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Ok we have all heard the drama about listing PDs in some areas, and I think it's just a matter of time. I am really hoping against it, but I think it's a bit of an uphill battle. I think the public and ranchers should be able to decide the PDs fate. I want to ask all of you to not kill everyone you see in a town. Be selective shoot 10 or 20 or 30 and move on to another town. Prairie dogs are a cornerstone species. They are preyed upon by eagles, badgers, swift fox, red fox, coyotes, hawks, owls, and other prediators. They also eat different plants than cattle, deer, and antelope do. Next time your in PD country and you see a town with 20 cows standing in the middle of it, youlll know why. It's because the PDs improve cattle forage by eating things cattle don't like. I have killed hundreds of prairie dogs in my life. And I am sure I will kill some more. But this 250 a day or 500 a day shooting is kind of out of hand. Go out shoot 150 over a weekend and go home. Some ranchers hate them, and some love them. It all depends on how they were raised. I grew up on a ranch and we had sheep, cattle, and prairie dogs. I was tought to hate them. And for a large part of my life I did hate them. But the more I look into it the more I see that they are benificial to both game and nongame species. So all I am asking is that you give them a break. Shoot a few and leave quite a few more. Practice good game conservation. | ||
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 I see a lot of food for thought for a mature mind in what you have to say. Many years ago, after just killing a fare number of PDs. I sat there and asked myself why I had done that. Never did come up with any meaningful answer.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I am with you Roger, not saying don't shoot them! Just don't shoot them all. A good friend of mine became a biologist for the BLM, and we were talking one day bout how maturity brings on different views. He brought up Prarie dogs and I kind of thought we would end up dissagreeing. Ends up we both now feel the same. The same guy that sat next to me as we both shot hundreds in one day in our youth. One of those really hard ones to swallow is 200 years ago there were 80,000,000 bison on the plains, a similar number of pronghorns, and probably more prairie dogs than stars in the sky. Those same plains are for the most part gone, and there is no way they would support the same number of cattle torn apart like they are. The bison are domesticated, the pronghorn number less than 2,000,000 and the praire dogs are pushed into little pockets on public land and those few ranches that will tolerate them. I'll still shoot a few, but not too many. | |||
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It takes really intensive shooting to significantly impact long term prairie dog numbers in a healthy town. Other factors like poisoning and disease are much more formidable than shooting. However, I don't disagree with D99 on over shooting. A town should be hunted in a given season only to the extent that it can recover in the normal cycle. Prairie dogs are BOTH a keystone and desirable species AND a renewable resource. | |||
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I'll agree with not shooting out a town but you're pushing it a bit. As Stonecreek mentioned, disease has much more to do with decimating a dog town than shooting does. Little pockets on public land? You haven't been off the road on public land. There are plenty of them if you go look. Places (most on private land, admittadly) I shot 25 years ago outside of Billings, MT still have a bunch of sage rats with no reduction in numbers. If anything the dog towns have grown. Same thing for other places in Eastern MT. Finally, when you quote numbers like 80,000,000 bison you really should check your sources. It doesn't matter if it came from a book, check the book's sources to the deepest level. Enviros and greenies start mentioning these numbers with little or no basis in fact, same as the hogwash that prairie dogs are now reduced to "2% of their former range" (one that I heard recently). These numbers are mentioned in law suits and are regarded as fact. Ask any rancher who's a second/third generation operator...its a load of crap. By the way, why does it matter that there were 80,000,000 buffalo? People (including you and me) have replaced buffalo. Other species have grown dramaticially in the last 100/200 years (turkey, white tail, etc.). It's sad that the old days are gone, but all old days are gone at some point in time. Cattle do eat some of the grasses that prairie dogs eat. Fact. I appreciate that you grew up on a ranch, but it must have had some interesting p-dogs. Many of the towns I hunt have little or no grass between the holes, I don't even know what they eat. I often see cattle walking in and through dog towns, but to suggest that they graze there because the p-dogs somehow benefit the grass is really, really reaching. In over 25 years of shooting ground squirrels and praire dogs in Montana I have never, ever seen cattle purposely grazing in a dog town. They seem to prefer areas that actually have grass. I'll take the word of those who have lived around the critters for a few generations over some biologist who's looking for some funding to keep his job. Same goes for "facts" about elephants from white folk in the US vs. the feelings that black African's have about them. I shoot prairie dogs because its fun, gets me away from people into the best land the USA has to offer and because the ranchers like me to shoot them and give me access to hunt antelope. I can totally see people who were raised on Disney and who don't know the realities of ranching and raising meat and grain thinking its morbid. If you don't like to shoot as many of them, good. You don't need to guilt others into sharing your opinion with bias and questionable data. | |||
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I stayed for a week on a 400,000 acre [they measure it is sections] ranch in South East Montana in 1984 and 1988. The last time I was there, the ranch hands were on all terrain vehicles [ATVs] with poison grain dispensers. They would ride over a prairie dog hole and drop some grain down it. This ranch had mainly been for sheep, but the law on 1080 poison let coyotes and bobcats out of control. The law on shooting golden eagles from a plane was a problem with immature bald eagles. So they switched to all cattle. But the prairie dog infestation was eating the grass. So I did my part, and tried to shoot every prairie dog I saw, to help those ranchers make a living. | |||
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I’ve only been shooting PD’s in the Dakotas for 5 years and we shoot everyone that will pock its head out far enough to get a good shot. I have sat on one stand all day to go back the next and you couldn’t tell we had even killed one. I too shoot them because it’s fun, all those targets and you don’t even have to go out and reset them. I truly wouldn’t do it if it looked as though they were dwindling. I go in the early part of the year and the ranchers tell me they have people shooting all summer until the weather changes. So I don’t think we are really doing much to control them. I also have to agree were the towns are really established there isn’t much grass at all. There is a spot down the road from one of the places I shoot that had a very small town on it 5 years ago and now it’s close to 50 acres I now this doesn’t sound like much but it only had 5 or 6 mounds 5 years ago. The only way we even noticed it in the first place was I pulled over to look at a map a rancher gave me to get to one of his places that had over two square miles of PD’s ( what a great day that was). | |||
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mt Al, We had sheep and cattle and prairie dogs and we did the best to shoot or poison everyone we had. A lot of ranchers will tell you that 1 priaire dog is 1/10th of an animal unit. This is full on horseshit. An animaal unit is one steer, bull, or horse. 5 sheep, a cow and calf pair. If anything a prairie dog is 1/100th of an animal unit. Ok, so you don't swallow the 80,000,000 bison story from the Zoologist and Paleo guys, that's fine that's your 2 cents. But those "millions" of buffalo could not have exhisted with the number of prairie dogs that were alive in the 1800s by your way of thinking. There wouldn't have been anything for them to eat. Many ranchers will tell you that they eat every piece of green fodder growing on the plains. Also bullshit. If you want to see a piece of ranchland destroyed in now time double the cow capicity and let them run wild. Cattle eat everything, horses are worse. Bison are also a wide mouth grazer and they will do damage, but in the 1800s there were no fences to keep them shut in. As far as my knowlege and my quotes, what do you have? I know, because the scientific evidence is there they are benificial to both cattle, wildlife, and birds of prey. If we agree to dissagree then fine. But If I can keep some of these guys from killing off a whole town for the sake of non-resettable target practice then I will sleep better at night. You want to fight about bowhunting next? Send me a PM! Because I hate bowhunting, but that's another discussion! | |||
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Having shot prairie dogs for over 20 years and many of the same towns for 2 and 3 times/year it is not possible to "shoot out" a prairie dog town, you are lucky just to contain the growth of the town. As for the argument about the damage a pd does, the rancher is correct and the statement about doubling the amount of cows and see what kind of damage they will do is very uninformed about how a rancher grazes his pastures. You can pick and choose how many cows you have grazing on a pasture and how long you allow the animals to graze. You cannot rotate the pd town to a different pasture when they have overgrazed the area they are occupying, when the pd gets done, there is nothing but bare dirt. My knowledge is limited to living in the real world, having raised cattle and rotated pasures and spending many hours in pastures occupied by pd towns trying to help a friend control the furry tailed rats that are eating the grass that is meant for his cows so he can feed his family. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and spend $500000 on some pasture and let the pd grow unchecked, in about 5 years you won't need any scientific study bullshit to see the errors of your ways. | |||
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Wow..D99... I believe in leaving some for seed, but your getting a bit carried away with this. PD's are really neat, but I don't look at them like a covey of quial. Sure, I bet you can shoot a PD town out, but other than maybe a rancher that might have a problem with them...who would want to do that? I sure would'nt. I like to see healthy populations. I don't get to make as many trips east as I would like too. But when I do, I do some shooting. The ranchers that let me shoot say git um, and thats what I do. I have seen almost no impact what so ever on return trips on the dog towns I shoot on. I'm also sure I am not the only one shooting on them. I always spend a day or 2 looking for more towns on my trips to pd country, and really don't have a problem finding more healthy towns... As for your grass issues...What grass? Most the towns I see are bare. One could only wonder what they are eating. I think a little regulation in areas that have some plagued towns is a good thing. But that is another subject. So is the fact that ther is a growing population of pd shooters. Or the really big problem that we have facing us. Those who don't want us shooting these colony varmints...I'm out! | |||
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Forgetting all the other issues  in this thread( bison, grass, and rancher,etc.) Does any one have fault with this philosophy, and why?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Fault no, in practice yes. Is the guy that saves up his bucks, loads shells, tunes his guns and gear for 51 weeks a year, drives for a 1000 miles one way for one week of pd shooting supposed to shoot 150 in a weekend and then go home? In the last few years I have been lucky enough to connect with some ranchers that have agreed for the time being not to poison. One of the deals that is understood by both parties is that I am to shoot as many as I can on THEIR ranches. If I shot 150 and then went home the ranchers would conveniently find another party to try to control the expanding towns. I am doing a service for them and they are being more than generous to me. Jim Please be an ethical PD hunter, always practice shoot and release!! Praying for all the brave souls standing in harms way. | |||
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This statement really gets my blood boiling. Someone who has never hunted pds will read this and ASSUME that pd shooters set up on a town and shoot EVERY pd they see. This is simply not the case and you know it.
Yes it is a cornerstone species. Abandoned pd burrows offer shelter for several other non-game species besides. And pds will eat other forage that cattle won't. They usually start eating it when they have eaten all the grass and dug up the roots and consumed them also.
This statement leads those that have never done it to believe pd shooters kill 500 per day. Has it been done by some, no doubt. Is it the norm for most pd shooters, absolutely not. For most it is a "social" event, not something that is "out of hand".
(blood boiling again) 30 years ago I started shooting pds in northeastern Sodak. The towns I shot are gone. Poisoned. I went to south central Sodak and shot on some nice private dog towns. They are gone. Poisoned. The ones on the Res are still there though. They don't poison them. They shoot the hell out of them most of the summer and they are doing very well. I found some nice private towns in western Nodak and shot them for half a dozen years. They are gone. Poisoned. I am now in Mt. and I can tell you what will happen to the towns on the ranches I am shooting now. As soon as I stop shooting on those ranches they will poison them. I am practicing the best game conservation there is with respect to the pds and all the other non-game species that depend on the pds. I have done everything I can, and provided what I can for the rancher in a desperate hope he doesn't poison. Jim Please be an ethical PD hunter, always practice shoot and release!! Praying for all the brave souls standing in harms way. | |||
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Jim, I think it's great that those ranchers don't poison. Poisoning has shown to kill non-target species just as easily as it does prairie dogs. And some of those non-target species are. Burrowing owls, swift fox, birds of prey, rattle snakes (another western necessary evil), bull snakes (a non-evil but very necessary animal), badgers, coyotes, as well as killing an entire town. If this town is far enough away from another colony it maybe dead forever if not the forseable future. As far as you driving 1000 miles to shoot PDs once a year for a rancher. I think that's great that you enjoy it. If your shooting on private land and the rancher doesn't poison. Then your right you can afford to kill a few more. But don't use the excuse that you don't live in PD country for killing thousands. | |||
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I didn't suggest or imply that there were too many pds around to support a healthy buffalo population. I'm suggesting that, according to multi-generation ranchers, there were NOT as many pds as the enviros would have us beleave.
How is it then that many prairie dog towns are pure dirt with no vegitation other than at the edge of the town? Were your ranch's pd towns different than most of Montana's pd towns? I don't need research (other than my own two eyes) to see that pd towns leave an area devoid of vegitation. I'm not suggesting that this is bad for the eco-system or that I'd rather see cows than rats (quite the contrary!), pds are more "natural" than cows. Overgrazing by cattle, horses and buffalo, along with poor range management, is a different, though related, issue. Couldn't agree more about horses, my meager pastures are proof of that.
You've got me here. I have nothing other than experience and doubt about past population estimates by "scientists" who's funding is based on grants from environmentalists. I could be way off. Pds are obviously beneficial to birds of prey, especially after the fields are littered with thier bodies!! Sorry about your feelings about bowhunting! | |||
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You have set up a good arrangement with your ranchers and that's fantastic. I don't know why your blood would be boiling. And I am sure you know a few folks, and I know far too many that will sit and shoot a town dead. Especially those guys that don't live in PD country. | |||
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D99, I do not know anyone that can shoot a town dead. There is a 4 acre dog town located just off the deck of the ranch foremans house. He gets up in the morning, takes his coffee out on the deck and sits there with his 223, drinks coffee and shoots pds. He has been doing that for the last 5 years and the little town is expanding. Shooting a town dead can't be done. If they are shot too hard they will hunker down until you leave. If they see anything that looks like a human or a vehicle they take cover and only the less wary ones will come out. Shooting those will effectively make the town increasingly harder to shoot. I know several towns that are this way and they tend to stay that way for many years. I do know what a town looks like that was hit by the plague though. Jim Please be an ethical PD hunter, always practice shoot and release!! Praying for all the brave souls standing in harms way. | |||
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Jim, It is possible to shoot a town dead. A town 5 acre town yes, a 20 acre town probably not. I just want those folks who hunt them on public land to leave some for seed. | |||
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I agree with D99. It would be very hard to shoot out a 20 acre town. I was at a town yesterday, about 20 acres, dogs everywhere at first, but after a few rounds they were gone. They get wild and that makes it almost imposible to shoot out a town. | |||
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I was born and raised in Michigan farm country, so knowing about PDs from birth isn't a part of me. However, I've lived in Colorado since 1978 and seen the natural fluctuations of the species. Areas that have been great for years will suddenly be hit by the plague and be dormant. Then, a sudden repopulation will occur, small at first, then expanding to previous numbers. Shooting out a town has never happened on any of the properties I've hunted. Poisoning is the worst threat. By keeping PDs under control by shooting, the ranchers will hold off on the poisoning. BUT, ONLY IF YOU SHOOT ENOUGH! If not, poisoning occurs with its subsequent effects on other species. Environmental groups, after being faced with incontravertable facts, admitted that only about 25% of the Colorado population of PDs were counted. (See Denver newspaper.) Any town of less than five acres was not even considered...and the towns counted had to be over five acres. I'm not a shooter trying to burn out a barrel, but I will shoot all that I want and have for over 25 years. I want to be able to hunt those properties I now have available for many more years. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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I have to agree with these individuals that it would be next to impossible to shoot out a town I don’t care how small in is. As stated earlier you start shooting and they just stay in there holes longer. To shoot out a town you would most likely have to sit on that town from first light to dark for many days. I would MUCH rather see people shooting them than poisoning (what a cruel way to die). I too have seen the devastation they do to the grass. My first year to the Dakotas to shoot pd’s I sat on maybe a 5 acre place for 2 day, went back the next year, you guessed it, it was still full of pd’s the only problem was is that they had moved the town a bit because where the were there wasn’t a stitch of grass left, OH there were a few hold outs Pdhuntr1 I sure like that clip. Just make my trigger finger itch. Just my 2 cents Covert a liberal and we won’t have all these stupid do gooders that haven’t a clue to what is going on in the REAL world | |||
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Growing up and still being involved in the farming and ranching industry here in Colorado, Prarie dogs are a real nightmare. Anyone who says they do not eat the same grasses and plants that cattle do is just lying to themselves as well as others. Unfortunatly people who read these statements only see the Prarie dog as a cute little zoo animal, and have never seen what they can do to personal property. The last couple of years have seen an explosion in the numbers of towns in Eastern Colorado. I've seen hundres of acers destroyed by Prarie dogs and made them unfit for grazing purposes. If Prarie dogs actually only ate plants that livestock wouldn't eat then you would find more Ranchers and Farmers less upset with the infestation. I've read that adult prarie dogs only have one litter of pups a year. I don't know if that is true or not but I do know that I see pups from early spring to the fall of the year. I know that it doesn't take long for a prarie dog to reach maturity and to start breeding. I do know that they are prolific breeders and it doesn't take long for a few holes to become an out of control town. I have never seen a town shot out as well. And as far as starving other animals that prey upon prarie dogs, I'm sure that they come in behind the shooters and clean up the dead ones. I've been to a town where the hawks came in so thick that we had to stop shooting for fear of accidently hitting one of the hawks feasting on a carcass. It is quite an impressive site to have over 50 hawks circling overhead. | |||
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Maybe we should poison and shoot ALL the birds of prey, that was really big in Elmer Keith's day. There is more to the West than making it safe for cows. If you graze on BLM, National Forest or other Federal land, lease or not, you need to be willing to suck up a bit of grass loss to pds and loose a few calves to predators. If you like to hunt pds, fine. I hunt groundhogs now that I am back east. To say you can't shoot out a species, and species is incorrect. The Shenandoah valley had wolves, cougars, bison, elk and deer. All were gone until WWII period introduced white tailed deer from Wisconsin. Like a previous poster said, leave some for seed, especially if you are on federal land. | |||
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That is a pretty ignorant statement on your part there 390ish. It takes 40 acres of land to sustain one cow calf pair a year where my Father still ranches. Lets say a cow lives for 12 years she will only produce 10 calves in that lifetime. Lets say that calf sells for $500 every year, that is $5000 dollars that cow grosses in her life. So if we lose 40 acres of land to prairie dogs we loose $5000 in 10 years but if we loose 640 acres to prairie dogs we loose $80,000 over 10 years. If you toss in other factors like market flux, droughts, hail storms, blizzards and other acts of God the loss over 10 years would be even more. The Farmer and Rancher has every right to control a prairie dog infestation and predators that prey upon his livestock. That is until you are willing to pay that landowner too keep them on his/her property. I'm sure I could convince a lot of landowners to raise Prairie dogs and coyotes if you are willing to pay them $12.50 per acre per year. My Father Ranches on over 11,000 acres so you would be paying him pretty well every year. I'd be willing to bet he would give up grazing cattle all together. Most farmers and ranchers are willing to work with the State Game and Fish departments to ensure that there are plenty of game animals around for sportsman to enjoy. Black Tail Prairie Dogs are protected in Colorado and it is illegal to shoot them on State and Federal lands. Most land owners would be willing to put up with a few acres of them every year but prairie dogs aren't easily contained to a few acres. | |||
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I don’t know how you can compare rats to cows, bison, deer, antelope, or what ever game animal obviously there is quite a difference between the two. First off people have been trying to eradicate rats (these also can carry plague) for centuries with no avail. Don’t get me wrong if you poison a prairie dog town you could eradicate the whole town. But just sitting on a town and shooting them (MUCH MORE HUMAIN) you aren’t going to eradicate the town. When plague hits a town it can wipe them all out (hence the smaller spread out towns will help them survive). I to this day have yet to see a herd of bison or a deer jump in to a fox hole and wait for the danger to leave. Also these animals have only one maybe two offspring a year. I see you put wolves even in with these pd’s. Wolves themselves are a whole different breed of animal (I guess you missed that too). Their whole livelihood hinges on a hierarchy of the pack if you kill the dominate male/female you can devastate the whole pack and kill one more on the top end of the hierarchy and the pack may not recover, pd’s don’t seem to have this problem. So if you want to compare animal compare them to rates mice or any other rodent. If you don’t have enough predators to control any rodent they will quickly become unmanageable. They (animal rights NUTs) get laws past and then they don’t want to clean up their messes they think everyone else should do that (convert a liberal today and tomorrow will be a better place). I’m glad you posted this thread, it may make some peoples blood boil and mine to an extent, but it sure give me food for thought for the next time I get some animals right NUT to argue with. I have even been able to at least get them to see my side of the story. They (the nuts) may not agree with me but understand they didn’t know the whole story which in turn gives them something to think about. Man did I get long winded | |||
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This issue of The Varmint Hunter Magazine: "A study conducted by Colorato State University examined the competition for grass between cattle and prairie dogs. Where prairie dogs exists in large numbers they can eat so much grass that cattle grazing the same areas can't put on as much weight as those in fields without prairie dogs. The study shows that cattle may gain 38 fewer pounds a season per animal when competing with high prairie dog numbers and this can cost ranchers about $38.00 per head. Where prairie dogs occupy 60 perent of the land, weight gain by cattle can decrease by 14 percent. If prairie dogs cover more than 20 percentof the range, the weight gain of steers will go down by about 6 percent. Below a cettain level, prairie dogs don't eat enough grass to compete with cattle. Small prairie dog colonies that occupy 5 percent or less of the rangeland have no effect on the weight gain of cattle. This study, published in Frontiers in Ecology and the Environment, is the first that determined the economic impact on cattle production by prairie dogs." | |||
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I forgot to mention one thing in my last post. Before I went on my first pd shoot I had people tell me they shot over a thousand rounds a day. I have never had that king of shooting and you would most likely have to be using an auto loader to do it. But with that being said. If you got of one shot per minute that would be 60 rounds an hour 600 in ten hours and that would be with out stoping to pee drink eat or even scratch your back side. Even killing 500 in a day you would most likely have to hit every single rodent you shot at. So you must be one HECK of a shot. Most of the time I'm shooting after about four or five rounds I'm left with mostly 300+ yard shots and to stedy the rifle get on target adjust for the wind I think you get the message. These 500 dead pd in a day is well in my opinion, hores apples. Look even if you have 2,4,or even 6 poeple lined up you are going to cut down on targes to shoot at. They will just hunker down and wait you out. | |||
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Oh boy, don't know whether I want to jump into this fire or not. There's a couple of you guys on the wrong side of the fence. It seems there isn't much of a middle ground going on here. It's either, or. Maybe I can help one side or the other. maybe I'll just p/off both side's. My Dad was raised down by Campo CO. Had cattle up around Pueblo for 50 yrs. Never owned the land, always rented for some reason but, he sold 140 pair about ten yrs ago when he retired from it all. The one thing he says that I don't agree about prairie dogs is: "The plague is the best thing that ever happened to prairie dogs". Seven of us in a bunch hunting in pairs off and on. Shooting one big town covering over a section. At least once a week nearly year around weather permitting never even kept up with their expansion. I know many a time two or three of us would keep pace shot for shot with each other most of the day. Moving when we needed to in order to keep enough dogs within 400yds. We got pretty damned good and I'd not be bragging much to claim 'any p/dog within 400yds was in mortal danger' as we seldom missed out that far. This same town was shot by us like this for about 12 yrs and stayed healthy. Then the leasee changed and the place was posted ONE YEAR. The following year the earlier guy rented it again. There wasn't a single p/dog to be found. This new renter did NOT poison them. The plague got 'em all. The town was dead three yrs then it came back and was fully populated in the third yr. Ok, from this and several other towns I've seen. When they are shot up several times a year, Say maybe 20-30% shot over a season. They'll stay healthy for many years. Yet, when they are not shot at all or only a couple of times. Nearly always within two or three yrs at most they'll be gone from plague. I've seen this many times and places over my 50+ yrs of hunting and shooting. Greg: ok, I think you spoke a bit out of place there about that many shots. The folks rented a place west of Pueblo 25 miles in the middle of a 30,000+- ranch with lots of p/dogs. I was a long haul trucker and only got a few days now and then at home. I was also single, only had 100 cases of .222mag brass from the first 100 I bought. I'd start with 100 rnds, go drive around the edge of the various towns within two miles of the house. When those 100 were shot up, I'd drive back, get another cold beer and load 'em up. Many a day in the long days of summer I shot 400 rounds and that was including loading them inbetween times. I was the only shooter out there at least six yrs. So there was plenty of targets. But, they got pretty well trained to duck and stay ducked when they saw me coming around. I never did make that majic 100/100, but, I did make 98/100 a bunch of time's. I also shot at just about any I could see and hold on well enough and long enough clear out to 79 or 800 yrds. No, I didn't hit many beyond 450, but, I did hit enough to amaze quite a few others and myself many times. Those seven yrs were the most shooting I've ever done on a steady situation too. And no, I never killed off any of the towns out there, no matter how big or small they were. I really haven't seen anyone poison them around this area. I have heard about it up by Colo Springs though. Wish you all well, and wish there wasn't such bitter arguments over such simple things as this to distract from the discussion. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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I can't prove it, but this has been my opinion for many years also.  There is a dog town that I (and others) have been shooting for 5 years. It has been named the Viagra town as I accused the ranch foreman of spreading viagra instead of poisoned oats when I saw the number of young that were produced each year. This town (for what ever reason) is one of the most "active" and healthy towns I have seen. Year after year it has overcome our feeble attempts to control its population and expansion. Jim Please be an ethical PD hunter, always practice shoot and release!! Praying for all the brave souls standing in harms way. | |||
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George; I will agree to a point on the number of shots( had people tell me they shot over a thousand rounds in one day using one rifle and that was a Ruger #1) not in this post)). 400 rounds though is still a lot of shooting using a bolt action rifle. I must be going to the wrong places (but there again the places I do go seem to be heavily used. You have to get there early to get a spot on some days. We are going to look for some new ground though this year though. It was the first or second your we went, the little ones were out and must not have had anyone shooting one at them yet, because we could take two and three off a mound before they would disappear, we shot here for the better part of the day. We went back the next day and you couldn't tell any were even missing. Last year I did put a lot of rounds down range (I didn't keep track, but the AR was sure is fun to shoot at those 400 plus yard shots with quick or fairly quick follow up shots. My AR has a 24in bull barrel and very minimal recoil, which made it nice. My Favorite rifle though is a Rem.700 22-250 with a Holland quick discharge break using Barnes 50gr varminators packed with varget powder. Very deadly on those long range shots. I guess I didn’t mean to get so critical, but I think the conscience is it would be pretty darn tough to shoot out a town. As I’ve said before, just my 2 cent take that and a buck fifty and you might get a cup of coffee. Again I seem to get long winded; maybe I should look in to this problem. | |||
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I mostly hunt ground squirrels and prairie dogs on private land and shoot whichever way the land owner wants me to do. Some ranchers want me to shoot one town over another because they're trying to preserve dogs in some areas or another. Some ranchers want everyone of them killed. It's their land and their rules. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I have started a couple of controversial topics lately and I think this one has probably got the most post. I would have to say I am in the middle on the fence. I like prairie dogs, beleive they are an essential part of our short grass prairie habitat, but I also beleive we should be able to hunt them. I think we should be able to hunt them but not kill them all. Leave a few for seed. The far side of the fence is for shooting as many rounds downrange as possible. " a target you don't have to reset" And I think that's pretty assinine to see them that way. The other side is for not hunting them at all, and thinks they need to be protected or just shouldn't be shot because they are cute. As usual this is one of those controversial things like non-resident rights and bowhunting that gets people pissed off. So I wish that I wouldn't have started this thread. Not because I pissed people off, but because we don't need any more burning bridges in hunting. | |||
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OK D99 If they aren’t targets that you don’t have to reset. What are they?? Alright I guess I shouldn’t have put it that way because some animal rights FREAK will read this and use it for fuel for their fire. I do know one thing though it sure is hard getting all those Little pieces of bone out before you BBQ the little &^&%’s. Bow hunting well I think you would start one *&^% of a forest fire with that thread, NO pun intended. I guess if you don’t want to hear the answer don’t ask the question or start a controversial subject. I think we should be able to hunt them but not kill them all. Leave a few for seed. I think you haven’t been reading anyone’s post!!! Have you shot out a town???????? It doesn’t seem that anyone here has and looks as though there is a lot of first hand knowledge | |||
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I'll do my part not to kill every single prairie dog I see, but it won't be for lack of trying. I see one ... I'm slinging lead. I really like to hunt them right when the pups are starting to venture out of their mounds, usually in mid-May to early June. Why? Because they are stupid then and you can take out the entire litter. Pick out a nice target on the outside of the litter. When you shoot him and he shaking his last jitters the remaining pups will circle around him like man what the hell happened to you. You then select another on the outside of the group and keep doing this until the entire litter is whiped out, which is why I think it is the best time to shoot dogs. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Ahhh, damn, knew I should have gone to bed instead of opening this again!! 99: tell you what, you/we/anyone don't have to make it a point to leave seed. There's gonna be plenty of "seed" left when the shooters have run out of ammo and left. Come back everyday for three months and shoot everyone you can hit and there's still gonna be lot's of seeds left over because after a couple times of getting lot's of 'em shot up. The rest will stay in the hole til you're gone. Those that are still curious will lay in the hole and peek out with just their eyeballs and half inch high forehead sticking out. Try hitting that at 300yds!! That's what "you're calling 'seed'. Far as clearing a litter. I shot 8 pups from one mound while they all ran around wondering what happened, smelling the dead one's. And Momma jumped up and down bitching me out for killing her pups til they were all gone, then I shot her too!! Never shoot the mother hen when she's got milk. I don't want the pups to starve to death. But, I will shoot ALL her pups til I'm sure of it, then I'll kill her. This particular one taught me one hell of a lesson. You fellow p/dog shooters pay attention to this now! At the time I had a deal going where some outfit would pay me $2 for p/d heads and $10 for whole bodies sometimes that weren't shot to hell. But, they were buying all the heads I could provide at that time. I rebuilt my rifle for $460 solely from p/dog heads and not over five bodies. man I wish they'd buy 'em again as I've got two expensive rifles in the works right now. Anyway, when I got done and she was the last one. Decided to go gather up the heads. Her whole back half was pulp, how she was still alive is beyond my comprehension. But, when I reached for her with a plastic bag over my hand and knife in the other hand. She lunged over a foot in the air at me with her mouth wide open just like a housecat does when yawning. Yikes!!! I was afraid to try mashing her with my foot, and wanted her head anyway. Hell she might have jumped up my pant leg or something. So I stepped back and blasted her in the chest with a handgun. THEN I took her head, and kicked the pups down the hole as they only wanted grown one's. Which was too bad as there were a bunch of baby specimens. One time that's about as funny. At a new place I'd never been to before. Crawled under the fence with the rifle slid ahead of me right toward a hole about three feet from the muzzle. One popped up and looked me in the eye about half a second then down he went. Just for the fun/hell of it I got ready and in a little bit here it popped up agaiBANG!!! Guy that was with me about p'd his panties laughing, then he had to tell everyone we met about it. Claimed I couldn't hit 'em til they were settin on the muzzle of my rifle. Hard to miss 'em at three feet!! But, that's another of those: "but once" deals. Come on damnit, I'm trying to share some 'honest humor' with you guys. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Fjold you know it's hard to keep your attenion on the matter at hand with that little clip of your | |||
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I won't get into the moral debate or arguements but from living in South Dakota a fews years now and shooting prairie dogs often I can tell you what I see. A bunch of us get together and shoot and no matter how many dogs we shoot we have not been able to shoot out a town. Infact we are not even able to keep the population in check. The town that is nearest to us gets shot on alomost a weekly basis and the numbers are still climbing. The town has infact doubled in size over the last two years. AS stated above, once they are shot at a little while, they immediately go in when a vehicle pulls up. As far as eating stuff the cows won't eat.....that may be true. They also seem to eat everything the cows do. I have yet to come across a town where the land wasn't stripped clean by the dogs. You can have some nice pasture land all around but where ever the town is located is always bare. | |||
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Thank you for the back up. Better get to shooting a lot more of them or they'll be dying off and you'll have further to drive for the shooting. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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D99; were did you get your information that there were 80,000,000,000 buffalo roaming the American plains??? I just watched a program on the Discovery channel, put on by Mutual of Omaha’s wild kingdom that said there were an estimated 15 million buffalo. I tried to find were you came up with your figure?? I gave your thread some more thought and thought that maybe I was not seeing the whole picture. I agree that the pd’s are a good food source (corner stone) for over predator and the vacated holes are use by borrowing owls, jackrabbits (that I here are a nuisance in other states also) and other little critters. WELL look at it this way, LOOK at ALL those vacant holes for the poor critters to move into. OR weren’t you looking at all the FREE housing for all these other animals. We are just helping disperse the wealth. OH! has anyone tried Barnes new grenade bullets yet? | |||
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If the prairie dogs eat ALL of the vegetation, then why don't they die for lack of food? I think that some of the arguments here from both extremes are overblown: First of all, prairie dog towns cover such a relatively small percentage of a given piece of grazing land that the amount of forage they do or do not consume is de minimus (Latin for "doesn't amount to shit") as far as livestock production. If your 11,000 acre ranch were 100% prairie dog town, or even 10% prarie dog town, then you might be financially damaged by prairie dogs. But the small percentage of the acreage actually impacted by prairie dogs is, except for the most extreme cases, economically insignificant. Second, I think that any of us who have done much prairie dog shooting will agree that they are quick learners. If not, why would you need a 500-yard gun when you could kill hundreds with just a .22 LR? So, numerical damage to a prairie dog colony through solely shooting is self-limiting and not a potential cause of extirpation. Third, as several have observed, disease is a significant threat and comes and goes in somewhat irregular but almost certain cycles. I suppose that if a sudden influx of a pathogen hit a town that had been recently been shot heavily then there would be a chance that the town might not recover, whereas it might have recovered if a larger population left more potential disease survivors. This would be D99's "seed" argument and it deserves some consideration; ie., when shooting gets scarce, move on to another town. Fourth, poisoning is the wildcard factor that, unlike human and animal predators or disease, prairie dog evolution is not prepared to deal with. Land managers who make extensive use of poison are typically uninformed of the cost/benefits of its use. Both the "enviros" and the "shooters" (groups that really can, ought, and do overlap) should agree that sentiments and activities that reduce the incidence of poisoning are good for everyone involved. So, if some rancher can be conviced not to poison as long as hunters will shoot his towns copiously, everyone comes out ahead. This thread has been a great discussion, and I'm glad that people are paying attention to the prairie dog as an environmental, ecological, and recreational asset. | |||
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