My longtime Varminting buddy, fellow Washington Arms Collectors board member, N.R.A. Director, all around good guy and tireless defender of the Second Amendment Irv Benzion recently wrote an article on barrel cleaning for Precision Shooting Magazine (January 2,006 issue).
The well written and lengthy article touched upon his CONCLUSIONS regarding testing of barrel cleaning products during the last several years. Irv only mentions (keeping with his upbeat and optimistic view on life) a couple of products that ACTUALLY worked to remove carbon and copper fouling from Varmint Rifle (and apparently machine gun!!!) barrels out of all the products he tested!
I made numerous copies of his 6 page article (including the $1.00 per page color copy of one page) for my shooting cohorts!
In order to complete his investigation Irv bought an expensive Hawkeye Bore Scope!
I was so impressed with Irv's findings and with his accompanying color photographs in the article that I immediately arranged for purchase of the products that Irv had proved to actually do what they are advertised to do!
Irv EASILY removed carbon from his Varmint Rifles (several of them!) that had been shot between 200 and 300 times and purposely not cleaned during those strings, using one product!
Then he EASILY removed the copper fouling from these same several barrels using another product.
His observations and photographs and repeated results immediately convinced me to buy these two products!
I spoke with some other knowledgeable shooters, Hunters and gun store owners who were also impressed with Irv's article and findings!
I do not want this thread to sound like, or turn into, an advertisement for the two products so I won't mention them by name at this time.
The purpose of my posting is to pose this, kind of philosophical/scientific question, how clean is clean?
Irv proved to me that he can EASILY get his barrels clean (absolutely clean!) right down to bare shiny metal! I was impressed no end by this!
Then, it came to me some days later - WHY?
I mean why get your barrels absolutely clean?
Does that extend barrel life?
Does that increase accuracy?
Does that prevent barrel corrosion?
Does that allow us to shoot longer strings of shots before accuracy fades?
I will see Irv soon and will pose this philosophical/scientific question to him as well as to you all!
We all have run across Rifles that attain and or maintain their best accuracy once they have been "seasoned" so to speak, after a good cleaning! And if one is starting out with an absolutely clean barrel won't the "seasoning" of many Varmint barrels require at least a couple, or a few "fouling shots" to get that Rifle to settle into printing shots in its normal "groove" (P.O.I.) so to speak?
I normally shoot my centerfire Varmint Rifles between 30 and 50 times before setting them aside for another Rifle and my getting around to cleaning it later.
And I freely admit I do not get my barrels absolutely clean when I clean them while on Safari or even when they go into longer term storage (a year plus sometimes) back at home.
The carbon and the copper I do not completely remove from my barrels does not seem to cause me noticeable grief, nor my barrels noticeable harm, so I am curious as to your views on - how clean is clean - regarding Varmint Rifle accuracy and Varmint Rifle maintenance?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I read the whole thread just to find out what the two products were. I don't buy magazines...I readdthe ones in the store, while in the store.... for free.

WHat products are you talking about? Let us know...

Skb2706 & K3yston3: The carbon removing product is Slip 2000tm's Products "Carbon Cutter". The copper fouling remover is Bore Tech's, "Eliminator".
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: By the way skb2706, what do you say to the store manager when he tells you "this is not the public library man" - "buy it then bend it"?
Do you just admit you are to frigging cheap to buy the mags and also, by the way, you want a little more variety brought in each month for your perusal - for free, of course?

I clean my varmint rifle after every shooting session. Varmint hunting for me is the occasional woodchuck in someone's garden, coyotes (both with and without collars), and maybe a fox every once in a while, so most of my shooting with it is on the range. I might not clean it after just one or two shots, but I will not put it into storage with a dirty bore, either.

quote:

I am curious as to your views on - how clean is clean - regarding Varmint Rifle accuracy and Varmint Rifle maintenance?

Well I used to think I was getting my rifles pretty clean I was wrong. I have changed my cleaning routine in the last 6 months and I clean much more often than I used to. I have been using Butch's bore shine and it has given me much better results than any of the cheap crap I used to use before. There are for sure products that probably work as well or better with less effort but I don't mind putting in some extra elbow grease to get my rifles clean.

At the range I clean after 10-20 rounds or so as I am usally shooting more than one rifle I will take a break clean the rifle I just finished shooting and then move on to shooting the next one and so on. Once I get home I clean all the rifles that I have shot again untill all patches come out clean. I then run a light oiled patch through the barrel and put them in the safe. When I am shooting in the field they get cleaned when I get home.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
The carbon removing product is Slip 2000tm's Products "Carbon Cutter". The copper fouling remover is Bore Tech's, "Eliminator".

I've been using Bore Tech's "Copper remover" for a couple of years, it really REALLY works.

It was $9 for a 4oz bottle but since it really works and unlike Barnes CR10 is safe to leave standing in stainless steel barrels
(Which Barnes specifically recommends against doing)

when you can see the weave of the cloth on your cleaning patches in the reflection from the sides of the bore things are REALLY clean...

AllanD

just get a can of amsoil power foam ,its made to remove carbon build up in engines due to the lack of lead in gas. just plug your barrel and fill it up with power foam to soak ,wipe clean.

www.amsoil.com

I really like Wipe Out foam for copper removal. Just fill the bore, let stand overnight then patch out.
Pete

quote:

Then, it came to me some days later - WHY?
I mean why get your barrels absolutely clean?
Does that extend barrel life?
Does that increase accuracy?
Does that prevent barrel corrosion?
Does that allow us to shoot longer strings of shots before accuracy fades?

Good topic VG.

It depends on the rifle. It might also depend on things that happen to the accuracy that are not related to the barrel condition that get us to clean.

When we get the bore quite clean we start over. Thinking about our cooktop stove with the white finish and some burned on food. I can clean it with Comet and most of it comes clean really fast but sometimes there is a high spot and that takes lots of work to wear it down. If that high spot was not removed from a barrel then it might start a problem with the first shot after a partial clean.

After using a "solvent" with a brush I now have confidence in polishing the bore with RemClean on a patch over a bristle brush. I like the way it smooths things out and makes it look clean enough.

I use kroil and JB. 1 patch soaked in kroil, let it soak overnight. (not necessary, 2-3 hrs usually works) I then clean with a tight patch with JB folowing the intructions. This takes about 2-3 patches before the copper is gone. Keep in mind, this is on a bbl that is ultra-smooth. I have other rifles that take 5-10 patches before the copper is gone. I don't use bronze/copper brushes any more. If I need a brush for any reason, I use nylon such as a case neck cleaning brush. Rarely use them anymore.

Agree with Savage99. A clean barrel is a known starting point. If it takes a couple of fouling shots to settle down, so be it. If you're only partially cleaning your barrel, how do you know how dirty/clean it is?

MarkL: Your known starting point theory is probably a good one.
If I knew I had a Rifle that shot its best when cleaned "to the bare metal" and then maybe fired a couple of shots to foul it in, your theory may have more creedence to me.
I don't think I have such a Rifle.
BUT - all my Rifles, and I have a "bunch" of them, do seem to shoot very well with "normal" cleaning (not down to bare metal) like I have done for decades.
Irv Benzions method of cleaning down to "bare metal" is quite simple, easy and quick to do. At least he relates such. And due to the ease of his regimen maybe it will have long term or short term benefits? I will find out here in the near future.
I again relate my concerns as to his "bare metal" cleaning method as being a solution where there is no significant problem???
Many folks posting here have missed my point - which was - how clean is clean?
Do we NEED to have bare metal cleanliness in our barrel bores to get something done that is not already being done?
Like better accuracy or less barrel wear or less barrel corrosion or longer barrel life?
I don't know.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG, I would think part of your answer might relate to the part of the country your in. A dry area might not need as much attention, while an area with more humidity might cause corrosion from the carbon soaking up moisture. Since carbon and copper fouling are layed down in layers, if you don't get back to bare metal, you may be leaving a moisture collecting layer next to your barrel steel. I don't have anything to back this up, just a supposition. I once had a M700 .270 barrel that was cleaned with the old Hoppes #9 and that type of cleaners for about 15 years. Just a kid and didn't know any better. When I found out about the copper fouling buildup, I used everything I could find to get it out, including Sweats, the old Bore tech copper cleaner, and Shooter Choice copper cleaner.Seemed like it took a week to get down to bare metal, but then I found pitting. The thing was really rough under all those layers that the Hoppes hadn't gotten out. That rifle now wears a Pac-Nor tube. I don't know for sure that not cleaning to bare metal caused the rust pitting, but I prefer not to take another chance.

Ole_270: I tend to give much creedence to your observation and suppositions!
Speaking of layers - its obvious that once down to bare metal and one starts shooting that ultra-clean barrel again that layers do again re-appear or start re-building! But they only re-appear or re-build to a particular level or depth. Once this particular level of copper and carbon is attained then subsequent firings of bullets in that barrel "push" or drag an amount of the carbon and copper along out the muzzle.
Does it not?
I mean if many of my friends (like Irv Bezion!) who do fire their Varminters up to 300 times between cleanings, don't blow up their Rifles by not cleaning them for that duration. Then it means that at some point (10 rounds, 20 rounds, 40 rounds or 100 rounds?) that my contention (theory?) that the copper and carbon starts being drug out of the barrel by subsequent firings is most likely correct?
Is it not?
I mean if at each shot a certain amount of copper and carbon is layed down in the barrel then at some point the barrel would "clog" and a rupture would occur. Alas I surmise that once at a particular layer or depth of copper and carbon no more will accumulate.
Would this not be the case?
So at some point the layers must "quit growing".
I believe.
We have all encountered Rifles/barrels that start loosing accuracy (noticeably) after a particular number of shots have gone down the barrel without cleaning!
But not all Rifles noticeably loose accuracy after being fired "a lot"!
Each Rifle (as someone once said!) "is an individual" and no hard and fast rules have I found to be 100% from Rifle to Rifle regarding accuracy and cleaning.
Along these lines also I must comment that even when I have cleaned a particular Rifle with Sweets and with other products and get the barrel down to where it won't leave any dirty markings on a tight patch then when I take it to the range the next time - I seldom see worrisome differences in bullet impacts til the barrel gets "seasoned" (a few rounds down the bore).
Often these "settling in shot/shots" are only 1/2" out of norm.
You are absolutely right that no one wants corrosion or pits in a barrel!
You bring up an interesting point - where is corrosion more likely to get a foot hold in a barrel, under the layers of copper and carbon or in a down to bare metal (then oiled or preserved - hopefully) bore?
I don't know!
Good food for thought though!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG, I'm not sure what the theory would be as to the reduction or stoppage of buildup after a certain amount. You would think that the bare steel would have some amount of roughness that would scour copper from the bullet. At some point this rough steel would be covered in a sheet of copper and carbon. Now, I've read that the guilding metal jacket material has some affinity for itself and will scour off more metal, but at some point as you said, the buildup seems to stop. What the mechanism would be here, other than high pressure pushing a portion of the buildup ahead of the bullet, I don't know. Oh well, I've got to have something to do besides watch the idiot box, and there's only so many cases to load, so I guess I'll just clean rifles!

VG, GOOD TOPIC!
I am sure that I don't clean my rifle as often as I should, but it doesn't seem to really affect the accuracy greatly. Now, I don't shoot all that much, nowhere near as much as I'd like to, but that is just my observation.
Regards,
Graham

With this bunch of gun critics, maybe I shouldn't admit that I sometimes shoot 500 or more shots a day and don't even run a patch down the bore. Never seems to make much difference in buildup by days end.

Even my muzzle loader, I'll shoot till the loading starts to resist, then bore butter a few strokes, turn the patch over and drop a ball in it. But, when I get home the bp guns are cleaned well, and the next day I do it again just as extensive as I've found acid fouling a couple weeks later when it wasn't cleaned the second time.

You didn't explain the procedure with these two cleaners and how long it took etc.

Couple years ago I got some of the new Blue Wonder Gun Cleaner and tried it. I've never found an easier, better cleaning system than this.

"Brass/bronze brush filled with the goop, ten strokes, ten minute break, ten more strokes, then patch it til clean, then oil it up good".

Main thing is, you've gotta get that oil on it, or the super cleaned metal WILL flash rust over night even in the dry Colorado climate. For some reason I didnt' oil one, next day it was nasty nasty rusted, man did I feel disgusted. I called Ken, the guy that makes this stuff and he said to just clean it again the same way and then oil it like it should have been. That'll take the rust out, sure as hell, it did.

It will take the finish off, and oil out of a stock, so make sure none gets on anything except the metal and you'll be fine.

This Blue Wonder Gun Cleaner will take all the copper, powder, carbon and everything else right out. Even leading and plastic from shotguns nearly everytime the first try.

Sometimes shooting/plinking revolvers I'll shoot 3-4000 rounds over a weekend of hard cast lead and never wipe it down except the outside because it gets so nasty. There's never any sign of leading, so I don't get excited about it in the bore, But, the cylinders and frame etc gets really ugly, so I'll wipe it down with Blue Wonder and it's nice and clean again til I start shooting again.

Just what I've learned and I won't go back to Hoppes except for the fine smell it makes, hehe.

George

wipe out seems to work good enough for me