I am looking for a Coyote bullet (most of my shots are 150yrds, but can be longer, I do harvest the fur) for a 223Rem autoloader with a 16" barrel. This gun would also be a ranch gun in which it would see close quarters home defense use where overpenetration of walls (wood stud framed with drywall or plaster both sides of wall) is a significant consideration. I am pretty much sold on the plastic tipped boat tailed bullets and prefer Hornady. Which V-Max would you use, 40gr or 50gr, Moly or not?

Deke.

I have a CZ 527 carbine that I use for exactly the same purposes. I have been happy with the 40 grain vmax and ballistic tip. The hides are still sellable, but I thankfully haven't had to use it in the house yet. Trajectory is fine for shots to 275+ yards. I would avoid moly at all costs. The moly fouling is harder to clean up than jacket metal fouling and it adds nothing to velocity or accuracy.

I think I'd try the 40gr slug since with less mass it might fall apart quicker if it were to hit a wall. Not my choice of home defense though.
At 150yds it should also be deadly on yotes, and in these conditions Moly won't make much difference.

Just talked to Hornady and they use the VMax for the 40gr and 55gr TAP ammo. Looks like in a 16" barrel the 40gr ammo has been confirmed not to penetrate though 2-layers of sheetrock where the 55gr will. The same would apply to a Coyote.

I am in the market for 1-2 cases of the least expensive brass cased, unlacquered ammo I can buy. Does anybody know what manufacturer I should be looking for, how much it costs, and where I can find it for the best price?

Deke.

Umm the U.S. spec ops CQB guys (of which I have friends who belong to this group) use the .223 as the “got that stupid idiot through the wall†gun. IMHO never use that gun as home defense unless dem fellers are trying to steal yer water rights and ur standin yer ground. Get yourself a shotgun actually a pump shotgun. The sound of a pump is the universal sound of RUN AWAY RUN AWAY.

17Hummer,

I would be interested in which bullet the spec ops guys are using. I believe the military is transitioning to the 77gr bullet with better results than the 62gr bullet at longer ranges and of course very good penetration at close range. For home defense I would use a 40gr Vmax which according to many would not pass through 2 layers of sheetrock (not to mention my wood lath/plaster walls). The only draw back that I see to the 40gr is that you only get about 5" of penetration (ballistic gelatin) from a 16" barrel at close quarters velocities.

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
...The only draw back that I see to the 40gr is that you only get about 5" of penetration (ballistic gelatin) from a 16" barrel at close quarters velocities.
Deke.

Is that ballistic gelatin naked?
Funny things happen to results when you add clothing.

Very seldom does somebody break into your house when they are naked.

Flippy,

Oddly enough I have heard cases lately of break-ins where the intruder was naked (even in the winter, burrr.....). However, alot of the ballistic gelatin data I have seen shows a variety of information with the glatin naked, clothed lightly and heavily, behind drywall, behind plywood, behind auto glass etc. The link to the testing http://www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm#gelatin. No clothed gelatin, but some that had body armor which the 55gr load penetrated, but the 40gr did not. Maybe I have a bermuda short summer 40gr load and a 50-55gr winter load .

Deke.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:
Flippy,

Oddly enough I have heard cases lately of break-ins where the intruder was naked (even in the winter, burrr.....). However, alot of the ballistic gelatin data I have seen shows a variety of information with the glatin naked, clothed lightly and heavily, behind drywall, behind plywood, behind auto glass etc. The link to the testing http://www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm#gelatin. No clothed gelatin, but some that had body armor which the 55gr load penetrated, but the 40gr did not. Maybe I have a bermuda short summer 40gr load and a 50-55gr winter load .

Deke.

Tactical Tests This will shed some empirical light on our discussion.

Interesting info. I still wonder about my tougher plaster/wood lath walls. I hope to cut out some as part of a remodel and test it.

Deke.

Spoke to Hornady some more about the shallow penetration of their 40gr TAP load and basically they said it might not kill a perp, but would certainly hurt him, not sure I want to trust my family's survival on "hurting" the perp (I guess I will think over this aspect a bit more). I also spoke to Sierra about their bullets and they made an interesting point that I need to decide on soft tissue (lung) or harder (shoulder) for the Coyotes.

I would appreciate some good feedback from those that have used the Vmax (really want to stick with the less expensive Hornady) on Coyotes (keep in mind that I sell the fur). Is the 40gr enough to penetrate to the vitals on ANY hit/angle in the front 1/2 of a Coyote or do I need to step up to the 50gr and if I do step up to the 50 will I get big exit holes?

Deke.

Shooting a rifle in the house!!!! Are you kidding? The muzzele Blast alone would be damaging to you 16" BBL Muzzel flash could blind you.Who might you hit then? 40gr not pentatrating sheet rock? Bull sh--!!!!! Are you willing to take the chance? Dude Pump action shot gun. The sound would hopefully scare the scum bagf off. Last thing in the world you want to do is shoot some body!

There are lighter and likely more frangible .224 bullets out there, 30 grain polymer tipped IIRC.

A shotgun is a superior weapon in home defense, choked IC with #8 shot. Collateral damage is minimal, trauma on you target severe and disabling. Announce your presence with the pump if you like, I'll use muzzle blast.

Digital Dan I hate criminals. But they have Lawyers. Do you want to kill some one? Muzzele blast in the house will distract you.Don't get me wrong I'll send a Low lfe into eternity if its clear cut.Here in libreal Ca the wrong guys gets thrown in jail a bunch of times.My self I use a sig sauer 40 S&W. I'll try and tale him I have 13 chances to put out his lights. But hey if he is doped up well he's dead.

quote:

Do you want to kill some one?

In the circumstance of self defense in my home, absolutely. Not sure what you mean about muzzle blast distracting me, all meaningful firearms used in this scenario will be loud. What you don't get from a scattergun is much if any muzzle flash. What you do get is certain mayhem and less requirement for precision in shot placement, though the pattern will still be tight at household ranges.

I sense your concerns are shaped by California laws on the subject, to which I say:

1. In Florida I am not required to do anything in preamble to blasting a perp to hell in pieces. If you are in my home univited, your ass is mine.

2. Dead men do not testify.

3. I would far prefer to be judged than carried in the aftermath, 'clear cut' being established when one crosses the threshold of my home.

I do not concern myself with the polyanna theories of liberal bed-wetters in regard to the 'rights' of criminals. I will not live somewhere that requires me to rely on a political machine for protection. My litmus is very simple, and very legal here in the Windy State; I will not take prisoners. Mebbe y'all need to throw your gang of political idiots to the wolves and start over.

Ironworker,

Wrong! The last thing I want to do is watch someone harm my family. Unless a perp is on the floor begging for his life, he will get NO consideration in my home. In Colorado we cannot be prosecuted in ANY court of law for shooting someone who breaks into our home (even if it was the ice cream man and he was only carrying a snow cone).

I would much rather take my chances in giving the perp (thats holding my kid) a third eye with my 223 than with a scattergun. Collateral damage is alot less and the swat guys are using this approach and experiencing NO penetration through 2-layers of 1/2" drywall with the 40gr VMax, besides my walls are 2-layers of 7/8" plaster reinforced with wood lath. The 223 will be flash suppressed and will blind me less than the scattergun. As for the muzzle blast, who cares? I have shots many head of big game and with the adrenaline flowing, I don't even know if I ever notice the sound or recoil anyway. However, it is wise to test, and I will on some plaster wall sections I have to remove for remodeling. I will let all know what I find.

My only question now is whether the 50gr VMax is too much for Coyotes and if the 40gr VMAx will penetrate to the vitals on any angled hit in the front 1/2 of a Coyote.....

Deke.

Deke, I'm not going to wade into the self defense issue too deep. I have some CQB training and the training is by far more important than the choice of weapon. I'd look into the lightest HP I could get the rifle to shoot then I'd test it.

On to 'Yotes! I have been using the Speer 52gr HP with the large opening for years out of my mini-14 for fur. It never exits if the shooter hits center of mass. In fact the only time I remember an exit was a neck shot. Sierra makes a good flat base HP with a large opening that has also been very good but does exit occasionally on really close ones. I tried every plastic tipped bullet but found they did more fur damage. The Hornady SX was terrific in a contender but the bullets came apart in flight out of the mini and at .22-250 velocities. To fast a twist? I also tried the 40gr sp from Speer but they made a mess a few times. That was back when we were averaging $50 a hide.
I'd try two bullets for each specific purpose. Nate

I want to get out of California badly .I love the weather hate the politics.As far as criminals go. Kill'em all and let God sort them out.

BigNate, I used that same bullet out of my 22-250, but did not consider it for the 223 since the velocity is much lower, but now you got me rethinking......

Ironworker, my philosophy exactly, we have a just god, and an unjust judicial. I am glad that when it comes to home defense that I will be judged by the former and not the latter.

Deke.

I've wondered about using the Hornady spsx but at lower velocities too. You'll have to try some stuff out and post results.

As for home defense, I've seen the Glazer slugs tested inside an airplane. The rifle would be comfy for me if I had time to deploy it/me in a surprise and thats where for me it's far easier to count on a handgun.
Train your family what to do, where to go, how to evacuate (&alternate), and last, how to set up from a defensive position. If they know what to do, and you know what they've been taught, the outcome will likely turn out better. The unprepared/surprised are usually willing victims.

This is probably the scariest situation I can picture myself in. I've been through other stuff but having my wife and children part of a bad situation is hard to imagine! Nate

Hey Deke Grab your Bible look up Luke 22:36. Look at what Jesus Christ (God the Son) says about personel defense.He is the standard for right and wrong.

Ironworker,

That is interesting scripture.
"Then he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Lu22:36 Very interesting that Jesus told them (among other things) to essentially sell their coat and to buy a sword...... in light of the need to defend and to protect.

More for you:
"Do not stand still when your neighbor's life is in danger" Lev19:16

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John15:13

So what do you think, did Paul and the rest of the apostles carry heat?

Correct me if I am wrong, I don't want to blasphemy.

Deke.

You didn't ask me but I believe they did!
In the garden of Githsemanie(sp?) wasn't it Peter who drew his sword and took off the ear of a soldier? Nate

No fear of Blasphemy(Blasphemy is calling God the Holy spirit a liar) Context is absoulutly critical in Bible interpratation. We are to resist evil. If someone trys to kill or harm you are some one in your line of sight.That is evil.Far as I'm concerned we can resist with a bullet.One other thing Its by the Grace(unmerited favor) of Almighty God if he allows us to see it coming.The bible clearly teaches God knows when we will breath our last breath.(Psalm 139:16)..... God willing we will all live to hunt another day.However there is a one out of one chance we will die some day ands stand and give an account of our lives befor him Hebrews 9:27.

Nate You scored a Bullseye!!!!! Then Jesus pick up the soldiers ear and put it back on. Later Peter went on to be an awesome apostle and God the Holy Spirit used his personality & Life to write a couple of Books in the Bible.

BigNate and Ironworker,

This is a good tangent on the thread and a discussion that is good to have in the open.

When I read Luke22:36 I did so quickly and did not note that this was before he was arrested. Like BigNate said, in Luke22:49-50 it is very obvious that they were carrying swords. What is your take on Matt26:52 "Put your sword back in its place,......for all who draw the sword will die by the sword?" From later in Matthew and also in John18:11, I take it as Jesus basically saying, I could call on an army of angels if I wanted to, don't fight this fight because this needs to happen, and (a) if you choose to fight this with your sword you will die against overwhelming force (meaning you don't have my army of angels and cannot do it on your own), and/or (b) if you don't let me be crucified you will not be able to drink from the cup of salvation, therefore dieing a spiritual death as well as a physical one.

Deke.

Context of all of scripture is needed in any interpration. Our perpose in life is to be loved by God and to Love him back. We do this by placing our whole trust in him.Not our guns.Its by his grace if he alows to even have the oppertunitry to defend our selves.So if we live by the Gun and not every word of God. It like everything man has created is going to let us down.So in short Trust God not our own wisdom. I'm in a hurry now read Proverbs 3. Can" remember the exact vs.

I believe man has distorted many teachings in the Bible, and has created division due to the "interpreting" that goes on. I believe the Bible was written for all to read and to follow. It's when people start trying to tell me "what God meant when he said....." that I get pissed off.

It ( the Bible) is straight forward. I can read.

This tangent is good, but we could have an entire thread discussing religion and it would never end.
The english Bible was translated, was it done correctly? If you look at all the religions in the world, most have some commonalities. Did they all originate from the incident at the Tower of Babylon?

This is getting deep and way off topic! Have you tried any of the bullets suggested? What type of training do you have? Nate

Its been said That NASB (New AmericanStandard Bible) Is the most accurate word for word. The NIV New Internationel Version) is most accurate Thought for thought. Your right deep subject.... Trainng no tatical of any kind I'm just a long time handloader gun Nut who Thinks I know what I'm taking about.( I think). Hey Bro for a wealth of accurate up to date Bible Info click on equip.org.( I hope I got that write) If not get back to me.

All: I and my family have been kicked out of two major religions (Mormon & Catholic) so I will stay out of the religious aspects of this posting.
But someone above mentioned that muzzle blasts (flashes) will distract, interfere or otherwise impede shooting in a darkened room (place). Well I have another opinion (opposing) based on much experience.
In fact the muzzle blast (flash) will illuminate not only the room but the intruder AND YOUR SIGHTS if you KNOW that it is going to happen you can take advantage of these things!
Indeed I was trained and repeatedly tested in this exact situation!
The training consisted of going into a very darkened room standing against a wall and then one would begin firing at the opposing side of the room! The muzzle blast would illuminate the room allowing me to see the body size sillohuette target and also allowing for sight alignment. Now I was ALWAYS able to hit the targets kill zone with at least 4 of 6 rounds and often times 5 of 6 times!
Rapid fire is actually best for this type firing.
So if one has access to a range at night or better yet an old building in a safe area to shoot in this is a very enlightening, interesting and valuable form of practice!
Try it sometime and you will be surprised how very well defined your sights will be in the muzzle flash! If I can do it then anyone can!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hey now that is helpfull about the Muzzele Blast..... Kicked Out!!! Good thing Mormen is a Cult. Catolic is a ritual. They mix truth with church Traditions which are wrong. Try a Christian Church. The biggest one you can find.DON'T GIVE UP!!!!! There really is just one truth out there and it transends Time,space,culture.Its eternel. What is that truth. "Mercy from God can't be obtaine by living a "GooD Life"" Doing The Best you can"or any kind of works.Its by Grace and Grace alone.

And by Grace and Grace alone..... Amen!

Deke.

In spite of all that I still prefer a shotgun.