Post deleted by sidewinder

Ruck,

Your holding your run out numbers plenty tight for any of the shooting you discribed as far as yardage.

If you are shooting a factory rifle, anything under 0.003" bullet run out will shoot pretty good.

Of course we all strive to load perfect ammo for all of our shooting but to be honest, anything with a bullet run out of 0.002" or less will easily shoot to the potential of any factory rifle.

Only in a custom built rifle will you be able to see any increase in accuracy comparing a 0.002 to a 0.001" run out.

The variables in a factory rifle will make more of a difference to your groups then even a round with a 0.003" run out.

In extreme range shooting these numbers get much more critical especially in the custom rifles I build for my customers.

As a rule I tell them that for 1000 yard shooting and beyond, 0.001" is about the limit I would use for match grade accuracy.

Generally, if a 0.001" run out load will group to 1 moa at 1000 yards, a 0.002" bullet run out will shoot near 1 1/2 to 2 moa. A 0.003" run out will usually group in the 2 1/2 to near 3 moa range.

Remember that at 1000 yards, 1 moa is roughly 10", 2 moa is roughly 20" and 3 moa is around 30".

Still, in field conditions, most shooters can not hold these groups consistantly enough to tell much of a difference.

What I do is save everything with run outs od 0.002" and under for my "match" quality rounds. Everything over that is used for closer range sight-in rounds and for velocity test rounds.

I agree with your comments about the Redding Comp dies, they are second to none. As a gunsmith I also like the fact that I can "rechamber" the sliding sleeve to wildcat rounds for my customers using the same reamer I chambered their rifles with.

Also one can use the Comp sizing die to reduce neck diameter using step down bushings and neck run out numbers are usually very impressive. To do this though, the sleeve needs to be cut to allow the larger next of a parent case.

One example is a set I made for a customer for a 257 STW I built for him. Using three bushings(.304", .295" and .286") he can neck down 7mm STW brass and it looks like factory brass and the neck run outs are usually in the 0.001 to 0.002 range, not bad for virgin brass that has been necked from .284" to .257".

Good Shooting!!!

50

Sidewinder,

Your talking about Over All Length,

Ruck is talking about bullet run out, two very different things!

50

Sorry for the blunder Ruck!

Thanks fiftydriver, as soon as the weather improves, i plan on taking the rounds i've loaded and comparing them with regard to runout. I plan on shooting groups @ .001 runout, .002 runout to see if there is really any difference or if it's all in my head. I agree however, i'll keep the stuff above .003 for the closer range stuff. Thanks for such an informative reply!
Ruck

I try to keep the runout on my varmint rifles down to .003"
or less. Many times the runout is less. I use Wilson NS knockout dies and a little rawhide mallet. OAL is a different horse altogether. I can't reach the lands in some of my rifles anyway. As important as anything else to improvement in my groups has been much more attention given to bench techniques. I doubt I'll ever get the desired one hole group, but it's certainly fun trying. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Ruck: I bought a nifty bullet runout gauge made by the NECO company about 9 years ago. It does a lot of things in regards to determining how straight loaded rounds are and how round bullets are and various measurements of ones brass can be made! I think I can even tell how round a chamber is after firing new brass in a Rifle and comparing that brass with full length sized brass! Neat tools these runout gauges are. Trouble is once you find out you have excessive runout in reloaded cartridges or a problem with brass there are not many remedies for these problems! I found myself simply buying new dies a couple of times when I had problems with cartridge runout that I worried about and could not correct. I make notes on cartridge runout in my loading log for each Rifle/cartridge I load for. I usually express this in terms of "under .0035" runout" etc.
Well let me give you my take on "crooked" loaded rounds for Varmint Hunting. I do all my load testing at 100 yards in as calm conditions as possible. I prefer to shoot in no wind conditions when load testing and sight in verification. I have shot some excellent 5 shot groups at 100 yards with various Varmint Rifles that were using cartridges with .0035" runout and less. When my dies begin producing loaded rounds "crooked" in excess of .004" I do something! I try various things like changing the lock rings on the dies and then resetting the dies. I have tried rubber washers and "O" rings also.
Be sure and try your .001". .002 and .003" runout cartridges all mixed together for a 5 shot group test also. Like I say I often get excellent groupings with those type runout numbers from my Varmint Rifles.
Now I do not know for sure but I think that if you get good groups or acceptable groups at 100 yards with the mixed runout cartridges then do as I do - don't worry about segregating them by runout for Varminting.
Just because you have cartridges with .003" runout does not in my experience mean you can't shoot excellent, good or acceptable groups. Believe me I have done so many, many times.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I will kinda second the last post.
Runout makes less difference than I thought it did.
Anything over .004 used to get put into the " offhand practice " bin.
But, after shooting some rounds with .006 - .008 runout, and getting .500 groups I'm not as sure it makes as much difference as I had thought.
I still think less is better than more.

Travis F.

Fifty Driver and Ruck, First Fifty Driver, Your reply and answers to Ruck were SUPER!!! I don't think there is much for RUCK to worry about if all his round are .003 or less!!!
RUCK, Been there, done that!!! You are young just like I was at one time! You are searching for the "holy grail" of reloading! IT AIN'T THERE!!!! You are trying to acheive TONY BOWYER(pretty good BR shooter, from VA I might add) accuracy from a factory gun!.......ain't gonna happen! Does the groundhog know the difference? Or the crow? or the coyote? NO,NO, NO!!!!! You've obviously got a pretty good rifle. You obviously know a bit about loading for it! Look me up when you get home from school in the spring and I will help you through this quandry!!!! I might even let you go shooting with a bunch of people that know a heckuva lot more than me!!! Go to wildcatshooting.com and look us up!!! Charlie (GHD) PS: See you at Franklin Rod and Gun sometime!!!

Run out only matter up to the point that the chamber will bend it straight to.

A study in "Handloading" by Davis and the NRA shows that at .004".

Cal Sibley,

I would tend to agree with your comments about bench work being most important, that is as long as you can shoot well.

My customers like the way I have my reamers throated. Generally, I have about .080" to .110" length of throat on my reamers. I also keep throat diameter at 0.0005" over bullet diameter.

This is not quite as tight as you can get them but it keeps the bullets in line with the bore very well and as long as your rounds are of good quality, will usually run in the 1/8 to 3/8" group size at 100 yards with Lilja barrels in standard varmint calibers.

From my tests on the rifles I have built with this throat design, I have seen no accuracy variation with different bullet seating depths, I have noticed some velocity variations depending on different lengths but this gives the loader the ability to tune their loads just how they want.

The wilson stuff is top notch equipment but as most loaders have stardard presses, I recommend the Redding Comp dies for all my customers wanting extreme accuracy.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Clark,

THe amount of runnout in ammunition effects much more then just bullets pointing straight down the bore.

You say that anything over .004" RO will be straightened by the chamber. I do not believe this to be true, in fact I have seen bullet run outs continue to degrade accuracy up to and over .015".

Also, a canted bullet will induce uneven stress in the bolt with in a factory rifle with bolt lugs that rarely bare evenly will enlarge groups dramatically.

Also, say you chamber a round with 0.005" run out and even if you chamber that round and the chamber corrects it to 0.004" run out, on one round the bullet nose will be pointed down from that .004" RO while the next one may be pointing to the left the next to the right and so on and so on. This difference in how the bullet engages the rifling will cause groups to grow as well.

I believe run out numbers are huge factors in accuracy, just as much in factory rifles as custom rigs.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Refer back to page 1 where GHD stated that these guys shooting factory rifles are "searching for the holy grail"!! It ain't gonna happen folks!!!
Ruck, you can probably kill groundhogs as far as you can shoot in Franklin Co! Or Floyd, or Bedford or Montgomery, or even WASHINGTON CO where you're going to school!!! You don't have a problem!!! GHD

lol u got it GHD...not shooting much over 500yds except in a few places. Regardless its still nice to be as accurate as possible!...next project 6.5x284 for the ones out there
Ruck

Ruck, A guy is supposed to bring me a 6x284 built on a 1917 action, with dies and brass for me to inspect on Fri. or Saturday. You coming home this weekend? I'm headed yor way tomorrow to visit Nancy at UVA@Wise. cell phone is 540-484-2458 if you want to try to catch me. GHD