What are peoples views on the definition of an accurate rifle? Ie, what size groups can you shoot and still call the gun "accurate"?

For me, if you can put 5 shots into a 1 inch square at 100 meters (110 yards?) that seems a reasonable benchmark...not for true varminting perhaps, but as a general guide for guns of various calibres, any takers??

Kind regards

Benno

The one inch rifle years ago was the bench mark it. Then if a rifle put them into a inch you had great shooter.

Now days the bar has been raised one inch rifles are fairly common. You hear lots of talk about .5 inch rifles.

For me varmits rifles need to do under .750 and they are accurate.

Big game rifles I very happy with ones that well do a inch. In real life a 2 inch rifle well do in all the big game one wants out to 300 yards. Any rifle that does under 4 inchs will do out to 200 yards

A very accurate rifle to me is one that does under .5.

I have a couple that well one gets very spoiled by them. One gets to thinking they all should be. But in real life they do not have to be to get the job done.

I remember one day at the range I just got done shooting some very small groups with a 223. Then I went to my heavey barrel 30-06 I looked at the group through the spoting scope and said shit they are all over the place. Whats wrong wtih the rifle. Then I went up to the target saw that the 223s groups were around .375. The 06 groups were .750 .

Both well with in my needs. I guess I have settled on a accurate rifle is one that hits what Iam shooting at where I am aim at.

The accurate varmint rifle is the one that will shoot Minute of varmint until the barrel gets too hot.We are not talking just a 3 ,5,or 10 shot group under an inch either. roger

For prairie dogs
assuming I make all the correct wind and distance calculations an accurate rifle should hit them at 500 yds. with regularity.

If I were shooting animals larger than my truck at ranges less than 50 yds.....Sheer knockdown power trumps MOA precision by a wide margin. I would settle for 6 MOA at that range.

My generally accept norm is that I have at least idea of how accurate I think a certain caliber should be. I will work beyond that point just to find out.

Benno: This is an excellent question and topic!
I look forward to others responses.
Seeings you asked this question on the Varmint Hunting forum I will answer it in that vein!
By that I mean I will relay to you my accuracy standards for my arsenal of Varmint Rifles. And by Varmint Rifles I mean - Varmint calibered, Varmint scoped, Varmint triggered, Varmint style Rifles shooting Varmint type bullets!
Now that I am done with my definitions I hope they are along the lines of your posted inquiry.
I have several Varmint Rifles (see above definitions!) that are fully capable and have shot groups at and just under .250" (five shots at 100 yards!). Virtually EVERY one of my Varmint Rifles shoots groups under .750"!
MOST shoot WAY under that!
I am not real happy with a Varmint Rifle/scope/gear combo unless it shoots groups at or under .500"!
Lets take that a step farther and analyze a Varminter that then will put all its shots within .250" of where I am aiming at 100 yards!
Or, thusly within .500" at 200 yards! Using this criterion then out at the furthest ranges I shoot Varmints at (500 yards!) I can expect the Varmint Rifle I am happy with to place its shot within 1.250" of my intended aimpoint (or 2.500" groups) out there at 500 yards!
If I judge the wind right and hold for proper elevation out there at 500 yards then my "happy with Varmint Rifle" will place its shots within 1.250" of my aimpoint - in other words dead Varmint!
So then the specific answer to your question Varminting wise is - I am happy when I tune my Varmint Rifles to the point where they will shoot my chosen Varmint load into 5 shot groups at 100 yards measuring .500" or less!
My worst shooting Varmint Rifle, that I have on hand right now is (according to my shooting/loading log book) is a beautiful looking Ruger #1-B in caliber 22 Hornet! I worked and worked to get this Rifle to shoot .750" groups! It has a Leupold 6x18 variable scope on it and like I said it has beautiful wood or it would have been "down the road" three years ago!
I do not shoot this Rifle at Varmints much past 225 yards so the relatively "poor" accuracy it is capable of does not hamper me much in killing Varmints with it.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy,

Those are great groups. What calibre are your varmint rifles?

Cheers,

Benno

Benno: My present list of Varmint Rifles includes Rifles in the following calibers:
1 in 17 MachIV
2 in 17 Remington
3 in 204 Ruger
2 in 22 Hornet
2 in 218 Bee
2 in 221 Remington Fireball
5 in 222 Remington
5 in 223 Remington
1 in 222 Remington Magnum
1 in 224 Weatherby Magnum
2 in 22 Remington Bench Rest
5 in 22-250 Remington
4 in 220 Swift
1 in 6x47
1 in 6mm PPC
1 in 6mm Remington Bench Rest
5 in 243 Winchester
2 in 6mm Remington
1 in 6mm Ackley Improved
1 in 240 Weatherby
1 in 25/06 Remington
1 in 270 Winchester (Remington 700 Sendero)
I hope to add another 221 Remington Fireball (factory stock Remington 40XB-KS) to this list in early December!
And I have a Remington XP-100 pistol that I am going to have smithed into a custom Varmint Rifle probably in either 204 Ruger, 222 Remington Magnum or 223 Remington Ackley Improved soon.
Varmint Rifles are my one "vice" in life - and obviously I have gone overboard on some calibers but they all shoot "well" or I send them packing!
Most of my present group of Varminters are Remingtons with several Winchesters and Rugers thrown in along with a couple of Sakos and several customs (note - no savages!).
Don't mention this list to my wife by the way, if you should happen to run across her down there in Canberra!
Long live Varmint Rifles!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: My huge two vloume set of American Collegiate Dictionaries lists caliber as being spelled "CALIBER" with the alternate spelling (like you spelled it!) of "CALIBRE" - then in parenthesis it says "British". Is "CALIBRE" the preffered spelling down your way also?

I promise not to tell!!! I am only at the beginning of my varminting days and have only a heavy barrelled .223. I am thinking of adding a .204, 22.250 and .243 to the list though (and maybe a .308 for bigger stuff), but don't tell my wife if you come across her in Montana!

'Calibre' is the preferred spelling down here, as is 'metre' and 'colour'. Hanging on to our colonial history methinks!

Benno: If I may so bold as to recommend one of the three other cartridges you are considering?
I have been SO impressed with the 204 Ruger for my Varminting uses in the last year and a half!
I highly recommend that you try one!
Accuracy has about been universal with all my mates that shoot them and recoil is nearly non-existent! It uses small doses of powder and hopefully barrel life will be satisfactorily long!
But the amazingly flat trajectory and wonderful wind bucking ability (out to 450 yards or a little further!) is what really makes this cartridge shine!
The only thing you will need to transition to the 20 caliber is a new cleaning rod and brushes and jags!
Run a ballistic check on the 32 grain 20 caliber bullet doing about 4,200 F.P.S.! Then you will see what I mean!
I love all my 22-250's and 243's but this new 204 Ruger cartridge is a real big performer in a real small package!
Good luck on your collection growing rapidly!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Less than .5 for varmints and less than .75 for every thing else. If I can't make it shoot within these 3 shot group sizes I trade/sell it and try with another caliber.

I had a 22-250 that wouldn't shoot consistantly no matter what I did. It was either sell it or wrap it arround a tree, the wife thought selling it was a better choice. I still am not sure the tree seemed like a good idea at the time.

VG is duh "Man".. .....if you like wood and accuracy try a cooper varmint with the wood upgrade. How about 10 shots you can cover with a dime at 200? Dayam I love this thing.

Everyone I have heard speak of Cooper says same thing. I am going to have to look at these things.

VarmintGuy,

Thanks for the recommendation. I have been very impressed with all I've heard about the .204. Everything I've read about the cartridge suggests that it is incredibly accurate and easy to shhot and easy on the ears compared with some of the larger capacity cartirdges - although all centrefires seem loud to me!

After reading the everyone's responses above, I think I am going to have to get myself a good benchrest, drink a little less coffee and start tinkering with some loads for the .223 and start saving for a .204!

I traded straight across for a Rem XR-100 I have been looking at the Cooper rifles also.
If they are as great as others say I might go for one in a .204 or .222

How accurate should a rifle be ? I have 33 rifles all of which will group five shots at 100 Yds under two inches,some will do around one inch , a few under one half inch. For elk I used a rifle that groups 1 1/2 in, deer and pronghorn 1 inch ,yots 3/4 in,prairie dogs 1/2 in . None will win a bench rest shoot ,so I do not have a accurate rifle. But I enjoy reloading and shooting all of them and that whats counts.

Lofter: What caliber is your Cooper?
Yes, I admire them constantly - beings as I am here in Montana and a fair number of the shops have them in stock most all the time!
I am thrilled you are so happy with your Cooper!
Inside my "pea sized brain" is this haunting, baseless, irresponsible idea that the "Coopers" actions are so small, delicate, dainty and SMALL - that they simply CAN'T be as accurate as everyone says they are!
Yeah - I admit I am sometimes a worry without reason type and obviously my concerns about the "dainty" Cooper actions are baseless and should not keep me from proudly owning one!
I have made offers on a couple of Coopers in my tradings and wheelings and dealings with Gunshops and at Gunshows!
Someday I will own one I am sure!
I have owned, and now own, a number of Kimbers and have been happy with most all of them accuracy wise!
Long live Cooper!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Perhaps it is just me, but I suspect that most "one inch" rifles don't fit the definition that most people have in their head. For me, that's the vast majority of shots (say 90%) going into a pre-defined one-inch circle at 100 yards, regardless of temperature, and so forth. Pretty much all my guns will put five shots into an inch, or an inch and a half-- but frequently that "circle" wanders and is not where it was at the last range session. I call them three inch guns-- I know for a fact that every single shot will be somewhere in a 3" circle.

I've not played with BR guns, but I have fired a few sniper-type setups that would meet my personal "one inch" criteria. An awesome thing to behold-- but it's not the case with my hunting rifles.

Thoughts?

I shoot tons of prairie dogs and very few paper targets. Basically the targets prepare me and the gun to shoot at whatever range I think a hit can be made with a very high percentage of kills. Nearest I can remember my .204 ....with handloaded ammo will shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups will little trouble....22-250 about the same maybe slightly larger...my 6mm even better. If they didn't ....shootin pds will lose much of its "fun factor".

This is merely my own opinion, but if I'm going to own a particular rifle it damn well better shoot decently. I figure .5" (5 shots.100yds.) for my varmint rifles through the various 6mm calibers. My deer rifles should group no worse than .75". In no case will I tolerate anything grouping above 1". Today you have to be super careful. Much junk is coming from our manufacturers as they are obsessed with the bottom line, and quality is going to hell in a handbasket. I'm willing to do my part with glass bedding, barrel floating, trigger adjustments and top of the line reloading equipment. The manufacturer must do his part also or I'm switching brands in a heartbeat. Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

VG? It's a .204 did you really need to ask?

Lofter: I am glad you have the Cooper in such a "dandy" of a caliber!
Wishing you continued happiness with it!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Long live Cooper!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I count you have 51 varmint rifles, VarmintGuy. When do you ever find time to shoot them? I have a few guns and most of the time, they just set. I have handguns I haven't shot in months and months. Still, I would never think of selling any of them. I had a nice Colt AR-15 SP-1, a primo Ruger 10/22 and one of the very first Thompson semi-auto carbines back in 1983. The ones they make now are pale imitations of the first ones. I sold them all in the summer of 1985 and bought professional-quality photo equipment, which mildewed in the ultra-humid northern Virginia summer of 1986. I have since learned my lesson to never sell a gun, especially after that idiotic Clinton gun ban went into effect.

What's an accurate rifle? It depends on how small you want your group and how much you are willing to pay your gunsmith to make your rifle achieve that definition. I think three shots inside a one-inch circle fired from a .30-caliber at 100 yards is pretty accurate. I also think getting three shots into a 2-inch circle at 300 yards is damned accurate, too. That's .67 MOA, which is more than twice as accurate as .500 at 100. I should be so lucky to shoot so well.

My little .223 T/C Encore can pop the head off a squippel at 200 yards easily if I hold and execute the trigger release well. I've nailed jackrabbits at near 300 with it, too. It has a 6-24X scope on it-- that helps.

Rootbeer: You are right in this regard it is VERY difficult to shoot more than ONE Varmint Rifle at a time!
I institute a rotation program for who (which Rifle) gets to go along on my major Varmint Safari's. None of my Rifles get ignored for very long!
But this, Rootbeer, do not overlook the other aspects of owning Rifles that are not shot every day - so to speak!
There are other values to Rifles, like pride of ownership, curiosity, investment (appreciation in value!), searching for accuracy and just plain FUN!
I am a Varmint Rifle PIKER compared to several of my friends! I have one friend in the Seattle area that I often refer to - he owns (last count!) 25 Varminters in caliber 22-250 alone! I am guessing he has at least 120 Varmint Rifles!
Owning, shooting, making accurate and Hunting with Varmint Rifles is a great hobby! Its fun to search out and find good deals on Rifles as it is to shoot, various Rifles let alone to Hunt with them and to develop accurate loads for them!
When I was a young man in my very early twenties (1967?) I bought my second or third "pure" Varmint Rifle. It was a beautifully stocked then newish Ruger #1-B in caliber 6mm Remington. This Rifle had serial number 1,300!
I would give my eye teeth to have that one back!
It shot well and instead of my finding a good load for it and being satisfied with that load - I kept trying new bullets and new powders in my "fun search" for MORE varieties of accuracy with it. I did lay low many Rock Chucks and a few Coyotes with that beautiful Rifle. In a moment of financial need (crisis!) I sold it. I have been searching for that Rifle for about 30 years now!
I seldom, if ever, sell accurate and/or beautiful Rifles ANYMORE!
When I buy a Varmint Rifle anymore I already have in mind a bullet to use and a Varmint in mind to use it on. Once I get pleasing accuracy with that bullet in that Varminter its off to the gun vaults for SKO (safe keeping only) until its time to go on Safari!
Speaking of Safari I have been having this "debate" with myself for the last two decades or so. I want to go to Africa and shoot Varmints (Baboons, Hyenas, Meir Cats, Vultures, Wart Hogs and etc) but I am hesitant to divert the monies needed for that venture as it would infringe on my ability to buy, set up and make accurate - MORE RIFLES!
I have been invited by three different Americans to go along with them to Africa and partake of the fine Varmint Hunting they have experienced there - BUT again that would divert monies and so far the "more Varmint Rifles" mentality has won out over the "African Varmint Safari"!
I often refer to the first REAL "Varmint Rifle" I bought back in 1966 or so. I paid $175.00 for it and I recently turned down a $1,500.00 cash offer for it! Now mind you when I do sell that Rifle the $1,600.00 of profit I will realize from its sale WILL go UNREPORTED to any Government Agency - if you know what I mean? Pure profit, pride of ownership and my idea of fun - owning that Rifle!
The more the merrier I say!
Long live Varmint Rifles!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Now, that's a thoughtful reply, VarmintGuy. Thanks; I enjoyed reading it. About deciding whether or not to go to Africa-- I'd go so I would always have the memories and the experiences of having gone there and having shot the shit out of some really big "varmints." To me, a squippel or a grounghog is a varmint. A warthog or any of those other species you mentioned is something you better shoot right the first time or he might get mad and tear your ass up!

Simple
five five shot groups that average .3" at 100yds.
If it won't do this it goes back to the Gunsmith or to the gun show.
Dr B

hey V.G. - run a K hornet reamer into that #1 and I'll bet it'll shoot

For me it is a rifle that will shoot under .5" at a 100 yards.

For my two varmit rifles (a RRA VR15 and a Savage 12FV) that is pretty easy. They are capable of better than that, but unfortunatly I am still not quite that good!

An accurate rifle is one that is capable of hitting the target you are aiming for, human error aside.

That could mean hitting a varmint 2" wide at 1000 yards or a mooses' shoulder trotting past at 50 yards.

One that shoots where I am pointing and hope to hit! Don't get me wrong I love sub 1/2" hunting rifles, but a miss with a 1/2" rifle is the same as a miss with a 2" rifle with the exception that with a 2" rifle a person can say "well I really didn't expect to hit that deer at 400 yards cause this thing will only shoot 8" groups from the bench and I am wiggling all over out here in the wind, with no rest, and the sun was in my eyes and I only shot 3 rounds prior to the season and that buck was to small anyway"!

Duane, The last statement in your reply, "that buck was too small anyway"(Little dead bucks WILL NEVER grow up to be BIG LIVE bucks!!!) isn't the retort you're likely to hear from the guy that missed the "little buck" at 400 yards with his 270,30-06, 30-30, 243, ride behind the seat of the pickup all year, never cleaned, never taken care of rifle!!!! He's the one who'll say, "Damn that rifle!! It shot good last year!! I'm going to trade it off and get me a new fangled WSM!!! I hear they are the greatest thing since sliced bread!!!"
My hunting rifles be they the ADL's, the BDL's, The Senderos, the VS's even the darned new fangled Stevens 200 in 25-06 better shoot MOA at the distances I shoot them at!!! That's 2" at 200, 3" at 300, 4" at 400 and 5" at 500!! Am I happy with 2" at 200??? Not really!! I like .7-.8 or so there! Fact is I've owned rifles(varmint) that weren't 1/4MOA rifles at 100 yards!!! BUT they were still at 1/2MOA at 500 yards!!! Each and every one of them is a different beast!!! And each has it's idiosychrycies and the fun part is deciphering them one at a time!! GHD

GHD - Yes I forgot about the WSM.

I guess I'm a lightweight here regarding shooting, but I'll weigh in anyways... I only have two centerfire rifles; one is a H&R Ultra in .223, the other is a 700 BDL in .30-06. The '06 is about 30 years old (used to be my fathers) with maybe 300 rounds through it; most of them mine. The trigger is light & crisp, but the rifle needs a bedding job, a new mount (the tip-off mount is interesting, but I don't think it helps accuracy AT ALL), and a scope that isn't blurry. Like I said, it's 30 years old. But I did get one dime-sized group from it.

The .223 regularly shoots .5-.7" at 100 and 1.25-1.5" at 200 when I'm doing my job. It still has an 8# trigger, so that needs worked on or replaced, and the 3-9x Mil-dot scope is great, but I'd like more power but still prefer the Mil-dot reticle.

To address the original question, accurate to me means two things: Shooting off a bench at paper, it means getting .5MOA groups and putting them WHERE I want them. A .5" group in my .223 isn't worth diddly if it's 3" high and 5" to the left with no wind. That would be a clean miss at most varmints not matter how many shots I take. That's the other kind of accuracy I want, whether it's popping a squirrel's head or punching out the numbers on a paper target or using my 10/22 to shoot empty shell casings at 40 yards.

All my rifles are "hunting" accurate, meaning I can hit any animal I'm shooting at within my abilities, which at present is under 300 yards. Seeing as how I've done little work to improve the two I have, the fun is making them that way, and my own abilities as well.

And thanks to everyone for all your contributions; there's a tremendous amount here that can help a near-beginner like myself!

I think EXPRESS pretty much nailed it down for me. Depends on what you're using it for...and how far. It's why I don't shoot long with a Model 94, nor short with a #1.