I ask why? Why do we need a new caliber or two ever year from the gun manufactures? 223WSSM, we have it, it's a 22-250 or 220 swift. It just a sales promotion, I think we have a caliber to do any job you need done, 22 short to 50 cal sniper rifle. Just a personal observation.

I hav been saying that for years,but noone much listens to me! derf

It's gotta be to increase sales! We're apparently not buying enough new guns every year to suite the company. Why else would they get those whore writers to expound on the virtues of each new and improved wizbang gun or caliber they can dream up.

Just my nickle
doc-and

You ever think that it helps keep these gunmakers in business! The new calipers stimulate interest and people buy more guns. And it is working if you look at the sales numbers of the new calipers. I personally still have my first 30/06 and most recently a 300RUM and a 270WSM. When I purchased my 300 RUM from HS Precision they told me they where building that gun 10 times for every other caliper. So it is just basic marketing to help sales! And the best part of it is you do not have to buy one if you do not want.

[ 10-10-2003, 00:00: Message edited by: tradewinds ]

It's strictly sales and marketing. Most people have to have the latest and greatest, so they dream up new "things" to do the "same old think" just under another name. Why do you think the venerable old .30-06 and some of the other standard benchmark calibers aren't capable of cleanly killing an elk any more (at lest according to some of the typewriter jockys).
Twice in the last year one writer pronounced the .222 Rem. dead and buried and suggested that anyone that disagreed "should seek counseling". Anyone out there ready to through yours in the trash just because this "expert" said it was dead.(I'll keep mine)
The press pushes calibers in shooting literature the way the mainstream media pushes political canidates........what ever they like must be the best,,,,,right?

Just the way I see it,,,,,,,,

[ 10-13-2003, 18:40: Message edited by: Ma Bell ]

Gotta agree with Tradewinds. Do you feel the same way about every other product on the market today? Vehicles, tractors, hunting equipment, fishing equipment, they all do the same thing. Isn't it nice to have some variety and change? I sure like it.

I'd concur that we have an existing cartridge already to fill any "need" BUT "need" is a word we as gunnies should avoid! Especially around wives!

Yeah, I actually need only about four different cartidges but Jeff Cooper called it correctly when he said that the purpose of gun companies is to SELL guns! It keeps them afloat, all this new-fanglery.

I for one wish they'd spend half the resources on new stuff and the other half making the "old" stuff the way they used to! Correctly!

Redial

How many times would you buy a new 1977 pickup????

That depends HY,do you mean Chevy,Ford or Dodge?? derf

I agree that the gun makers need to sell guns to stay in business. But I would rather see quality rather than new calibers. There are not many gun makers today that "Quality is Job One". As for trucks and calibers. 95 Toyota Tacoma works good, so does the 223, 22-250, 6mm, and 308.

I've been thinking about this,,,, if the gun manufactures are coming out with all these new calibers to boost sales, then I think we need to do our part.
Everyone needs to go buy a new rifle. Anyone agains that.

Just the way I see it,,,,,,,

Trapdoor nailed it, my thoughts exactly. By the way who is twisting your arm to buy all the new stuff?

Winchester promised bench rest accuracy and a shorter, lighter rifle in it's advertising for the WSSM's. These are actual benefits and if they come true will be real improvements.

Come on guys -lets not be toooo negative - at least they are moving in the right direction. To my limited knowledge -'cos I haven't had my hands on one yet - the WSSM 22 rifles have a 10 twist barrel. This is surely a move in the right direction and away from he usual 14 and 12 twist 22's on the market. I believe that Savage are the only factory that offer.223 in a 9 twist - all the rest are 12, limiting its use to smaller and less ballistically efficient projectiles.
( Unfortunately Savage are not well represented in this part of the world) The military and the target guys have known this for years! Ken Waters did a great article in Handloader some while ago advocating that the 22-250 should have a 10 twist. This had meant that those of us wanting accurate and efficient varmint guns for extreme ranges have had to custom build, and whilst this is good fun in itself, has added costs and time importing parts from the US. On the other side, Im not sure of the place for the 6mm, although had it been available earlier, I may not have built a 243AI! and it certainly should outperform the 6mm/284 which is still kinda popular round here. One of our fellow shooters has decided to build a 6,5mm WSSM and I have already converted a .308 CZ Mauser to 30 WSM for hunting - its superb on deer with 165g Noslers. PS> Previously the rifle waa chambered for a similar wildcat 6 years ago, necking the 350 rem mag to 30 cal, and running at high pressures. Performance isnt that different - but the rifle is more saleable when I get bored with it!!

I fear a train wreck with these short magnums. Bet they won't feed well. Also from what I have read the accuracy is not up to snuff. Getting no better than 1-1/2" moa on the prototypes.

Ssupply and demand.
Remington, Winchester, et al, put out a new cartridge (no new "calibers" yet, folks) and gun sales increase. Can't blame them one bit. Now if you want them to increase quality, it ain't gonna happen, because the market (you and me) don't respond to that as well. We may sure appreciate a nice rifle, but if Winchester started charging $200 more for the M70, with obvious improvements, you really think they'd sell any where near as many new rifles as they have with the WSM?
People want to spend right wroudn $500 for a hunting rifle. So, we get about $500 worth of quality.

Shakespeare said it first when he asked, "What's in a name?"

The answer in this case is MONEY. As Bwana suggests, they should try to improve quality of their guns instead of repackaging BS. But that will never happen because THAT would cost them time, money and effort.

I literally cried the day I sold my 1974 Ford F-250! I remember the day well! That old reliable rig took me in and out of some real scarey terrain and situations! Oh yeah - I would buy about three more of them if available today! I had that truck for 22 years and babied it as best I could! The year I sold it I had the rear end inspected and the mechanic took his dial claipers and measured the teeth of the gears. His exclamation of "wow" prompted me to ask "was something wrong"? No he stated it was just that after 160,000 tough miles the gears were like new showing NO wear! He double checked his reference book and remeasured. Stating "wow" again!
I am sure my tears would have turned to a full fledged breakdown if I had not been selling that old faithful truck to anyone but my first born son!
Its replacement a Dodge diesel 3/4 ton extended cab 4X4 gets a lot better mileage looks better smells better and costs 6 times as much just is not the same as my old ride! Kind of like comparing my old 30/06 with a new 300 Remington Ultra-Magnum!
Yeah I would buy 3 or 4 of those old Fords tomorrow if possible!
30 years later that old Ford is still truckin along much to my delight!
Aaaahhh the memories!
Now to new cartridges! There are tons of guys just spiralling around their rooms waiting for the new Magnums and SSM's and USM's and RUMM"S various other revved up medium Magnums to hit town! Lazzeroni, Dakotas, Baerhs, Weatherbys etc etc etc! I say hooray! And yes it is probably a marketing ploy and eventually these Rifles need to be fed ammo and that ammo is pricey from what I have seen! I have also seen some of the new cartridge/Rifles perform in the field and at the range! They perform!
And again I say overall that is a good thing!
Lots of "recent" cartridges brought out in Rifles I have energetically sought out and bought like the 221 Remington Fireball, 22 PPC, 22 BR, 6mm BR, 6mm PPC, 260 Remington, 7mm/08 and so many others! Also I have in the last year bought two Rifles in 17 Remington! The 17 Remington has been around a long time of course but I consider it still to be new. And all these calibers are fine ones in my mind! And in my Rifles they have all shot exceptionally well! I am a little recoil aware and my largest currently online "Big Game Rifle" is a 7mm Remington Magnum. It does everything I ask of it on Bear and Elk and such! I usually Hunt Deer with my 280 Remington pre-64 Model 70.
Again after looking at the prices of these new caliber cartridges (like Weatherby's 338/378 Weatherby at $50.00 for 20!) I would not even consider buying one without the ability to handload them - and even that is pricey!
Old Ford trucks - now that is a nice thought for the day!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I think the key word is "quality." Make a firearm that's decidedly better, and I'll rush right out and buy it. Don't offer me a rifle with a 7lb. trigger pull, a stock that rubs, or other aggravating problem and expect it to be well received. It's not going to happen. Do you really believe there's a world wood shortage or are synthetics just another way for manufacturers to cut corners and costs? We're hearing some real horror stories today about lack of quality. Return the quality, and I'll start buying guns again. Our auto manufactuters started cutting too many corners, produced junk and lost most of the auto market to the foreign companies. Have you noticed the popularity of Sako, CZ, Tikka, Howa? It should tell you something. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Ok you stubborn, narrow minded wind bags, what the hell is wrong with trying to stay in business? If the major rifle makers followed your program, we would have 2, maybe 3 calibers in America. If that happened, European gunmakers would have realised the gap and smoked domestic producers just like the Japanese car makers did. I'm in sales and lesson one is: listen to your market. If you try to dictate to the marketplace, you die. Pull the corn cobs out of your collective asses and get some flexibility !

The windbags like Ray Atkinson, Allen Day, Kurt Chanti, and all the others who chimed in here on this topic would have destroyed the American gun industry by making the rifles THEY wanted instead of what their customers wanted.

The arrogance of it all is amazing.

I'm fortunate enough to afford the type of guns those men admire. Arrogance is telling a man that makes 18 or 20 thousand a year that his Remington 710 is a POS.

Because the gun companies are a business. They have to offer new stuff, even if its a smoke and mirrors verision of what was offered 45 years ago. (It's called marketing) They have to cater to the caliber queers or they would have no new business! Hang around the gun shops and watch the guys come in salivating for the various new caliber offerings; 7mmSTW, 30-378, 338-378, the WSM, the RUSM, the Remington Long mags, WSM in different calibers, etc

And there will be something latest-greatest in about a year or two

[ 10-24-2003, 10:10: Message edited by: Matt Norman ]

Bring on all those new cartridges you care to American rifle makers, all the better for us the buying public. Let all those gun writers burn up their key boards writng about all those newly reinvented cartridges. As long as it keeps our economy thriving, it is not bad for us the consumer. Free enterprise is the building blocks of a free Republic, since we are now socialist by definition. If your not for free enterprise you should relocate to a country that squashes your full freedom rights. There are plenty of countries like Irag that would welcome you with open arms then chop off your head.

I'm certainly not against change, nor am I living in the past. I own synthetic-stocked rifles with variable scopes, so hardly consider myself a Luddite.

I would like to see the quality improved. And it could be done relatively economically. Evidently many others feel the same, judging by the popularity of semi-custom and custom rifle makers.

Different guns and calibers are like Women, They are all a little different and more or less attractive in their own way. Some are irrestible and some are not, its just personel prefference, and everyone has different taste. Personally I admire lots of guns and lots of women, but thats just me.

Triggertate, very good point. I saw my first 710 this past summer and the fellow that showed it to me was as proud as punch. I would imagine he had skipped quite a few lunches to get the money together.

GENTLEMAN,,haveing lived and traveled in the u.s. and abroad,,this is my take on this topic.
1)the calibres are of no consequense,,if they fill a DEMAND,they will sell,,NEED aside.
2)cartridge case shape,,it either pleases the eye
or it does not,,if not,no amount of "good press" will save it,,but really,,do you care what shape bottle your Bolle' is in?
3)I say this as an american.,,Until americans stop DEMANDING $50.00 OF GOODS FOR $5.00,,and learn to VALUE VALUE in goods and services,they will never KNOW SATISFACTION.We want the wally world train load prices and then cry when the corner gun shop/'smith closes up,,if you are worth your hire ,,then the guy in the corner store is too,,we have variety and choice unknow and unbelievable to others in even well developed countrys.I personally know at least 100 people in the u.s. that have 25 or more guns,,some,,many,many more,,and all just because we want them,,but in all my travels abroad,,I have never met anyone who had more than 1/2 dozen,,,but tey have on AVERAGE,,much better/nicer,,guns for the same economic class as thier american counterparts,,1 because they are restricted to some degree on #'s and on useability,,,and or other restrictions either economic or political,,,they save longer,,make better/more informed choices and dont try to get high value for low money,,and may have to live with the choices for a long while,,,for life in some cases.We americans have a great deal of choice and that is good,,it is good for everyone but it is a two way street,,yes,,I would rather get low prices and I can,,but I choose to give my trade to the little shop where the proprieter(?) remembers my name and what I like/need from one visit to the next,,in exchange for paying a higher price for things I get service,,and in some cases EXTRA service for my patronage,,,hell,,,when I DO go to waldo world (shudder ),,I never see the same person twice,,,,EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!no,,I am not rich,,or even well off,,but I have learned value,,and that keeping the little hometown shops,,of all kinds,,going,, is more important to me than saving a few $$$,,I am really the guy that might buy a REm. 710 for $400.00 if I didn't build from old Mausers,,part by part as I can afford it,,realizing that if I wait and save a little longer for that BETTER barrel,,I will be more satisfied than I would be with a cheaper GOOD ENOUGH barrel sooner than later.And in the end ,,isn't being satisfied what we all are really hopeing for??

USA Quality Firearms--Cooper,Dakota,Kimber and Lazzeroni are some fine arms that you can have in old ,new and wild cat cases. Living in the USA ,how can we be so lucky ?