Blue Dot in 17 and 20 Caliber cases

Cases Reviewed:

17 Fireball
17 Ackley Bee
17 K Hornet
20 BR Rem

I have recently received a lot of emails and PMs on web sites asking about Blue Dot formulas in cases smaller than a 223. Many of these smaller bores are becoming popular with varmint shooters.

I have found that Blue Dot does have certain parameters that seem to hold true, regardless of bore diameter, but rely on case design. In developing loads for a new cartridge with Blue Dot, I have worked out a formula that I use. However at times it becomes hard for some to understand it, as I get tons of PMs and emails asking for clarification.

Therefore, I am recommending the following parameters for each of the above cartridges.

I. 17 Rem Fireball and 20 Vartag: Full Case: 16grs of Blue Dot
a. Minimum load: 20% or 3.2grs
b. 30% load: 4.8 grs
c. 40% load: 6.4 grs
d. 50% load: 8 grs
e. 60% load: 9.6 grs

After the 8 grain load, it is advised to move up slowly, in a max of 2/10s of a grain increments. Depending on bullet weight chosen, max load should exist somewhere between 9 and 9.6 grains.

II. 17 Ackley Bee: Full Case: 13.8 grs of Blue Dot
a. minimum Load: 20% or 2.76 grs
b. 25% load: 3.45 grs
c. 30% load: 4.14 grs
d. 40% load: 5.52 grs
e. 50 % load: 6.9 grs
f. 60% load: 8.28 grs

After 6.9 grains, depending on bullet weight, work up in 2/10s of a grain increments, finding the max load existing between 7 grains and 8.3 grains. I’d even think about using a small pistol primer in this case.

III. 17 K Hornet: full Case: 11.6 grains of Blue Dot
a. minimum load: 20% or 2.32 grs
b. 25% load; 2.9 grs
c. 30% load: 3.48 grs
d. 40% load: 4.64 grs
e. 50% load: 5.8 grs
f. 60% load: 6.96 grs

After 5.8 grains, I would work up in 1/10 grain increments with this case. Depending upon bullet weight, max load should exist between 5.8 grains and 6.9 to 7 grains. I’d even think about using a small pistol primer in this case.

IV. 20 BR: Full Case Capacity: 28 grs
a.Minimum Load: 20% 5.6 grs
b. 25% Load: 7 grs
c. 30% Load: 8.4 grs
d. 40% load: 11.2 grs
e. 50 % load: 14 grs
f. f. 60% load: 16.8 grs

After 15 grains I would recommend proceeding in ½ grain increments and look for a max load to be somewhere between 16 and 17 grains. 2/10 a grain increments would be prudent after 16 grains, depending upon bullet weight. SMALL rifle primer is recommended with this case.


These guidelines are for experienced hand loaders. It is highly recommended to charge a case and then seat a bullet before continuing onto the next case.

THESE LOADS HAVE NOT BEEN TESTED. These are only submitted as academic guidelines. Safety is the personal responsibility of each individual for their own person.

The heavier the bullet weight, the slower one should approach what is listed as maximum load. One should proceed rather cautiously after reach the 50% case load.

Seafire, Do your "BR" cases use Large Rifle Primers" or is that a typo??? All my BR's for years have been the standard BR case which is based on a shortened .308 case with SMALL RIFLE PRIMER. Just checking to see if I missed something somewhere. Charlie (GHD)

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
Seafire, Do your "BR" cases use Large Rifle Primers" or is that a typo??? All my BR's for years have been the standard BR case which is based on a shortened .308 case with SMALL RIFLE PRIMER. Just checking to see if I missed something somewhere. Charlie (GHD)

GHD,

No that was not a TYPO... that was an operator mental malfunction....

I have corrected that...

Thanks for pointing that out...

cheers
seafire

I load all those rounds you mentioned with the minor exception that my .17 Bee is a .20 Killer Bee (the .17 Killer Bee is being built currently in a low wall), both are wildcats with 40 degree shoulders instead of Ackleys 34 degrees (very similar). Also my .20BR is called a .20 Dasher and is an improved BR case with again a 40 degree shoulder and considerably more capacity.
Once again seafire ole buddy and with all due respect I would most strongly advise against making one powder fit all when it comes to .17's and .20's, "especially" rounds with extremely thin walls designed for the low pressures of 100 years ago like the Hornet and Bee.
Seafire my friend while your formulas have you convinced that Blue Dot performs the same regardless of bore size, please let me say that my years of experience shooting almost nothing but .17's and .20's prove that while that may well be true about Blue Dot the sub-.22 calibers do indeed respond to pressure WAY differently than cases with bigger escape routes and reloading them without considering that possibility is asking for trouble. Load density is an important consideration in sub.22 caliber wildcats, especially those in very small cases.
I sure ain't doggin your posts amigo but my experience leads me to a totally different conclusion than yours and I feel compelled to voice it for consideration.
Have a good one .

Well Doug,

that is where it is highlighted to work up from a low point.. such as minimum of 20 or 30% of capacity...

I haven't done it, but according to folks who use quick load, a lot of the Blue Dot loads I list as maximum in other cartridges are only pushing pressures of 40 to 45,000 CUPs....and those are in the 50 to 55 % of case capacity maximums...

I'm not going to run out an purchase a lot of smaller bore rifles to test this... however, folks are asking for the formula.. and I maintain that there are safe parameters there.. like any powder and any cartridge and caliber.. start low and work up...

And actually recently I came across some load data for the 221 and 17 Mach 4 to be used in bolt action pistols that was from back in the 70s or so.... and they were using powders like 800x and 700 x, SR 4756, Unigue and a batch of others that were considerably faster than Blue Dot..

page 600, Hodgdon Manual # 26 for the 221 Fireball is one example....

Page 247 of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook also is another example for the Fireball case, in 22 caliber yes, but still gives starting guidelines for the same case in a smaller bore...

I came up with a formula for 9.6 grains as max for a 221 Fireball in my analysis.. they came up with a charge of 9.7 grains under a 50 grain bullet...

hence I feel that with a 40 grain bullet in say a 20 Vartag, where I recommend working up in 2/10 grain increments at 8 grains or 50% of a full case, is perfectly safe.. especially since they also list the max at 9.7 and I make the statement that the handloader will reach max somewhere between 9 and 9.6 grains...

I don't think this will be too far off in the 17 Mach 4 either with a 20 or 25 grain bullet, especially starting lower and working up....

I;'ll guarantee ya that there are safe loads with Blue Dot even in the sub 22 caliber smaller cases....working up slow and prudently, the safe handloader will easily find where the parameters are for his firearm...

Not trying to change your mind seafire, just posting my opinion for anyone that is going to be trying sub.22 cals. and might be interested in another angle on it.
I just can't getaway from the fact that with all the multitude of great powders out there to tailor a perfect load for about any round it makes no sense to me to try and do everything with just one type. My load with the .17 Ackley Hornet has a 20 grain V-Max doing near 3,800fps. Rat spreading machine! I get approx 625 loads per pound of powder. Reduce the load by 40 percent or so and you've got a .17HMR. Where's the biscuit?
If a guy really wants to do all his varminting using increased and reduced loads with only one rifle I'd just buy a .223 and call her good.
Talking about a .17 MachIV or a .20BR and then using greatly reduced loads strikes me like buying a Ferrari and pulling 4 plug wires then running regular gas in it, I just don't get it . Oh well I don't have to, to each his own.
Be careful fellas the industry max average pressure for the ".22" Hornet is 43,000 CUP and the .218 Bee 40,000 CUP. Just picture for a second the 45,000 CUP mentioned above trying to push it's way down a .22 caliber hole and then the same pressure escaping down a .17 caliber hole. Pretty easy to see they do not spike pressure the same. Blow a big lungful of air as hard as you can down a McDonalds drinking straw, now do the same with one a those skinny little straws that comes in a mixed drink. Which one let the air out fastest and with the least pressure? Which one backed up the pressure if you blew hard enough and caused that pain behind your ears from blowing to hard?
Smaller bores spike pressure differently than larger ones, trust me on this one.

Doug

I have all 3 Calhoon chamberings and he recommends Blue Dot also. Haven't tried them yet. But I will.

I have a 19-223 in a Savage 110 switch barrel. The other barrel is a 223AI. Right now I'm buried in a house re-modeling, removing plaster and lath walls and re-placing with insulation and sheet rock. I'm 72 years old and ain't as fast as I usta was.

Do you post on the 17 forum also?

The way things are going right now it will probably be mid April before I get into the project.

Best wishes, Bill