is discontinuing the 700ADL.
It is being replaced by the 700SPS.