"The 17 HMR is the most accurate rimfire cartridge ever produced"!
This is the bold headline from the second page of a 10 page article renowned outdoor writer John Barsness wrote and had published in the May 2,005 issue of "Rifle" Magazine!
I just re-read his fine 10 page article on "Smaller Varmint Cartridges". And I wonder why it did not stick in my mind from the my first perusal and initial reading? Maybe I was paying to much attention to the article on the then new Remington XR-100? That article is the reason I originally bought this issue.
While I only disagree with about 2% of Mr. Barsness's lengthy article, I could not agree more with his appraisal of the wonderful little 17 HMR.
He lauds the 17 HMR to the same degree and for the same reasons I do. His experiences over the decades with all the other rimfires (accuracy and lethality wise) so very much parrallels mine! He is clearly SOLD on the 17 HMR and so am I.
The purpose of this posting is to try and motivate any of you "slow to try a 17 HMR types" to get off your duffs before Colony Varmint season is full upon us and BUY ONE!
Virtually ALL of the serious Varminters I Hunt with already have a 17 HMR Rifle in their Varmint arsenals but again I am trying to motivate you folks that may be on the fence. Obtaining a copy of Mr. Barsness's fine and full article from the May 2,005 issue of Rifle Magazine would be an eye opener and motivator I am sure for many folks.
If you can't find a copy I will make a copy of it and send it to you if you are interested!
Mr. Barsness makes mention that he was at first unimpressed with the "media hype" concerning the 17 HMR and he held off for a couple years until he could no longer ignore the 17 HMR.
He had to try one (CZ) for himself!
His results are entertainingly described and profound to those interested in the rimfire world!
Anyone intersted in the article that can't find it just E-mail me at: VarmintGuy@aol.com
My heavy barrel 17 HMR Rifle (Ruger 77/17 VMBBZ) is sighted in and ready for extended duty here this spring, summer and fall on all manner of Varmints!
The new Ruger 2,006 catalog (page 7) shows the comparative trajectories of all four popular rimfire cartridges available today and when sighted in to be dead on at the muzzle (!) the chart shows their "Comparative Trajectories"! This chart shows the 17 HMR as having a 14" flatter trajectory at 200 yards than the 22 Magnum! 36" flatter trajectory than the 22 L.R. and about a 4" flatter trajectory than the 17 Mach2! The folks at Ruger also put this somewhat unspecific statement on the same page of their catalog "The 17 calibers provide flatter trajectories and superior accuracy compared to the 22 WMR and the 22 L.R."!
Anyway the sport shops shelves are finally full of several different brands of 17 HMR ammo and in a few different bullet offerings as well!
Careful shoppers can find 17 HMR ammo at "livable" prices these days!
My Ruger 77/17 V prefers the Remington 17 grain V-Max type offering as does my S&W Model 647 pistol.
Nifty and impressive this 17 HMR cartridge is!
I highly recommend you try one if you haven't got one already.
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I love mine for the accuracy (I have the left handed Savage 93). Lot's of fun with no recoil.

Hey VG;I am waiting on mine,I bought a S&W 647 from our friend Jason at Shedhorn.But that was way to much barrel for me,it was incredibly accurate but way to much barrel for me so I sent it to Ben Forkin up at White Sulphur Springs to trim it to 5 1/2 inches.Well Ben ,who is a good gunsmith and really inquisitive took it to the range to check velocity and accuracy before and and after the shortened barrel.He told me he had to get it finished because he and his son took it to the range and shot up all the ammo I sent him.He had to go to Helena to buy more.w/regards

Well, I have several of them available for sale or trade.....

I never got the 17 HMR bug I guess....

prefer the 223 still....

VG, Kudos!! for your post!! I have either owned or put together(scopes and rifles and Stikers) at least 30 or the little beasts!!! Marlin, Savage, Remington, NEF, T/C....whatever!! The thing that has amazed me is that no matter the configuration, they all shoot unbeleivably!!! If you have a 17HMR that won't shoot 5 shots under a nickel at 100 yards, either you can't shoot or the wind was blowing tremendously and I would tend to think the first malady exists!! The norm from all the ones I've tested and that includes the 597's is that they will consistently produce the tightest 100 yard groups of any available rimfire cartridge!! NO COMPETITION!!! And they do offer LETHALITY on varmints second to none other rimfire in those ranges!! I just bought another "brick" of the HORNADY 17 grain original loading for 7.83/50 last week.....had I ordered them in December it would have been 7.18/50!!!
As far as the comparison of the 223 to the 17HMR......apples to oranges!!! The 223 is a superior round to the 17HMR!! No doubt!! But the original post had to do with rimfires!! Now if you want to being the 223 into the discussion, IT SUCKS compared to a 222MAG or the 22-250!!! GHD

PS!!! Long live the 17HMR!!!!

GHD: I to keep an eye out for "MY" favorite 17 HMR cartridges being on sale and buy them only when the price is right!
I have bought them from retail outlets for as little as $6.99 per 50. And I have done some wheeling and dealing on the wholesale level on several occassions as well.
I agree with your accuracy observations - I even saw a fellow with the Winchester 94/17 with the beautiful pistol grip butt stock shooting at the range one day! He was only shooting at 50 yards but he had made a one hole group out on his big bullseye target that was the size of a quarter! I think he ran the whole magazine's worth of ammo into the group (10 - 12 shots?). He had a scope on it!
I always wanted one of those handsome Winchester 94's with the pistol grip buttstock and fancy wood/checkering. I guess that dream may be out the window with the demise of Winchester?
I to have as yet to see my first "inaccurate" 17 HMR Rifle!
I do not fully understand the dynamic or the compilation of factors that mandates the 17 HMR rimfires be accurate but it must have something to do with the chamber and throat configuration, quality of barrels and ammunition quality!
I don't know!
I just know the speedy little 17 HMR bullets get downrange real fast and maybe that keeps the wind from messing with their precise destination much!
I wonder if the Anshutz people make a full blown target Rifle in 17 HMR or if anyone is using a 17 HMR in the 22 Bench Rest discipline?
Yep long live the 17 HMR!

Gophershooter: It sounds like your smith and his kids have found out what an accurate and fun round the 17 HMR is!
I hope with that 2 7/8" shorter barrel it still retains its accuracy!
Let me know how it shoots for you when you get it back! If you get it back? LOL! Just kidding.

Seafire/B17G: You live in a state with some of the best Ground Squirrel shooting on earth and you don't care to retain a 17 HMR?
Whats that about?
While you are wasting time chasing 223 brass all over eastern Oregon I will be whanging away at mounds full of Gophers with my 17 HMR!
To each their own I guess!

Fjold: I have two left handed Varminting friends and one "makes do" with a Ruger 77/17 V/T like mine and the other has a CZ heavy barrel in 17 HMR. Both have right bolts but they make do quite handily in fact.
They just seem to get along very well from the south paw side of their Rifles! I know that I have on many occassions over the years have had to fire my right handed Rifles from my left shoulder and its very difficult and awkward for me to do. I just have not had as much practice as my south paw friends have in this switch over!
By the way there Fjold I watch the girl in the blue sweater walking down the street sometimes for 20 minutes at a time! Does her shirt ever fall off or wear through from friction?

I may open this discussion (thread) up to this query - what range do you (and do you recommend a 17 HMR newbie Varminter) zero your 17 HMR's for?
I have my 17 HMR Rifle sighted to be dead on at 125 yards. This sight in dead on distance allows me to hold on hair for most Varmints as far as I care to shoot at them. Beyond 160 or 170 yards I invoke the use of my Laser Rangefinder and hold over accordingly.
I killt a large winged Varmint last year at 229 yards as I recall and it is the furthest Varmint I have brought to bag with my 17 HMR.
I think the 125 yard sight in distance would serve the 17 HMR Varmint Hunter well.
Long live the 17 HMR!
Careful shot placement equals dead Varmints.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Can anyone advise if Winchester have stopped the manufacture of any of their lever actions in this calibre?
Or is it that they have simply stopped making all rifles period?

quote:

Seafire/B17G: You live in a state with some of the best Ground Squirrel shooting on earth and you don't care to retain a 17 HMR?
Whats that about?
While you are wasting time chasing 223 brass all over eastern Oregon I will be whanging away at mounds full of Gophers with my 17 HMR!
To each their own I guess!

VG<

I am a single shot shooting varminter....one at a time so no chasing brass....Between the price of ammo... and the lack of red mist... yeah the bug just hasn't bitten me... I own 4 different 17s, 2 Marlins, one NEF and one Ruger Heavy Barrel 17 HRM....

I will keep the Ruger, as it is going to my son, who is 11 now....The Marlins will probably go....

Nothing negative on the cartridge.. it is accurate etc.....Just too much addiction to RED Mist and EXPLODING varmints.. That the 17 doesn't give me....

And a CZ 452, takes up the rimfire bug, with the ability to do head shots at 125 yds with a scope with a target turrent set up ( Stoney Points)... and some 10/22s....

So I just don't have a warm heart for it personally... But as I say, with the Ruger and the NEF I am still in the club.. just not the most active member....

I have also gotten cold on my long time favorite 22 Mag also... Just what is this world coming to????

For those that care about its ability to perform tho.... I have dispatched a deer that was hit by a car, and was suffering out in a field...A head shot with the HMR put it down.....Some "Native Americans" salvaged the carcass....So it has a thump to it with shots put in the vital spot...

cheers
seafire



PS: for you tree huggers, I am not advocating the cartridge as a Deer Cartridge with that tidbit above....

I want one in an Annie MPR 64 !! Just struggling to find the $1120 AUS I need thats the only missing piece of the equation

I've killed a lot of gopher's and prairie dogs, the 17HMR & 17M2 are very effective out to 200 yards or so. I still shoot more of them with my 223Rem than any other caliber however.

That does not preclude me from brining along several rifles on each shoot. The 17HMR CZ, Kimber LongMaster in 204Ruger, Blaser R93's in 223Rem & 6.5x55 and a MAK Tube Gun in 6mmBR Norma.

You never know when you'll need the boomers for the long range stuff.

This was printed as someone opinion. Its never fact if it is just an opinion. They are a good little rifle, but I still perferr my 223. Good article though, and I am glad you like your 17.

Gunz & F224: How do your 17's perform accuracy wise?
And remember comparing a centerfire 223 Remington with a rimfire 17 HMR is a bit of a stretch fairness wise - isn't it!
Yep I prefer the 223's and my various other centerfires for many of my Varminting needs but the 17 HMR is now BY FAR my favorite rimfire Varmint round.
Accuracy is the main reason for my preference followed by flat trajectory and good wind bucking ability along with the surprising "lethality factor" of the 17 HMR. I attribute this lethality factor to very speedy bullets and quality bullet construction for the job intended.
The point of my posting was (and is) how accurate, lethal and fun the little 17 HMR, is.
Its just no fun for me to plunk Gophers and Prairie Dogs at 100 to 150 yards with any of my centerfires. The 17 HMR really does make this type shooting a "ton of fun"!
I just took to breakfast a 65 year old Montana native (you can tell he is a native because when breakfast came he took his lip full of "tobaccy" and threw it on the floor of the restaurant!). This "native" has been fighting the Gopher wars here in Montana since he was 6 or 7 years old! He has used the venerable and pretty effective 22 L.R. all those years! For the last two years he has been taking some turns shooting the Gophers with my Ruger 77/17 V/T.
He is now willing to buy a rimfire in a caliber other than 22 L.R. and indeed asked my advice about which 17 HMR to buy!
I put up with his various and slightly "off putting" tobacco habits because he has "the keys" to some splendid Ground Squirrel shooting grounds! And I am often invited along!
So I somewhat reluctantly put up with his "chaw" and spitting brown juice all over and little things like that!
Anyway I would be interested in hearing about your accuracy impressions of the 17 HMR compared to various other rimfires you may be familiar with.
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Don't get me wrong, I have an outstanding example of the .17HMR shown below in front(Cooper with 17x USO variable.)and it is a stellar performer. Chief advantage is that there is no need for ear protectors and to 150 yards or so, it is more than adequate on gophers and prairie dogs. I think it belongs in any varmint hunters battery.



However the new varmint superstar in my arsenal is the .204 Ruger M700. I am totally impressed!(32 VMAX at around 4000fps. vs 17 Vmax at 2600)
Thing is very accurate as shown in third picture:

I bought a .17hmr early on and i DO agree it is a very acurate round. However I never fell in love with the cartridge. I used it exclusively for about 3 months as my carry around "truck gun" and found it to be deadly on PD's out to about 175 yards. It was too affected by wind and drop to be of much use beyond that range. During that time I shot 3 coyotes and one fox. One coyote buckled in it's tracks with a broken neck. (which was an accident cause the wind difflected the shot) However the next coyote was hit multiple times and never was recovered. the same with a fox. The next time I shot a coyote, it Yipped, side stepped and bit at it's side then proceded to run over the hill and Get away. The .17hmr went back in the gun closet and has yet to reemerge. It was replace as my "truck gun" By my Rem788 in .223. A much more versatile gun for a beater rifle. It has handled everything it's has been pointed at so far including a Large Mountain lion on wednesday. . The .17hmr......Accurate yes, But i Always felt under gunned with it.

Ricky

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Well, I have several of them available for sale or trade.....

I never got the 17 HMR bug I guess....

prefer the 223 still....

I have a 17HRM, and it puts a 1" hole through the squirrel.

I have a .223, and with Blue Dot loads, it blows the squirrels appart.

I've gone through three .17 HMRs and must agree that accuracy has been consistently superb. However, one of my .22 Magnums, a plain-Jane, Marlin Model 25MN, will give the .17s a run for their money any day when it comes to bragging rights on the range. As to hunting, though, the .22 Magnum wins out every time. Part of that statement can be based on my location -- south central Texas -- as there are very few small varmints to pursue. 'Coons' coyotes, fox and bobcat are most common. For fox, the .17 HMR does just fine, but I have found it lacking tremendously on coyotes and 'coon and won't pull the trigger on another one with a .17 HMR unless a head shot can be ensured. For years, I have used a .22 Magnum in calling areas where the range is certain to be short. And out to 100 yards, it has worked beautifully on 'coons, 'cats and 'yotes. The longest I ever had an animal move after a solid hit with the .22 WMR is app. 80 yards, and that was due to poor shot placement (it later turned out that the scope was wacko). Coyotes sometime go 30-40 yards after the shot, but 'cats generally hit the ground where they stood. With the HMR, even 'possums and 'coon occasionally gave no indication of a hit and would take off like nothing happened; some proved difficult to find as the country I hunt can be wickedly full of briars, thorns and assorted prickly underbrush. Performance is somewhat better when using the Hornady 20 grain XTP as opposed to the 17 grain V-Max, but the end result, for me, was still not satisfactory. In fact, for utilitarian use, I'd actually choose the old .22 LR over the .17 HMR as long as it would be loaded with WW Power Points, which feature a full 40 grain weight along with a gaping hollow point. Here around the farm, the Power Points have served me well on a number of critters, including coyotes and feral dogs. No, the .22 LR isn't my choice for hunting larger varmints, but for protecting the chickens, etc. around the barnyard, it does just fine.

If I lived in good ground squirrel country or near prairie dog towns, my opinion of the .17 HMR would probably be different. But for me, it really doesn't fill a niche or serve a true purpose.

DMCI*: Great looking Rifles there!
Nice group with the 204 as well!
Out of about 30 five shot groups I have fired with my three 204's 7 of them measured in the 3's at 100 yards! Those thirty+ groups were all that were needed to find accurate loadings and then re-verify sight in for 3 different 204 Rilfes!
I to am amazed at the ease of obtaining and maintaining accuracy with the 204!
The best 5 shot 100 yard group my Ruger 77/17 V/T in 17 HMR has shot is a VERY respectable .502"!
I agree with many of the posters here that the centerfires will do MANY things the 17 HMR's can't but that is simply solved by picking the right Rifle (cartridge) for the job at hand! I ususally carry more than one Varmint Rifle when I am headed out for a days Varminting. It seems that the 17 HMR is always along with me on these occassions.
I tend to disagree though with those that have no confidence in the lethality of the 17 HMR on the larger Varmints! I have only killt 2 Coyotes with my 17 HMR but both were one shot kills at 100 yards.
I have also killed with one shot a large Boar Badger at 173 lasererd yards! Badgers are known to be able to pack away a lot of lead! I struck this big Badger in the throat as it was looking at me and it never moved an inch after it was hit!
I have also killed large Porcupine, large Rock Chucks, feral cats, Jack Rabbits and other medium to large Varmints with impressive results lethality wise!
Yes care must be taken to strike the vitals of these larger Varmints but its doable to a degree that I have no hesitations using it.
Nope the 17 HMR is no centerfire and I never contended so. But it is (for me and John Barsness anyway) the most accurate rimfire available today.
As I write this I am looking out the window at what I am sure is a Vixen (female) Fox! She has made her home in an old den that has been used by Fox in the past. She has been here about two weeks now.
I am of course, so tempted to take a shot at her but the Fox in this region were decimated by the plague 3 -4 years ago and for two years virtually NO Fox were seen. Normally I had been seeing 2 to 10 a day romping in the fields.
Anyway as much as I want to slip a 17 HMR bullet into this Fox and take the still fully furred (but paling) pelt for my wall - I have decided not to. I will wait a few more eyears for the Fox to re-populate! I have no doubt what so ever that I could harvest this Fox cleanly and quickly with my 17 HMR.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

i love my rem 597.have killed 7 yotes so far and more coons then i can remember.this is buy far one of my fav.varment rifles.was a big fan of the 22 mags.not any more sold them all.long live the 17hmr.

Williamhill: Good for you and the Remington 597 doing so well on the Coyotes!
I know a fellow here in SW Montana that also uses the 17 HMR on Coyotes and has killed over 30 of them now. He is the type of fellow though that may not "enumerate" any Coyotes that may have been shot and not recovered! So I do not quote from his comments very often. I have seen several Coyotes he has taken and he travels with just one Rifle in his rig so I believe he has been upfront with most of his stories. He is a pelt saver type and of course the 17 HMR does no damage to speak of to Coyotes pelts.
Keep up the good work as there are lots of Coyotes still out there!
By the way what part of the world are you Hunting the Coyotes in (or the type of terrain, cover etc)?
17 HMR's forever!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

With my CZ452-2E, it wears a Leupold 2-7x RF scope, has been glass bedded, free floated and had the trigger cleaned up. It will shoot .75" groups at 100 yards all day with CCI 17gr ammo.

I have used the 20gr XTP bullets also, not as accurate, but the penetration is great. I shot a 35lb snapping turtle last summer with it. It dropped at the shot, I was aiming at the head but jerked it into it's shell just above the right leg. (No jokes about it being a running shot, please!) Through and through penetration with a .25" hole on the opposite side. I would have never guessed.

Two summers ago a great friend of mine bounced three shots from his 17HMR of the forehead of a badger. We were pretty stupid in reality, we had two 223Rem guns between us in the pickup cab, why we did not use the bigger guns is beyond me. The critter shook them off and ran away.

Great round for the really small stuff, not reliable enough for me to use on anything bigger than about 10-15 pounds.

f224, How far was the badger????? if it was 150 yards or less your friend either (1) was not proficient with his rifle or (2) got"buck fever" while shooting at the varmint!! If he had struck the badger (as you stated, in the head) the badger would have died!!! If he was using inferior optics, and the wind was blowing a bit, and he was not an accomplished rifleman, WHY DID HE TAKE THE SHOT???????????? GHD

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
I've gone through three .17 HMRs and must agree that accuracy has been consistently superb. However, one of my .22 Magnums, a plain-Jane, Marlin Model 25MN, will give the .17s a run for their money any day when it comes to bragging rights on the range.

Yep, I have one too, a 25MC (Camo) model with a Leupold Vari X-II 3X9 and a little trigger job, 3 crisp lbs. It will indeed give the 17’s a run for their money and premium ammo for a 22Mag is cheaper, too. Left one guy at the range with a Ruger 77/17 V/T just shaking his head like f224's badger:

quote:

Originally posted by f224:
Two summers ago a great friend of mine bounced three shots from his 17HMR off the forehead of a badger. We were pretty stupid in reality, we had two 223Rem guns between us in the pickup cab, why we did not use the bigger guns is beyond me. The critter shook them off and ran away.

Great round for the really small stuff, not reliable enough for me to use on anything bigger than about 10-15 pounds.

If I need more power or range the CZ, H&R or Bushmaster .223s or the 6mm Rem comes out. Ammo for the .223’s is nearly the same money as a 17HMR, less if I handload.

VG, the “ballistic depiction†or whatever you would call that cartoon graph in Ruger’s catalog does not represent modern, premium, 22Mag ammo according to any ballistic programs or published information I could find.
Looks more like the old Dyna Point ammo than CCI Maxi-Mag +V, Remington Premier or Winchester Supreme.

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
f224, How far was the badger????? if it was 150 yards or less your friend either (1) was not proficient with his rifle or (2) got"buck fever" while shooting at the varmint!! If he had struck the badger (as you stated, in the head) the badger would have died!!! If he was using inferior optics, and the wind was blowing a bit, and he was not an accomplished rifleman, WHY DID HE TAKE THE SHOT???????????? GHD

GHD, HE HIT IT ON THE FOREHEAD!
No mention of inferior marksmanship here that I read.

If he had pulled out his .223, it wouldn't have mattered if it was LOTS farther away than 150 yards.
It would have been DRT.
Live and learn...

GHD-I have a question for you: Of the 3 .17 HMRs I have owned, all shot extremely well with everything EXCEPT the CCI 17 grainer. For whatever reason, groups ran 1.25-1.5" at 100 yards with this ammo, though I will admit I only tried one lots of it. Perhaps later lots are much improved.

Has this been your experience as well?

Thanks,
Bobby

I never got the 17 bug either. I have several 22s and a 223. Really dont see tha advantage to owning one. Ammo is too expensive for the performance. I plink with the 22 and shoot anything out to 100 yards. If I need more I can pull out the 223 and outshoot the 17 for less money. I just dont need one.

Bobby: the Marlin 17V you sold me has a real quirk; the 20gr XTP's vs the 17gr Hornady's print 3" apart at 100yds...windage-wise!
I thought I shot at the wrong dot the first time it happened, but it is a repeatable deed.
Barrel doesn't touch in the forearm, but there are some serious harmonics at play in that barrel.
The 17HMR is nuthin' special to me, just a good barn gun. Happy with it, especially with the deal you gave me.
Having a 17AH and a 17MIV to take afield for more serious shooting is my preference. Major splat factor on crows when using the 17 centerfires, and 17MIV will certainly ruin a coyote's day if the opportunity arises.

Flippy: I have seen 3 (three) Badgers shot with 17 HMR Rifles and all went "tits up"!
I have a Badger skull down in my den (along with the skulls of Cougar, Coyote, Fox, Rock Chucks, Prairie Dogs, Beaver and some others I have forgotten) and the Badger does not seem to have an especially thick skull!
I have not shot a Badger in the head with a 17 HMR but I have done so with both 22 LR's and 22 Magnums in the past and that again leads to dead Badgers!
I do not know what to tell you about the "ricocheting" bullets off of that Badgers head!
What was the range you guys were shooting at if you remember?
Shame the Badger got away!
They are a true Varmint Trophy!
I have a "priceless" picture of the youngest VarmintSon with a very ncie Badger he took with my Marlin bolt action 22 Magnum! He killt it with one shot from the 22 Magnum in the "frontal area"! I always ask Varminters what they notice strange about the picture! I slyly posed the VarmintSon in front of a 7 (seven!) strand barbed wire fence! Even the most intent Deer and Antelope in their first year COULD NOT get through that fence! That rancher should be thrown into that fence about twice a week til he removes four of those strands!
And for the really observant Gun cranks no one has as yet been able to point out that the scope on that Marlin Rifle the VarmintSon is posing with is an old Bausch & Lomb Balvar type with no external adjustments! The Millet style all steel grooved receiver rings had to be shimmed to achieve sight in "zero".
When I shoot Badgers anymore its ALWAYS with the intent of saving the pelt - and when I get a big enough one with thick enough fur I want it full body mounted! I have some Badgers that were pelted and tanned for wall hangings.
So I do not aim at the head of the Badgers anymore. Again I do not have any experience with the 17 HMR and head shots on Badgers!
Mystery to me?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Mulerider-

My latest HMR also printed the 2 Hornady loads with nearly 3 inches variance. Ballistic Tip loads vs. flat-based soft points tend to do the same things in some of my centerfires (though not 3 inches!), but I did not expect this much difference in the rimfires.

Anyone else experiencing this with the HMR?