Disclaimer: These are results from shooting this ammunition in My Gun.
They may not work or might even be dangerous in your gun. Use the data at
your own risk.

I was at the range yesterday. Just for the heck of it, I here is some
range test data FYA. Load 4 looks like a winner. I have the QuickLOAD
predicted MV in the table as well.

Load test set was 7 powder charges of H4350, 3 rounds each from 34.4g
to 38.1g as listed below.

Hornady 75g A-MAX seated out to 2.64" COL, twice fired neck sized brass,
H4350, WLR primer, bullets seated using a Redding competition seating
die with no crimp. Rifle, Savage Model 12 LRPV, .22-250 Remington, 9"
Twist, Bushnell 6-24x40mmAO scope set on 12X. Range 100 yards. Wind
1-10 mph from about -150 degrees ( left rear quarter). 55F and sunny. 3
rounds per load.

Measurements are in Minutes of Arc (MOA) because it is more useful than
inches for extrapolating down range. MS = Maximum Spread is biggest
center to center distance in any direction. AGR = Average Group Radius.
You will see QL in the table followed by a number which is predicted
muzzle velocity. QL is QuickLOAD, a modeling program for internal
ballistics.

Test data:

Load 1, 34.4g, 3058 fps ave, 0.73 MS, 0.29 AGR, QL = 3056
Load 2, 35.1g, 3158 fps ave, 0.81 MS, 0.32 AGR, DV=100 fps, QL = 3118
Load 3, 35.8g, 3227 fps ave, 0.62 MS, 0.28 AGR, DV= 69 fps, QL = 3179

Load 4, 36.5g, 3282 fps ave, 0.21 MS, 0.09 AGR, DV= 55 fps, QL = 3239

Load 5, 37.2g, 3352 fps ave, 0.44 MS, 0.16 AGR, DV= 70 fps, QL = 3300
Load 6, 37.9g, 3410 fps ave, 0.69 MS, 0.31 AGR, DV= 58 fps, QL = 3360
Load 7, 38.1g, 3429 fps ave, 0.53 MS, 0.22 AGR, DV= 19 fps, QL = 3377

Load 4 is clearly the best
for group size by a noticeable margin.

Looking at the results certainly makes trying 38.6g tempting to see if
the group size dips again. I'm thinking about it but haven't done it yet.
I've already pushed the envelope a bit beyond the manual to compensate
for how far out the bullet is set compared to the manual COL. I used
QL to get a charge (38.1g) that would bring the pressure back up to
parity with the manual load. I was prepared to pull the bullets if
the work up through the loads showed any evidence of pressure issues.

At the range I started at 34.4g and worked my way up chronographing at
each stage, inspecting the brass, paying attention to how the bolt
opens. The bolt opens as easily at 38.1g as it did at 34.4g, brass
shows no pressure signs at all. The delta MV/0.1g is staying more or
less constant. The last charge increase is only 0.2g so the 19fps (9.5
fps per 0.1g of charge increase) isn't out of line with the others, so I
think I'm still in the linear region for this powder. I may yet try it.

It was also interesting to see how the group migrates around as a
function of changing muzzle exit times. Loads 4, 5, and 6 stayed
centered and only moved the group center up slightly each time.
Load 3 was both lower and off to the left about an inch.


I want to try some IMR4007SSC powder with this bullet to see how
that works. It worked great for the twin of my LRPV rifle with
a 75g Scirroco II in the November issue of Shooting Times.

Fitch

quote:

Originally posted by Fitch:
Hornady 75g A-MAX seated out to 2.64" COL, Fitch

Am I right in assuming the rifle has a relativly deep throat? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Fitch:
Hornady 75g A-MAX seated out to 2.64" COL, Fitch

Am I right in assuming the rifle has a relativly deep throat? roger

I'm not sure how to define a deep throat on a rifle. I can give you the dimensions and maybe you can tell me.

The actual distance from the base of the cartridge to where the ogive touches the lands is ~2.091" as close as I can measure it.

Does that make it deep throated? I'm asking. I don't know the definition of deep throated.

Thanks
Fitch

quote:

Originally posted by Fitch:
The actual distance from the base of the cartridge to where the ogive touches the lands is ~2.091" as close as I can measure it.

Does that make it deep throated? I'm asking. I don't know the definition of deep throated.
ThanksFitch

Close roger

quote:

I don't know the definition of deep throated.

Linda Lovelace would , but a car accident took her away....

What is your Cartridge OAL?

I have a one in 8 twist on a Ruger...

HIHLY detailed report... and doing these, I can appreciate the level and amount of work that you put into this to share with your fellow forum members!

a hearty THANK YOU!

For what it may be worth, playing with a batch of powders in mine.. IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 seemed to give the best accuracy results with pretty darn good velocity...

If you are just going for accuracy, I can also add that the 75 grain HP Match Hornady has proven to be more accurate in both my Factory Savage 223, and also my Ruger's Pac Nor Barrel in 22.250...

Also loads good for the 75 grainers seem to also hold good for accuracy and similar velocity with the 77 and 80 grain Match bullets and the 80 grain A Max...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

I don't know the definition of deep throated.

What is your Cartridge OAL?

Thanks. You are welcome. There will be more as I get the data.

These cartridges were 2.64" COL which puts the Ogive ~0.020" off the lands in this rifle.

My plan is to find the load range that groups well, then load a bunch in the middle of that range at different setback distances from the lands to see if there is improvement available.

I am working on better measuring tools - a home made version of the (former) Stoney Point tool for bolt actions is in the planning stages.

The November 2007 Shooting Times has an article about loading 75g Scirocco II bullets for the 9" twist .22-250 LRPV. His best groups were with IMR4007SSC which I can't find anyplace locally. I called my favorite rifle store (Schuman's in Newville, PA if it matters), they said they will pick me up a pound of it on their next supply run which will be in 2 weeks.

Meanwhile, I started 0.4g below the best group with H4350 and loaded 4 round sets at 0.2g increments up to 0.4g beyond the best group above. This will be my next range test, maybe as early as tomorrow if the sun shines. That should tell me how wide the range of good groups is. I'd like to settle on mid range to promote consistancy given unavoidable variations in powder charges intended to be the same.

Fitch

I am watching your post closely. I just ordered a new Krieger barrel for my 22-250. My goal is to shoot the 75 grain bullet. Krieger advised a 1in8 twist. I was hoping to shoot H414. Do you have any experience with the H414?? I wanted to see impacts with my new rifle. Is yours ported?? Can you see impacts with your faster loads?? My new Krieger barrel is 28 inches long. They said it would weigh 7# @ 26 inches. So the barrel should weigh slightly over 7#. Tom.

I had been contemplating getting a 22 caliber 1-9 twist barreled rifle for some time other than the 2ea. .223s I have. I was even thinking of a new( for what reason?) wildcat. After digesting your post here and playing some mind games I bought the Savage varmint long range today in 22-250 with the 9 twist. I than thanked my wife for my Christmas gift. Thanks for pushing me over the edge. What a guy! roger

quote:

Originally posted by HEAD0001:
I am watching your post closely. I just ordered a new Krieger barrel for my 22-250. My goal is to shoot the 75 grain bullet. Krieger advised a 1in8 twist.

You might even be able to shoot 80g bullets with that twist.

quote:

I was hoping to shoot H414. Do you have any experience with the H414??

No, I don't have any of that. I did, out of curiosity, model some loads with it. It is a bit faster burning than H4350 (which I have been using), but it certainly looks like it might be a decent candidate.

My tendancy is to use the slowest powder I can get up to pressure when I'm trying to push heavy bullets. The slower burning powders seem to hold their tail off pressure a couple of thousand psi higher than the faster powders and thus have a higher average pressure resulting in higher velocity with the heavy-for-caliber bullets. I have some IMR4007SSC on order through my local rifle dealer because that worked well in the Shooting Times Article - I'll try it because it worked for him.

I'm having good results so far with H4350. After 4007, the other powder I'd like to try is VV N550. If I had any I'd have tried it by now. It looks better than 4007 in models, but not quite as good a H4350, so I tried H4350 first.

That said, how it looks in models doesn't count if it doesn't shoot! The analysis is the hypothesis, the range results are the lab report.

quote:

I wanted to see impacts with my new rifle. Is yours ported?? Can you see impacts with your faster loads??

Mine is box stock, no ports, no nothing but mounting a scope and putting together loads. I didn't even change the trigger. The precision target accutrigger is nothing short of phenomenal. I've never shot a rifle with a better trigger.

I can't even come close to seeing impacts shooting off an RCBS RASS. The RASS is my long range GH hunting rest so I take it to the range and do my load development shootng off it.

I haven't tried shooting prone or off a conventional bench rest or bags with the rifle yet. It "might" be possible to see impacts off bags.

quote:

My new Krieger barrel is 28 inches long. They said it would weigh 7# @ 26 inches. So the barrel should weigh slightly over 7#. Tom.

I think it would have to be pretty heavy to have weight make the impacts visible.

Fitch

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I had been contemplating getting a 22 caliber 1-9 twist barreled rifle for some time other than the 2ea. .223s I have. I was even thinking of a new( for what reason?) wildcat. After digesting your post here and playing some mind games I bought the Savage varmint long range today in 22-250 with the 9 twist.

Congratulations! I wish you as much fun with it as I am having. Your biggest risk is splitting a lip grinning at tiny little groups!

quote:

I than thanked my wife for my Christmas gift. Thanks for pushing me over the edge. What a guy! roger

Your welcome!

I'll be very interested to hear what you learn regarding loads for it. I haven't tried mine at more than 100 yards yet, but I will get there yet this fall with a bit of luck.

Fitch

Fella received my check today and said it was $444.00 short. He had miss quoted it twice. Told him to tare up the check. Maybe I'll see what VD gets and get a wildcat like his. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Fella received my check today and said it was $444.00 short. He had miss quoted it twice. Told him to tare up the check. Maybe I'll see what VD gets and get a wildcat like his. roger

Bummer! Mine was $800.00 plus tax with a $150.00 discount for buying $500.00 of other stuff (a Scope for the rifle and an RCBS Digital Powder Dispensor) at Cabela's in Hamburg. PA.

Fitch

I always shoot 5-shot groups when shooting for accuracy with varmint-sized cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by R. Walter:
I always shoot 5-shot groups when shooting for accuracy with varmint-sized cartridges.

So do I. However, for doing an initial screening for a bullet and powder which involves 5 to 7 loads, I prefer to do it with 15 to 21 bullets instead of 25 to 35. Saves wear and tear on the barrel which has a finite life, and components budget which has a finite size. With initial results from 3 shot groups it is easy to see if the powder/bullet combination is worth further effort. In this case it was, so I loaded up 5 five shots groups in 0.2g increments to see how wide the sweet spot is. In this case it is nearly 0.6g wide.

I have two more powders to test for this bullet. IMR4007SSC and VV N550. I don't have any N550 on the shelf so if 4007 is as good as it might be, I may just skip exploring N550.

H4350 works very well for this bullet in this rifle, but if I can find a load with a bit more MV I'd like that.

Fitch

quote:

Originally posted by Fitch:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by R. Walter:
H4350 works very well for this bullet in this rifle, but if I can find a load with a bit more MV I'd like that. Fitch

This may sound like a broken record but DP85 just might be that powder. Powder Valley has it for $69.00 for 8 lbs. and it's burning rate is almost the same as the 4350s, only being a ball powder you can get more of it into the case." 52gr. FBHP berger DP85 41.8 gr 8/30/07 oal=2.390", Litely compressed, 3508 to 3553 fps., 5 shot 1/2" group @50 yds., 3 shot 1/12" group @ 400 yds.

55gr VNM MS DP85 41.8 fc fc " oal=@.461" a little hot, 3552 to 3750 fps., 3 shot 1/2" group @50 yds.roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Fitch:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by R. Walter:
H4350 works very well for this bullet in this rifle, but if I can find a load with a bit more MV I'd like that. Fitch

This may sound like a broken record but DP85 just might be that powder. Powder Valley has it for $69.00 for 8 lbs. and it's burning rate is almost the same as the 4350s, only being a ball powder you can get more of it into the case." 52gr. FBHP berger DP85 41.8 gr 8/30/07 oal=2.390", Litely compressed, 3508 to 3553 fps., 5 shot 1/2" group @50 yds., 3 shot 1/12" group @ 400 yds.

55gr VNM MS DP85 41.8 fc fc " oal=@.461" a little hot, 3552 to 3750 fps., 3 shot 1/2" group @50 yds.roger

Thanks for mentioning it. That looks like an ineresting powder. Apparently it burns a lot like H380. I think I have 55g Nosler and V-MAX under control with H380. I'm looking at 1/2" hundred yard groups, group after group, with 39g of H380 pushing a 55g V-MAX to 3,753 fps. 39.5g groups tighter but the bolt gets hard to open so I backed off.

H380 also has the advantage that it is in the QuickLOAD powder library. H380 and 55g bullets model within 1% for MV which is useful.

The powders I still want to try with the 75g bullets (this topic) are IMR4007SSC and VV N550.

Fitch

H 414 with the 75 and 80 grainers...

I worked those loads with that powder...
stopping at 38 grains for the 75 grain bullets.. .and 37.5 grains for the 80 grain Bullets ( Nosler)...

Both max loads were accurate...

But still higher velocity and accuracy were achieved with 33.5 grains of IMR 4895 and IMR 4064....

I'll have to pick up some of that IMr 4007 SSC and try some of that...

My rifle is a Ruger 77 with a Pac Nor Barrel on it, with a one in 7 twist...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
H 414 with the 75 and 80 grainers...

I worked those loads with that powder...
stopping at 38 grains for the 75 grain bullets.. .and 37.5 grains for the 80 grain Bullets ( Nosler)...

Both max loads were accurate...

But still higher velocity and accuracy were achieved with 33.5 grains of IMR 4895 and IMR 4064....

I'll have to pick up some of that IMr 4007 SSC and try some of that...

My rifle is a Ruger 77 with a Pac Nor Barrel on it, with a one in 7 twist...

I was able to get a bottle of the IMR4007SSC (it reallly is "short" cut). I have loads ready, but probably won't be shooting them any time soon unless the weather warms up. There were two good days but the deer hunters were lined up 2 deep at all the shooting benches getting ready for opening day (A Pennsylvania State Holiday - or it might as well be, everything including school is closed).

I keep looking for VVN550 on the shelf. Maybe at the next gun show. Those are the last powders to try. I'd like to have some barrel life left after finding the loads!

Fitch

Just starting out with the Savage LRPV 9 twist. Excellent accuracy with 55 grain BK's, 36.5 grains of AA2230. I also want to go for the hevier bullet. Have the 75 SirroccoII and Hornady 75 amax and waiting to try IMR4007SSC when it gets here. IRISH

quote:

Originally posted by IRISH:
Just starting out with the Savage LRPV 9 twist. Excellent accuracy with 55 grain BK's, 36.5 grains of AA2230. I also want to go for the hevier bullet. Have the 75 SirroccoII and Hornady 75 amax and waiting to try IMR4007SSC when it gets here. IRISH

Cool! I'll be waiting to hear what you learn.

I have a bottle of IMR4007SSC but right now it's too cold for my old bones to go out and sit at a bench in the wind. The long range club has an open (roof only) firing line and targets to 800 yards. The one with an inside bench and stove (targets are outside) only is good to 100 yards.

Fitch

I used the new IMR 4007 mainly because it listed a load at nearly 4000fps for a 50 grn bullet, i was pretty disappointed with it, I posted about it a few weeks back complaining that using their recommended max charge produced nearly 400 less fps than they claimed in their data. for me its still good ole RL15 and 3 tenths of a grain over max for 3900 fps from a 22" barrel, I am pretty much happy as a lark with the combo and at this point think I am done tinkering with this particular rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I used the new IMR 4007 mainly because it listed a load at nearly 4000fps for a 50 grn bullet, i was pretty disappointed with it, I posted about it a few weeks back complaining that using their recommended max charge produced nearly 400 less fps than they claimed in their data. for me its still good ole RL15 and 3 tenths of a grain over max for 3900 fps from a 22" barrel, I am pretty much happy as a lark with the combo and at this point think I am done tinkering with this particular rifle.

What was the length of their test barrel?

Fitch

I dunno I got it off the IMR website it must have been pretty darn long

Fitch, I screwed up. That was H4895, NOT AA2230. Sorry!!
I'm stuck in the weather dilemma also. Not sposed to get above freezing here in northern WI for a week at least. IRISH

quote:

Originally posted by IRISH:
Fitch, I screwed up. That was H4895, NOT AA2230. Sorry!!

No problem, and thanks for the correction notice.

quote:

I'm stuck in the weather dilemma also. Not sposed to get above freezing here in northern WI for a week at least. IRISH

Hold that thought! <G> I keep looking at the forecast, not seeing any decent range weather here either.

Deer season in full swing here. Good time for a varmint hunter to stay out of the woods - and away from the range.

More when I get more data.

Fitch

I have a Cooper Classic with after market BBL chambered in 22-250AI. My BBL is a Mike Rock 8" twist SS 5R 26" sporter BBL. I've been messing around with 75 gr A-max bullets.My load is 38.5 grs of H4350 behind 75 gr A-max jammed into rifling for a average MV of 3,450.Upon reading another shooter is getting that velocity with a standard 22-250 encourages me to push the envelope a bit more. Lately I ordered some VLD bullets from JLK bullet makers. I've been shooting a 65 gr VLD type bullet in front of41.4 grs of H4350 for a impressive MV of 3,700. That bullet has a BC of .395.It gives me half inch groups at 2500 Yards.LOL just kidding 1/2MOA at 100.

At 38.1 I notice the bolt starting to get sticky, at 38.5 it was real sticky and burnishing the base of the brass, so I backed off after one round. My loads were .020" off the lands. They apparently weren't sticky in yours which just goes to show guns are different! What works in one may not work in another.

Fitch

Fitch my chamber has been opened up for the Ackley Improved 22-250.Do you have the latest Sierra manual? They have a great right up about this chambering. Might want to consider a trip to you local gunsmith to run a reamer in your chamber.I can get 4,000 FPS with 55 gr bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by IronWorker378:
Fitch my chamber has been opened up for the Ackley Improved 22-250.Do you have the latest Sierra manual? They have a great right up about this chambering. Might want to consider a trip to you local gunsmith to run a reamer in your chamber.I can get 4,000 FPS with 55 gr bullets.

That write up is indeed tantelizing. The case might also increase throat life since it will direct less gas at the throat itself.

Thanks for the input. I'll roll that idea round in my head for a while.

Fitch

Actually I've heard reports that its a BBL burner. But I'm having fun now and I don't shoot it like a AR-15.I have a 6x284 that I know the throat is degrading and it still shoots under 1/2MOA. My self that's my standard 1/2" groups are good enough for my style of shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by IronWorker378:
Actually I've heard reports that its a BBL burner.

That wouldn't surprise me. Anytime bullets are hitting 4,000 fps the throat is getting whacked with a pretty hot gas shot from the powder used. The sudden really hot gas presence causes the metal on the surface of the throat and first inch or two of barrel to heat up several hundred to a thousand degrees hotter than the metal just a couple thousandths of an inch below it. That temperature differential causes trememdous stresses between the layers of metal (thermal shock) which can cause rather severe deterioration of the area. It can get all microchecked and wear pretty fast.

I avoid bullets lighter than 70g in my .243 for the same reason. It's why I don't shoot 36g Varmint Grenades out of the LRPV other than one time as an experiment. Faster bullets need faster and hotter powders to realize their potential, and that is hard on barrels.

That said, it was a real rush to see the chrono reading 4,400+ FPS after the first Varmint Grenade headed down range. Lots of fun. It was fast and it shot inside a nickle at 160 yards.

Fitch

I never shot a round that fast before. Have you ever shot a varmint with one of those " Varmint Grenade" bullets? And that was out of your 9" rifle? I've shot 52 gr A-maxs out of mine target at 100 yards look like a load of Buck shot. MV was around 4,200. Then tried Speer 52 gr HP and they never made it to the target! Balistics and effect on varmints isn't so black& white.Not always did varmints blow up( Red Mist) At least one time out of 6x284 shot a couple of squirrels with Sierra 70 gr Blitzking with a MV of 3,900 ( 50 yards) all that happen is it blew them in half.I wanted to see the red mist fly.

quote:

Originally posted by IronWorker378:
I never shot a round that fast before. Have you ever shot a varmint with one of those " Varmint Grenade" bullets? And that was out of your 9" rifle?

That was out of the 9" twist LRPV.

I've not fired a Varmint Grenade at a GH yet. That will happen next spring.

I called Barnes to get loading data and specifically asked if it would be OK in a 9" twist barrel. The tech said they had tested to 5,400 fps with no problems. Those rounds made nice tiny holes right next to each other in the paper at 160 yards. I don't see a problem with the bullet's performance in my rifle. Can't say how it will do on varmints yet though.

I'm planning to get some for my .243 just to see what they do.

quote:

I've shot 52 gr A-maxs out of mine target at 100 yards look like a load of Buck shot. MV was around 4,200. Then tried Speer 52 gr HP and they never made it to the target!

I've not been able to get 50 to 55 grain bullets moving at more than around 3,900 fps, but none of them have come apart. 8" twist may be just enough faster to cause problems at the higher velocities with light bullets.

quote:

Balistics and effect on varmints isn't so black& white. Not always did varmints blow up( Red Mist) At least one time out of 6x284 shot a couple of squirrels with Sierra 70 gr Blitzking with a MV of 3,900 ( 50 yards) all that happen is it blew them in half.I wanted to see the red mist fly.

I just want the little buggers dead with a clean kill. I'm just getting started with varming hunting. So far I've shot them with the .17HMR. But I'm sure ready for next spring.

I have the Hornet, .223, and the .22-250 LRPV all with good loads. I can hardly wait.

Fitch