We all know what kind of accuracy we would like in our varmint rifles, like in the 3's or even the 2's. But what is acceptable accuracy in a production rifle like a Remington or a CZ with the exclusion of the Cooper. Would a one inch group be acceptable to you? 1.000
Once you tune your rifle and find its sweet spot with your reload what can we really expect or obtain over the profesionally but together rifle?

Short Range

1.0000? at 100 yards? short answer would be no and i would probably not keep a Varmint rifle that i could not get to shoot consistently under 1". However, if it were a big game rifle, that's a little different. I demand the most out of my varmint rifles. Each varmint rifle that i own will consistently shoot at least under 1/2" at 100 yards. One is a Remington 700 VLS .22-250 with nothign other than the trigger worked on (averages somewhere in the .3s) and the other is a 25-06 that has been rebarreled by Hart and has really been tuned. This thing shoots in the mid to high .1's. Of course the 25-06 was purchased to shoot them from a long ways off (out to 1000 yards) and the .22-250 is my midrange varmint rifle (out to about 400 yards). Overall, you need to access what you need out of a rifle before you go and get rid of a rifle just because it won't shoot sub 1" groups. Besides, most of the time it isn't the rifle that isn't capable of such accuracy, it's the shooter.
Good Luck,
Ruck

Short range: Good question yours and I find that I ask myself a version of your question every time I buy a new Varmint Rifle.
My question to myself is more like this "at what point accuracy wise will I, or do I, quit doing load development for this Rifle"?
I take several factors into consideration for when I will be satisfied with the grouping ability - or accuracy - of a particular Rifle!
I do not expect near the accuracy for instance from my 22 Hornets and 218 Bees that I expect from my 221 Fireball or my 223 Remington Rifles! Some cartridges are simply more accurate and easier to obtain accuracy with than others! I know some disagree with this contention but in my experience I have found it to be true.
Next I consider the scope power that will be used on that particular Rifle. The more scope power the better A PARTICULAR Rifle will shoot! I have proven this to myself so many times that I consider it fact!
For instance I have a factory stock 40X Remington Rifle in 222 Remington caliber with a 24X Leupold scope. I also have 2 Remington 700 Classic Rifles in 222 Remington one with a 10X Lyman scope and the other with a Leupold 4x12 variable. All three of these Rifles are pleasingly accurate to me but the 40X Rifle produces accuracy (with Varmint bullets) that can only be described as sensational! My two Classics - although again I describe their accuracy as VERY pleasing and fully up to the potential I expected and need in them - simply can't compare to the 40X! And scope power is ONE of the main reasons.
My latest addition to my Varmint Arsenal was a Remington XR-100 in caliber 204 Ruger. I swapped a Leupold 8.5x25x40mm scope off another 204 Ruger I have and put that scope on the new XR-100.
I quickly found a loading for my XR-100 using a bullet I wanted to use this season (Sierra 32 gr. Blitzking) that gave me two consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards of .402" and .322"! I was happy with this and settled on that load for my uses this year!
Back to my beloved little 22 Hornet Varminter! It is a Ruger #1-B (26" medium barrel) and I have a Leupold 6x18 variable scope on it. After two years of load development (fiddle farting around!) I was able to come up with a load that shoots five shots at 100 yards in groups in the .770" range! Now this little rig is so beatiful that I forgive it for not being a "half minute Varminter" and decided to keep it in my permanent Varmint Arsenal!
Speaking of half minute - in a more general way of expressing when I will be happy with a particular Varmint Rifle once I find a load that shoots five shots at 100 yards into .500" groups or less I usually am very happy and quit fiddling and start Varminting!!!
Again your inquiry is very pertinent and I will be very interested in seeing what others expect from their Varminters.
By the way another way to look at "a half minute Varmint Rifle" is from this direction! You take out your 1/2 minute Varminter and sight in on a Varmint 200 yards away - well that Rifle will then place your shot WITHIN 1/2" of your aiming point! Most all of the Varmints I Hunt are all well in excess of 1" wide so that Rifle is not at fault - if I miss! The same Rifle then would place its shots WITHIN 1" of ones aiming point at 400 yards (that Rifle being capable of 2" groups at 400 yards!).
So when my friends start pulling their hair out by the roots when their factory Varminter just won't shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards I advise them to take a breath, remember that they are using Varmint quality bullets and Varmint type scopes and that they paid $500.00 for their Rifle and not $5,000.00! and they have a two pound trigger and not a two ounce trigger and on and on til I convince them that not many Varmint type Rifles at all are capable of 1/4 minute accuracy! COOPERS INCLUDED!
I consider myself lucky if a new Varminter shoots a load into the high threes!
In re-reading your post I want to answer this part of your question directly - no I would not have been happy or satisfied with a 1.000" five shot group at 100 yards with my XR-100 with the 8.5X25 variable scope! I would have been happy with that Rifle if the best I could do was .500" 100 yard groups though. I am more than pleased with its real life performance - the way it turned out though.
There were times during the load development of my Ruger #1-B in 22 Hornet I would have been very happy with 1.000" groups though!
Like I say it will be interesting to see what others expect and strive for in the Varmint Rifles.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

A true 1" rifle- that would be the average of 10 5-shot groups would serve most peolple very well in the varmint hunting arena. The key factor being is the number of groups fired for that average. Consistant sub inch rifles are a blessing and will of course increase your chances at longer distances provided you have a steady enough rest. I like my varmint rifles to be capable groups that will consistantly be 1/2 moa or less, but I have shot many prairie dogs at distances up to 400 yards with rifles who's barrels were well on the wrong side of the 1/2 moa.

quote:

Originally posted by short range:
We all know what kind of accuracy we would like in our varmint rifles, like in the 3's or even the 2's. But what is acceptable accuracy in a production rifle like a Remington or a CZ with the exclusion of the Cooper. Would a one inch group be acceptable to you? 1.000
Once you tune your rifle and find its sweet spot with your reload what can we really expect or obtain over the profesionally but together rifle?

Short Range

quote:

Originally posted by DuaneinND:
A true 1" rifle- that would be the average of 10 5-shot groups would serve most people very well in the varmint hunting arena. The key factor being is the number of groups fired for that average. Consistent sub inch rifles are a blessing and will of course increase your chances at longer distances provided you have a steady enough rest. I like my varmint rifles to be capable groups that will consistently be 1/2 moa or less, but I have shot many prairie dogs at distances up to 400 yards with rifles who's barrels were well on the wrong side of the 1/2 moa.

When somebody says “production rifle†to me, I think of Ruger, Remington, Savage, Winchester, Browning, Sako, etc. NOT Cooper or HS Precision, and the like. And not something from Remington’s or anybody else’s “custom shop†either.

I’m not knocking “custom shop†guns, Cooper, HS or anybody like them.
I think of them as “limited production†rifles, not production guns. A production gun is something you buy over-the-counter at Sportsman’s Warehouse, GI Joe’s or even Wal-Mart.

VarmintGuy is right. You have to get to a point with each individual rifle where “good enough†IS good enough. Some rifles and cartridges just shoot better.

DuaneinND is also right. It’s important to discern if you are talking 3-shot groups consistently or ONE 3-shot group out of 10. One good 3 shot group can be had with just about any rifle if you shoot enough 3-shot groups.

I have a nice old varminter that will put 3 in less than an inch. Big deal.
It will also put 20 rounds inside a 1†group @ 100 yards, 20 round group after 20 round group every time.
Even other people who shoot it come away impressed at it’s consistent accuracy.
For me, consistent accuracy under an inch is more important than a ¼†3-shot group.

Flippy seems to have hit the nail on the head. I've had people talk about their rifles and show me one itty bitty group. When asked if it shoots like that every time...some say yes...some keep their mouths shut, "cuz dey no I'z gunna ast dem ta showd me!"
I have benchrest rifles that won't shoot as well as some say their varmint rifles will shoot. If you have a rifle that will shoot a consistent, repeat, consistent group of five shots under an inch, go shoot them dogs!

Hi Guys:

Good topic, I am working on a accuracy load for my new Remmie HBVSS 204 Ruger. I decided that I would strive for a consistent five shot group at around or below the .500 mark @ 100 yards. Well I have gone through two different bullets and two different powders, and have yet to come close to consistently getting there. I have not even beat the Hornady Factory 40 grain ammo. They shoot around a consistent .925 in groups at 100 yards. I have done this five times.

I could match that accuracy with a 40 caliber Berger and H4895... but I want to beat it. Tonight it was AA2520 & 32 grain Hornady Vmax's.. can't find Sierra 32 grain BK's ANYWHERE ... one three shot group measured in the .6's.... but at a lower velocity. Now it becomes a question IF I do get the accuracy, will I settle for a slower speed say in the 3600 to 3700 FPS with a 32 grain bullet. I am going to hanload more rounds of that .625 and try to tweak it with a few tenths of a grain up and below the magic powder charge.

I am finding it hard to come up with a load that consistently shoots (5) shot group 1/2 MOA at 100 yards, with a stock varmint rifle. I still have two more powders, that will be a total of four I tried so far, and two more bullets.

Ironic... I bought a .17 HMR CZ last year... It is consistent with Hornady factory ammo 1 in. MOA @ 100 yards.... love that little rifle.

Good topic, keep your ideas and comments coming..

Regards... Jim P.

I would like to add this to our discusssion. I have a beautiful older (1976 Centennial Model) Ruger 77V in caliber 220 Swift. It has a Leupold 6.5x20 variable scope on it and has a nice trigger. I tried for some time to get it to shoot better than its "consistent" 5 shot group size at 100 yards of .700"! I tried a lot of things but it shot about everything I tried into .700"!
During the time I was working on "load development" for it I had occassion to go on a Varmint Safari. This Rifle in the field is just wonderful! It seems to "never miss". I have used this Rifle for about two decades and I could not really be any happier with it. It has taken most all the Varmints that live in the Rocky Mountains from Ground Squirrels to Coyotes and Rock Chucks galore! I think I even harvested an Antelope with it.
I got to thinking about why this particular Rifle seems to perform for me in the field better than its range accuracy would indicate. I started paying attention on my pre-Safari sightins with this Rifle. The 5 shot groups year after year seemed to all be roundish in shape and measuring right at .700" - again year after year.
My conclusion so far is this Rifle does not string shots when its barrel gets warm and the nicely adjusted trigger helps keep me from throwing fliers!
I have other Swifts that all shoot a tad better for me at the range but they do not seem to "bring home the bacon" as consistently as my trusty old Bi-cenntenial Ruger 77!

PAHunter: How much scope power do you have on your 700 VSS? How about the trigger has it been adjusted as yet to your liking.
Are your groups strung (horizontally or vertically?) or circular in shape.
Yeah lets get that Remington shooting a tad better for ya!
I have had good luck with the Federal 205M primers in my 3 204's.
Are you shooting on real calm days with minimal mirage?
Let me know if I can help with that recalcitrant (stubborn!) Remington!

Now this - and please no one consider this as a critique of your way of load development or searching for accuracy - if any of you EVER see me shoot one of my Varmint Rifles 50 times at a paper target - you have my permission to slap me in the face! I would no more shoot one of my expensive (they are all expensive anymore!) Varmint Rifles 50 times to test ONE load than I would drink Drano!
In my 40+ years of testing (doing load development and yearly sightins etc) Varmint Rifles I have never, ever, even once, fired a test load 50 times! I can see no point what so ever in shooting any one particular load more than 10 or 15 times! If it ain't shooting in 3 five shot groups - I am very certain it (ones Varmint Rifle with that load) ain't gonna jump in line all of a sudden and start shooting way better!
It ain't gonna happen!
Move on to another load after 10 or 15 rounds and save that barrel for Varmints! Or save it for fun shooting at the range with the grandkids or what ever but I would NEVER take up a regimen of 50 shots per load for ascertaining accuracy!
Barrels are just to expensive to replace!
Taking some of the advice from above and going forth into the Varmint fields with a Varmint Rifle that is only capable of 1.000" groups - I would concur you can do some Varminting with a Rifle of that proficiency. But out at 400 yards one can expect his bullets from this type Rifle to strike within 2" of ones point of. So if you are holding on the center of a standing Ground Squirrel lets say, and the Ground Squirrel is 400 yards out there then the natural dispersion of bullets from that Rifle are gonna cause a certain amount of misses - whether your hold was steady or not or your range and wind estimation were right on or not.
Its a rare factory Varmint Rifle that I have come across in the last 20 years that I could not get to shoot under 1" groups. Again let me advise all that I only shoot, for load testing groups anymore - when conditions are excellent or better! Again I feel if it ain't shooting in 10 or 15 shots - it won't.
To each their own though!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I can without shame say that I have NEVER shot a group under 1/2 at 100m. My varmint rig doesn't hinder my hunting ability at all.
I shoot of the same bag and car bonnet that I do my feild shooting from. I also use a 7 power scope for speed in shot placement and light gathering ability for farm pests with the spotlight (AUS).
Whenever I practise my shots land with 1cm of where i aim which equates to about 3/4inch at 100m. When shooting long distance the ability to accuratley gage range and wind far outway the effects of any possible further improvement in accuracy using either my setup or rest.
My rifle probably shoots better than that (it is a production rifle) but that is all the consistency/accuracy i DEMAND.

quote:

PAHunter: How much scope power do you have on your 700 VSS? How about the trigger has it been adjusted as yet to your liking.
Are your groups strung (horizontally or vertically?) or circular in shape.
Yeah lets get that Remington shooting a tad better for ya!
I have had good luck with the Federal 205M primers in my 3 204's.
Are you shooting on real calm days with minimal mirage?
Let me know if I can help with that recalcitrant (stubborn!) Remington!

Hi VG:

First I have a Nikon 4.4 X 14 scope on my rig. I had the rifle barrel free floated, it all ready was from the factory, but had it double checked and the trigger lightened to two pund pull by my gunsmith.

My best groups from the 40 grain Factory Fodder are circular. Because of this I naturally tried the Berger 40 grain pills with H4895 & AA2520... up and down the powder range... Best group was barely sub one inch with 28 grains of H4895 and the Berger 40... I think the Berger 35 grain in 204 would be an ideal bullet weight, a little heavier than the 32's and lighter than the 40'd with a decent BC... can't find them ANYWHERE..

I am using CCI 450 SR Mag Primers... because that is what I used for my 22-250.... should I switch to Federal primers..?

What do you think?

Regards... Jim P.

I am more than happy with .5" 3 shot groups that have the velocity I want from the gun and 5 shot groups at .75" regularly are just fine and for the most part what I arrive at. 5 shot .25" rifles in my experience are not very common and anything less would be competetive benchrest equipment. I think you would win more than you would lose if you bet everybody $20 bucks they couldn't sit down and shoot a .5" 5 shot group within 7 minutes from any of their hunting rifles!

PAHunter: Jim I will gladly send you 20 Berger 35 gr. bullets just PM me your address. I am busy entertaining out of town (Munich, Germany!) guests that showed up 4 days before expected! Anyway I will get them in the mail ASAP if you want to try 20. I would send you a box but I am loading for Prairie Dogs with them and may come up short as is.
I have never used the CCI 450 Small Rifle Magnum primers in any of my 222 family of cartridges. I have, however, used the fine Federal 205 Match primers in every one of my 222 type cartridges and am highly pleased with them. Lots of folks I talk with like the Remington 7 1/2 primers in their 204's.
Yeah invest $2.00 and get a box of Federal 205M primers.
Those Nikons are fine scopes and should get you near the 1/2" mark when other things "gell" for you! I have set my action screws in my Remington 204's at 45 inch/pounds!
Tomorrow is Saturday and the post office in my town is open only for 3 hours and we have plans in the out of doors with the Germans tomorrow! So Monday the Bergers could be in the mail and to you by Friday next I hope!
Let me know.
Keep after it!
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

.5 moa is my aim. Some of my rifles can better it, but in reality, virtually all are .4 to .7 rifles. One is currently a .9 rifle (and as it's a 308 that's probably quite ok, but I'll work for more), and another (a 22/250) is an erratic 1 moa performer. That rifle will become a 260, which I expect will also be a .5 performer. I have one rifle (with a sleeved bolt, etc) that gets into tiny groups, but the nut behind the butt can't keep it there.

What Ruck said about a varmint rifle... and a deer rifle. With computer aided machining technology, consistantancy should be the rule for factory rifles. Unless there's an inletting problem with a wooden stock most should be able to shoot under 1" off the bench with trigger work. Maybe I've been unusually lucky but with the exception of a short Ruger .338 Mag with hellish recoil, I haven't bought a rifle in almost twenty years that I couldn't consistantly shoot under an inch with once I found the guns favorite factory load. ...And the manly-man who bought the Ruger restocked it, lightened the trigger and shot 1". My guns ahve included: an A-Bolt Stainless Stalker, two stainless M. 70's, a Model 7 and a 700 VS composite...and I've never seen anyone elses Savage that wouldn't shoot that well. Jack, a Pennsylvania shooting buddy used to say, "You shoot good, gun shoot good".

HI VG:

Thanks for the offer, you have PM.... I will pick up some Federal 205M primers.

Have fun with the Germans..... just make sure Prarie Dogs are all that they shoot.

Regards... Jim P.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
I got to thinking about why this particular Rifle seems to perform for me in the field better than its range accuracy would indicate. I started paying attention on my pre-Safari sightins with this Rifle. The 5 shot groups year after year seemed to all be roundish in shape and measuring right at .700" - again year after year.
My conclusion so far is this Rifle does not string shots when its barrel gets warm and the nicely adjusted trigger helps keep me from throwing fliers!
I have other Swifts that all shoot a tad better for me at the range but they do not seem to "bring home the bacon" as consistently as my trusty old Bi-cenntenial Ruger 77!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Here is the perfect example of being confident AND comfortable with a set-up.

Just because something CAN shoot better, doesn't mean it WILL.
You will shoot better with any gun you know well AND know it's (and your own) limitations.

Be wary of the man who only owns one gun...

...he probably knows how to shoot it.

Accuracy to me is relevant only to the point of effective range of a given cartridge and that includes what it will be used on. I've a Ruger 77 in .358 Win. that has slipped into the 2's on a couple of occasions with Ballistic Tips, consistantly hovers around 1" with others. It is on it's best day a sub 300 yard BG rifle though, and that's being generous. So in my way of looking at it there is a lot of wasted accuracy there. I'd be happy with it if it printed 2" at 100 yards in truth, as I don't snipe varmints with it.

I have a couple of Ruger #1's that shoot in the 3/4" range and they will do fine in the varmint business IMO, not that 3/4" is spectacular, but putting 20 or so shots in that group withing a 10-15 minute time span and starting with a cold unfouled barrel, is pretty special to me.

In other words, you don't need anymore accuracy than is required to accomplish the task at hand, be it a 10 yard still hunt shot, or 500 yard pairie dogs. If all else fails, get closer.

Varmint Guy- I don't shoot a rifle with the same load for 50 rounds either. I was refering to an average of many groups, not just the one 3 shot group that went into a bug hole. After working on/with and shooting many fifles over the past 25 years I always find it interesting when someone is talking about .3" groups consistantly with a factory rifle. My unlimited class bench rifle in 22ppc will shoot in that area consistently and I find it hard to belive that a factory rifle will equal its AVERAGE. Of course this is an average of about 800 rounds on paper. There have been many a 4 shot group in the zeros ruined by a gust of wind or some mirage for bullet # 5 and a .350 group instead of a .090. The last barrel off my 223 was fired 3800 rounds (many prairie dogs) before I changed barrels due to somebody overheating the barrel and destroying the accuracy. When I page through the pages of my loading manual and add up all the groups fired for load development, changeing scopes, some practice, and sometimes just for fun I came up with an average of .622, this was for 70 some groups, mostly 3 & 5 shot. The best 3 was .149, the best 5 was .281, and there was one 10 shot group that was .486. This was with a #3 contour Shilen barrel. The #4 Douglas that is on the rifle now has only shot 3 - 5 shot groups Agg. is .525, the rest of the 450 rounds has been at varmints. When I miss I know it is me.
To cut a long story short any rifle that will consistantly shoot 5 shot 1 moa groups over its lifetime is an accurate rifle and will serve its owner very well.

DuaneinND: If you were to ask me if any of the 100 or so Varmint Rifles I have owned and done load work for and Hunted Varmints with - if any of them could shoot 10 5 shot groups of any particular size - I honestly could not answer that question!
I have never and probably will never attempt such an undertaking.
I don't want to belabor the point taking it over into bench rest style AND QUALITY Rifles or components AND BR scopes but many many Varmint Rifles I have owned and do own and have seen shoot will often and do often shoot 1/4" groups!!! I know that saying this INSULTS EVERY BR type that has ever lived or will ever live! So be it!
Now, you and your unlimited class PPC Rifle have this holding you back from a direct and absolutely equitable comparison to Varmint Rifles and Varmint shooters - you have a set number of minutes to fire for your groups and on a day NOT of your choosing and under conditions NOT of your choosing! BR shooting is simply a quest to find who can judge conditions 100 yards distant the best! Varmint Hunting is a vastly different and more demanding undertaking in my estimation! First of all a Varmint is not always at EXACTLY 100 yards (or 200 or whatever competition is undertaken) AND a Varmint is not absolutely still on a rigid target frame! Said Varmints move and often move at the instant a shot is taken! And most Varmints I have seen do not have a neat row of wind flags and daisy wheels leading RIGHT UP TO THEM! And I have shot very few Varmints from a cement bench! Some but very few!
If YOU need to shoot your unlimited BR Rifle 50 times to ascertain THE absolute best BR load for it then by all means do so. But Varminters need not apply that regimen to themselves or TO SATISFY ANYONE.
And yes to - I bought a humble ass Varmint Rifle in 1990. It was a Remington M-700 PSS (Police Sniper Special in caliber 223 Remington) and the first three 100 yard 5 shot groups out of it measured .362", .293" and .219"!!! Now again these were groups shot with a Varmint scope and Varmint bullets (Leupold 6.5x20 and Sierra 50 gr. Blitz bullets) on a date and place and conditions of my choosing. Is it your intention to call it a non-existent Rifle or "can't be done" or not up to BR standards?
Do so if you wish but when I relay to my trusted friends and now and then in public forums like this - I refer to it as capable of .300" groups! Literally thousands of Rock Chucks, Prairie Dogs and Ground Squirrels wish this Rifle was not what it is! It is an amazingly accurate and cheap Rifle. I paid in the mid $300.00's for it!
I wish I had ten more just like it!
I fire this Rifle at Varmints virtually every year and about every other year at the range to verify sight-in! I will never fire it 50 times at paper in one year for any reason. It is simply to precious a machine to abuse it thusly.
It simply shoots like a house on fire. Many of my more expensive Remington 40X's don't shoot quite as well as this one! Keep that confession in mind if you (as other BR types have) decide to call me a liar! I have not one reason on earth to lie about that $300.00 Rifle and admit my $1,000.00 Rifles do not shoot quite as well - or can you come up with some possible reason I would?
Again I think a Varminter should test his Rifles and do his load development under only superb range conditions. And then, testing 10 or 15 rounds will tell the Varminter his Rifle either likes or dislikes said load!
Using my terms of testing and my duration and distance and my chosen conditions - I own a BUNCH of Varmint Rifles that I consider to be commonly capable of under .500" groups at 100 yards!
Now I do remember the days when Varmint Rifles, Varmint scopes and Varmint bullets could occassionally shoot a group under half an inch at 100 yards. These occassions were marked by phone calls late into the night and bragging at the next sportsmans meeting or range work detail! And yes those occassions back then mandated the group being scissored out of the target and carefully placed in ones wallet!
These occasssions are not rare anymore with todays factory Rifles. I just paid $651.00 for a Remington XR-100 in caliber 204 Ruger and mounted a Varmint style scope on it. The FIRST loads out of it shot these 5 shot groups at 100 yards - .322", .402", .374" and .421"! These groups were shot with two different powders and were the first groups fired with the Rifle using non-factory ammo! By the way the Hornady factory ammo (two different bullet weights) in this Rifle averaged .549" for my 5 shot groups at 100 yards - WITH FACTORY AMMO! This was for 4 groups again on days and under conditions I chose.
I guess I am disagreeing with your policy of being happy with a 1.000" factory Varmint Rifle! And you apparently disagree with the criterion by which I judge the accuracy of my Varmint Rifles - so be that - but, be advised I will not shoot ten groups with any of my Varmint Rifles to satisfy you or any other BR types, for YOUR assessment of my Rifles accuracy!
Like I said there are many tens of thousands of Varmints that no longer exist that wish my Rifles were not as accurate as they are!
I do not differ appreciably at all over your .622" average from your various Rifles (Varminters?) as noted in your log book. And that is commendable and consistent shooting. I would be happy with most any Varminter that shoots .622" groups consistently. Some of my custom Varminters and 40X Varminters I would wish shot closer to .500" though than to the .622" and I do not think that is to lofty a goal for a quality factory Rifle with tuned handloads and a top end Varmint scope.
If I can do it on a pretty regular basis I think most anyone could (get close to .500" five shot groups at 100 yards with a factory Varminter).
Heck I have seen those Savage Rifles fire groups measuring .250" and better a number of times! My friend Mark from Maple Valley, Washington recently fired a five shot group with an old Remington 700V in 223 Remington (that I FOOLISHLY sold him a few months ago!) of .236"!
AND I think he only had a 12X scope on it! I will verify and revise that groups size and scope power once I talk to him again but I am fairly sure my memory is correct on that one - he is on a trip to the Ground Squirrel country of NW Montana right now and is incommunicado!
I have seen probably 25 groups shot at 100 yards with factory Varmint Rifles in the 1's! In additon I have fired probably 20 of them myself over the years! I don't call those Rifles consistent .100" shooters but I would refer to them as very accurate and capable of groups in the ones. And I would refer to most of them as quarter minute Varminters. I see no harm in that and no purposeful misleading by anyone.
The Remington 700 PSS in 223 that I referred to above if taken out of my hands and my decisons on when to shoot it and given to a person with good shooting skills on an average shooting day, I am still certain would pour in a lot of under .500" groups in a row! I consider the money I spent for it as some of the best value per dollar I have ever spent on anything!
Might I now be so bold as to suggest how the regular Varmint fellow (and after all this IS the Varmint forum) can ascertain and describe the accuracy of his Varmint Rifle WITHOUT offending ANY BR types or misleading any other Varminters or Rifle cranks. I suggest that a Varminting fellow do his load testing and come up with a load he is happy with and from thereafter he quote his last two 5 shot groups measurements at 100 yards with that Rifle as THE accuracy of his Rifle. I therein declare - and I am happy with - the accuracy of my last Rifle tested (my XR-100 in 204 Ruger) and it is a Rifle that shoots in the .3's and .4's!
That is my definition of "this thing called accuracy" from that Varmint Rifle and I have a clear conscience defining it thusly.
I think thats a fair method of describing accuracy for a Varmint Rifle, and it will keep a Varminter from shooting those long 50 shoot strings.
Long live factory Varmint Rifles.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy;

I think I understand what your saying. I interpet what you say above that you have rifles that will shoot .25" everytime you shoot them under warehouse conditions (0 or extremely mild wind)? If that is true then those are very good factory rifles and I don't see why anybody would argue with you saying that they are .25" rifles under those very specific condtions especially to the point of calling somebody a liar. I am confident that a couple of my varmint guns would be under a half inch consistantly (5 shot groups) with those conditions but I never get to shoot in zero wind because I live in the desert and it blows all the time. I am just as confident that I do not own a .25" varmint rifle even under those conditions. Just handling a gun that consistently is a challenge for me.

I think what most people call into question is when a rifle is defined by only the best group it fires. The rifle either fired all of the groups it shot or it didn't and that is simply the way the vast majority of people judge a gun. The concern is, obviously, that abberations that effect accuracy will effect it positively on occasion also.

I hope you don't get turned off to benchrest competition because you ran into some arrogant shooter that thinks benchrest defines all that is known to man. It is a fun game and for the most part I have found it populated by reasonable people that are fun to have exactly this type of conversation with.

Jeff

Jeff: I have attended quite a number of BR competitions over the last 30 years but I never made the leap into competing myself - why you might ask - because it is one massive waste of time, effort and expense in my opinion!
I made a posting a couple years ago where in I relayed a synopsis of that years BR Super Shoot - if I recall correctly the top 167 shooters in this lenghty shoot out had aggregate scores that differed by less than .100"!!!
Now would any sane person get in their motorhome with their $5,000.00 Rifles and accompanying equipment, drive thousands of miles (buying expensive fuel all the way!), put their dogs in kennels, drive through vast areas where perfectly good Varmint Hunting abounds JUST to see if they can "out guess" 40 or 300 other shooters in regards to mirage and wind - beating their brains out and pulling their hair out while doing so?!?!
Just to see if their bullets are lucky enough to land 1/10th of an inch closer to each other. All this while mind you, wasting a perfectly good weekend and a day or two on each side of it for travel.
The correct answer to this conundrum is save your time, money, effort, weekends and stress!
Go Varmint Hunting instead!
Varmint Hunting is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more rewarding, interesting, relaxing, fulfilling, diverse and challenging than ANY bech rest competition will ever be!
Do not get me wrong I admire and appreciate some of the things the BR community has done for the shooting sports including advances in equipment that enhances the accuracy of my Rifles. And I know many and consider many committed BR types as my friends and I have Hunted with BR types often and look forward to doing so in the future. Just going through all that effort to pound paper seems a waste of good barrel rifling to me!
And I will not let you besmirch my Varmint Rifles and the accuracy I profess them capapble of either! Don't try it again! If I want to profess my Rifles capapbilities of shooting in as near perfect conditions as I choose then I will do so! Again I will not let a BR type impose their standards on me and my Varmint Rifles and Varmint scopes and Varmint bullets.
And this Jeff - indeed, virtually every BR shooter I have known over the decades has been a prince of a person! One of my closest friends allowed me to carry his BR Rifle to the line for him as he struggled to walk from his motorhome to his assigned bench. He passed away less than a month after that match! I helped write his obituary for the Washington Arms Collectors monthly publication "Gun News Magazine" as he was one of the few people that had been a member of that organization longer than I have. There is not a bit of doubt in my mind that my friend died happy and content with the only hobby he could still enjoy, fresh in his memory. Good for him! But I would not let him berate my method of expressing the accuracy of my Rifles either!
I am not on a crusade to defame the BR sport, their equipment, their ceaseless internal squabbles or those that partake in the sport - it (the BR game) just seems such an unrewarding waste of time, energy and money to me! When the same amount of time and energy and money could be spent in such a much more rewarding endeavour like Varmint Hunting!
No, I am gonna call my few 1/4" Varmint Rifles 1/4" Varmint Rifles! And I am gonna call my 1/2" Varmint Rifles 1/2" Varmint Rifles! And my 3/4" Varmint Rifles 3/4" Varmint Rifles! And I specifically will never and have never referred to a Varmint Rifle by its best ever single grouping. I have never done that, suggested that or professed anyone else do that. Not because you or any other BR type demands it but because that would be misleading. It is not my intention to mislead anyone.
Enjoy your sport!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Let me add this to my previous post as it is an important issue.
I just got back to this forum from the Benchrest Centerfire Forum. While there I observed this bold declaration from the good folks in Reno, Nevada that are putting on a BR shoot on July 16 & 17th!
"For only $50.00 you can enter" their upcoming BR event in mid July!
Now I do not know where you all's $50.00 bills come from but mine are hard earned! AND are spent in a lot better venues than getting the chance to see if my bullets pass through paper, in the wind and mirage of a mid-July blazing hot Nevada day, somewhat closer (1/10th of an inch) to each other than someone elses!
I would MUCH, MUCH, MUCH rather spend my $50.00 bills on more Sierra Blitz's and Nosler Ballistic Tips!
Hooray for the BR game and the BR types just don't try to impose your standards on Varminters and Varmint Rifles. And most of us (Varminters!) will surely return the favor to them (BR types).
The following is just my preference but there are two places I do not want to be in mid-July! One is hell and the other is Reno, Nevada! Sheeesh!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
"For only $50.00 you can enter" their upcoming BR event in mid July!
Now I do not know where you all's $50.00 bills come from but mine are hard earned!
I would MUCH, MUCH, MUCH rather spend my $50.00 bills on more Sierra Blitz's and Nosler Ballistic Tips!
VarmintGuy

Amen brother...

VarmintGuy;

I did not try to "besmearch" you or your rifles and apologize if you read it that way. Just a simple discussion and any such implication was not intended. Also, I did not try to state that you only use your best groups merely that that is the concern in an accuracy discussion of this type. I think we speak pretty close to the same lingo although you seem to have a little more passion concerning it than I do. Please don't read that I demand anything of you, I don't even know you to try and demand something.

I agree with your assessment of the benchrest people in general and enjoy the benchrest game mostly because of exactly that but only get the opportunity to shoot in a match or my BR gun once or twice a year. Shoot my varmint rifles all year, almost exclusively in the field and very little paper punching, except to develop a load for it. Love my rimfires also. Just like you, I have more fun calling in coyotes or shooting prairie dogs and jackrabbits than punching paper.

Jeff

Also agree on Reno in July.

Flippy: I got rained out today (and sleeted and hailed and lightninged and thundered) from a Ground Squirrel Hunt here in SW Montana!
How is your weather over in Oregon? Are you in eastern Oregon?
I got a call from a fellow that lives in Washington who just got back home from a three day Varmint Safari in eastern Oregon they got 250 Ground Squirrels and several Badgers!!!
He also said they heard Coyotes at night and saw a couple more Badgers they did not get!
This storm cycle that SW Montana has been on for the last 3 weeks is getting to me! I mean we have had 3.30" of rain so far in June and that is way above normal! Don't get me wrong we need the moisture but I am just tired of wet Varmint Rifles, gumbo and waiting out the thunderstorms in the cab of my VarmintMobile!
I also am beginning to worry about my upcoming scheduled Prairie Dog Hunts over east!
Maybe an Idaho and eastern Oregon Varmint Hunt will find better weather?
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

many committed BR types

Too, some BR guys should be committed...

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Flippy: I got rained out today (and sleeted and hailed and lightninged and thundered) from a Ground Squirrel Hunt here in SW Montana!
How is your weather over in Oregon? Are you in eastern Oregon?
Maybe an Idaho and eastern Oregon Varmint Hunt will find better weather?
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I am in "western" Oregon (I-5 corridor). The weather here has been OK with some rain and thunderstorms, etc. not typical summer weather, but livable.

Our weather sounds MUCH better than where you are.

Central and Eastern Oregon have been pretty much OK also, with a few thunderstorms, rain, etc. Still better than yours, I'm not going to complain!
Right now the weather is up and down daily, but overall not too bad.

I feel for the poor weathermen...

quote:

Originally posted by JeffMc:
I agree with your assessment of the benchrest people in general and enjoy the benchrest game mostly because of exactly that but only get the opportunity to shoot in a match or my BR gun once or twice a year. Shoot my varmint rifles all year, almost exclusively in the field and very little paper punching, except to develop a load for it. Love my rimfires also. Just like you, I have more fun calling in coyotes or shooting prairie dogs and jackrabbits than punching paper.

Jeff

The "old" BR guys out at the range where I do my "sighting in" and some paper punching, wanted me to join them and maybe shoot some matches.

They all seem to have a good time and all, but I'm too young for that full-time yet.
Plus, some of these guys can FLAT SHOOT.

There is just about nothing worse than getting your butt kicked by an 80-year old man with a 50 year old gun...

Might make me humble. Can't have that...

quote:

Originally posted by JeffMc:
I hope you don't get turned off to benchrest competition because you ran into some arrogant shooter that thinks benchrest defines all that is known to man. It is a fun game and for the most part I have found it populated by reasonable people that are fun to have exactly this type of conversation with.

Jeff

Just like the "old' BR guys at the range I was referring to before.
Mostly reasonable, but VERY committed to BR competition.
(Yes DD, some may need to BE committed!)

At first I mistook their "confidence" as arrogance, and I'm sure there are some arrogant BR people out there. The difference between casual shooters and these guys is THEY KNOW EXACTLY what they are capable of shooting and they have the confidence to do it.
Because they've been doing it for 30 years...

Like varmint hunting. I know guys that know they can hit a ground squirrel at 100 yards with one shot from a 22LR, 98% of the time.
Because they've been doing it for 30 years...

Most people can't do this because they don't have the confidence to pull it off even if their shooting skills were good enough.

Good varminters and good BR guys just know...

Flippy;

I have to admit that the only reason I bought my BR equipment now is that I can afford it and was worried that when I retire I will have the time but not the money. I am glad I did though as when time does permit it is an enjoyable game and your right about how serious some of the guys get into it. Good sports though and will share just about anything to help out somebody just beginning.

You might have something with the confidence issue. Doing anything for 30 years has got to pay off somewhere. Knowing that your equipment is up to it probably helps the same way.

Jeff

Varmint guy- I use my unlimited class 22ppc for a prairie dog rifle. I have been shooting gophers, rats, prairie dogs, and any other varmint I can get my sights on since Dad let me have my first 22 ss rifle. I am not calling anyone a liar or doubting the size of your groups- but 2 or 3 groups on a given day are not the measure of any rifle. Keep track of all the groups you shoot, good and bad, windy or calm over the life of the rifle- that is a true measure. The point you have missed is that answering the original question you can successfully hunt varmints with a 1" rifle. I shoot many different makes and brands of factory rifles during a year, and yes there is an occasional shooter in the bunch- my guess would be about 20% of the time the parts all mate and an excellent rifle is "built" by accident in a factory setting. I am not a BR shooter, but until you spend some time behind a BR rifle you just cannot appreciate what "pure" accuracy is all about. A BR rifle will teach you about all of your bad shooting habits because it will always put the bullet where the shooter is pointing the rifle. Oh and by the way 10- 5 shot groups over an afternoon are not nearly as hard on any of my rifles as an afternoon in a PD town firing 200 or more rounds.

Accurracy.....the HOLY GRAIL of accurracy....it won't be reached if that's what you're looking for!!! 1/2" at 100 yards is quite doable with a lot of the "factry varminters" out there today! BTDT! Take those same rifles and tune them a bit and you may get them into the upper 2's and 3's.....so what?? What does 100 yards tell you? NOT DIDDLY ABOUT 300-500 or further!!! It might tell you that the rifle may need some further testing!! Rifles are like women......got to play them right!!! Tony Bowyer, arguably the best BR shooter ever knows his BARRELS intimately!!! (Last count there had been 47 barrels on one action for him!!!) He knows if the 3rd shot in a string tends to go 1/8"low left or some such, and HE HOLDS FOR IT!!! He may also know the 4th shot has a tendency to go 1/8" right......and he holds for it!!!
Bottom line is......the one hole 100 yard groups a lot of folks dream of is just that.....a dream!!! The best dream is of a pickup bed full of dead varmints, shot in varying conditions, from various ranges with various rifles, enjoyed by the company of like minded friends and accomplices!!! Headed for an eastern safari on Friday!! RUCK, YOU NEED TO GET OVER HERE!!!! This one is going to be good!!! Last time it was shot, required barrel cooling time for a .223!!!! Not such a big deal in a p-dog town, but when it's hot and heavy enough to require barrel cooling on eastern groundhogs......that's a serious "target rich environment"!! GHD

Jeff, good equipment is important, too.

If you show a little interest in BR, those old guys WILL show you anything you want.

Plus they'll give you donuts...

Yes - the evidence of a donut culture abounds at a BR match!!!!!

Gotta love em.