I'll open by mentioning that for the first several years of my varminting, I used .22 LR's and .22 Magnums. I got within 100 yards or so of our "groundhogs" that we have here in Southwestern Virginia before taking the shot. Shots made with the .22 LR would rarely stop those animals in thier tracks, and often a second, third, or even a fourth shot was required before the animal stopped flailing.

The .22 WMR helped that situation some, but again proved not to be a consistent one shot stopper on groundhogs unless range was kept at 50 yards or so.

I would hear tales of folks shooting their 220 Swifts and 22-250's at 400 and 500 yards and "blowing groundhogs in half." And being relatively young and inexperienced with high powered varminting rifles, I believed those tales.

The most notorious was a claim of a shot on a groundhog at "just a shade under 500 yards" which resulted in the groundhog literally "exploding," leaving bits and pieces of its body hanging in the branches of the apple tree the varmint had reportedly been sitting under. The rifle was reported to be a 220 Swift.

I've used the .223 and the 22-250 on groundhogs at ranges inside 300 yards, and have come to the conclusion that the .223 is best kept to about 150 to 200 yards on these animals. The 22-250 and the 220 Swift, provided they are loaded with heavy (50 to 55 grain) bullets, can be effective on groundhogs out to 300 yards, perhaps a bit beyond, but when you get to 400 yards even the heavier .22 caliber bullets have slowed too much for a certain immediate kill. Groundhogs are pretty tough.

I've seen a two medium sized groundhogs hit at 330 and 335 yards (laser measured) with 40 grain VMAX Hornady bullets launched from a 22-250 at 4100 fps crawl back into their holes. They were later found dead near the mouths of their holes where they had crawled partially out. In both cases, the entrance of the bullet was very hard to find, and there was no exit.

I think a large part of these myths were started by folks who "stepped off" range in the pre-laser rangefinder days. In this part of the country, we often shoot from atop a hill, across a dale, onto another hill. You can easily turn a 175 yard shot into a 400 yard one doing that.

I still have my light calibered varmint rifles, but I use them at more realistic ranges these days. If I were shooting prarie dogs or an equally small animal, I wouldn't hesitate to use a 22-250 to 500 or 600 yards, if I could hit that far away!

But for groundhogs in the Eastern U.S., I'm staying with the .270 win and the 30-06. That may sound like overkill to some, but for those who have compared the performance of the .22's to the larger calibers at ranges beyond 250 yards or so, it won't sound like such a bad idea.

If you want to "blow a groundhog in half" at 400 yards, it takes considerably more power than the light varminters can deliver.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Green, you'll never make a Gun Writer telling the truth like that!

Your account is just one reason why I don't have a laser range finder. I'd rather guesstimate my ranges...and I'm too cheap.

Seriously, I agree with you 100%. Probably 90% of all distances are over-estimated and "pacing them off" is a piss poor way to prove anything.

Green:

Absolutely!!

I'll go ya one better...I'd suggest that the vast majority of those "evaporated" groundhogs, 600 yd. deer and elk, and other exploits that we occasionally read about are accomplished while "keyboard hunting"

JimF

I've only been groundhog (actually, rock chuck, not sure how much different) hunting once. Buddy had a Howa 1500 heavy barrel varmint in .308 Win loaded w/ 125gr Nosler BTs. Othe guy had a Bushmaster V-Match 16" carbine shooting 52gr HPs. I had the 40XB in .220 Swift.

We were in the middle of an alfalfa field, prone, shooting at some chucks on a bank created by excavating huge amounts of rock and dirt for an irrigation canal. Talk abou a chuck heaven. Water, food, and housing, side by side. We were shooting from prone, on our bellies in the alfalfa stubble (ow!) At first I thought they had to be 400yds away, judging by my misses, but turns out they were closer to 300, I just had some serious issues w/ scope relief and cheek weld on that gun.

The best way to sum up the performance of those rounds is like this: When the guy w/ the .223 tagged one standing up, it was kind of like the a Nestea dive, gently tipping over backwards. When the Swift connected (55gr V-Max @~3850fps), it kind of picked the chuck up, jack-knifed them, and set them back up to a foot. The .308 Win w/ the 125gr BT's? Well, there wasn't any need to check for confirmed kills. The whole damn rock behind the victim was RED!! Don't think any chuck sized critter could lose that much bodily fluid, especially blood, and be alive.

Monte

I discovered this back in the 50's when all I had was a .222 and a 06. The 125 Sierra will really anchor them out there. We bought a 50 lb drum of Ball C from Hogdon and I loaded them up in my Enfield and headed into the field. It was very hot and as I worked the bolt to feed another round in it jammed. The primers were falling out into the raceway! I had to take back the 1/3 one of us shared because all he had was a .270. Not a good powder for that cartridge.

Since I still have not rebarreled my 26" 243 that is my long range varmint rig I ordered a 7mm WSM. That will fill the bill. Right now I am relying on a .300 H&H.

If those Western elk hunters ever knew how tough our Eastern woodchuck is they would understand why Match Kings are not good enough for us.

JimF,Just to let you know...Any non moving deer or elk within 600 yard's of me is dead.No maybe's,just plain dead.If I missed a deer at 600 yard's I would sell every gun I have and take up golf............Contrary to what some people belive.There are people out there that can make shot's like that.....EVERY TIME.......I killed a groundhog last Wed at 805 yard's.Got the range,put the click's on the gun and bang,dead hog...Some people have it and some don't......

The 50 gr and above bullets out of 223s and above have the same or more vel and more energy then a 22 at the muzzle at 600 yards. I am sure no one here would say that you couldn't kill a ground hog with a 22 at point blank. Sure they might not join the red mist club but they well be dead. I do see the deifferants in the mist effect way out there with the larger calibers but you still have one dead chuck or p dog if you hit them right.You hit them in the head or front shoulders they are not going to move lung shoot them or worse yet gut shoot them they are going to crawl off. Still they well die.

A woodchuck must die before it get's to it's den. That's the rule. That's the reason for the power.

There are rules? Damn, I'm in big trouble again. All I've been doing is shooting the shit out of them from 150-400 yards with a 22-250. Lost a couple that I just winged, but most of them opened up pretty good.
No, I don't trust my guesstimating skills at that range, I use a rangefinder and my buddy is my spotter.
But for really spectacular shots at those ranges, a 25-06 is hard to beat with ballistic tips of just about any size.

Boyd:

Note, my comment was "vast majority"....Good on Ya mate!!

BTW when you put the "clicks on the gun" was it with the scope turret or the mouse??

(couldn't resist)

JimF

Boyd, at least you're humble about you skills.

I try....... . I'm Not bragging.I just hate to hear people that have probably never shot over 100 yard's at the range find it impossable to kill deer or whatever at extended range's.....I got guff from a guy like that at the range one day while working up load's for my 1000 yard Bench rest light gun.I told him the last deer I shot with that gun was at 875 yard's.He pretty much called me a liar...I saw his 5" group from his 30-06 and can understand why he did'nt belive me.....

This is a pretty good topic and you have some good responses here. (Though I think one of the poster is pretty much full of it!)

But if you really want to "explode" a woodchuck you could try what my dad's buddy is shooting. We have marmots here in CA in the high country and while there are not lots of them, they are fun to shoot up in the high Sierra's.

My dad's friend has a couple of new rifles that literally blow a marmot into little bitty bits!
He is shooting a 300 Weatherby and a 300 Remington Ultra Mag. In both rifles he is using the Hornady 110 grain V-Max. I have not seen it, but my dad says that all that is left are a bunch of little chunks and the head.

Velocity makes all the difference!

R F

Yep, I'd say those tools are more than adequate, Mr. Flowers!

You know, believe it or not, I've *never* owned a belted magnum. It's not that I'm afraid of them, it's just that I've not yet gotten a hankerin' for one.

But your post has me rethinking that ... !

I guess I'm sort of a one rifle/one load kind of guy, so I usually try to come up with an all around load for each of my rifles. Then I put a small piece of paper on the scope's objective bell with trajectory data.

Milanuk has me wanting to dedicate one of my old Remington 788 308's into a 125 grain Nosler BT launcher, slayer of hogs! And Sheister makes an excellent point regarding the 25-06, which is a chambering I've been thinking about for long range varminting.

But a 300 win mag pushing 150 grain BT's at 3400 fps is certainly a thought! (Wouldn't do a bad job on the bigger critters either, for that matter...)

Till then, though, my old .270 sure can flip 'em inside out a-waaay out there! ... She sure can...

And now I'm coming back to my senses...

Thanks for the posts, guys,

Dan Newberry
green 788

RFLOWERS,If it's me you are refering to as being full of it,I get it all the time.And it's usually from people who don't have the skill to make a shot like that..............

Hey Ya'll, I'm still here - once in a while anyway.

I started out shootin' 'hogs with a 7MM Rem Mag a long time ago when I was about 10. Used 160 grain Sierras. Made some damn long shots. They very seldom got in the hole. Bought me a dedicated varmint rig. .22-250. Had lots more get in the holes. My wife got me a .25-06 in '90. I use 100 grain Nosler BTs for everything from ground squirrels to big mulies. Ain't had a hog get in his hole yet. Made the longest shot ever last week. One shot. 813 laser measured yards. Center chest. I believe Boyd. Just wish he weren't so damn modest.
Any ya'll contemplating a .25 - get one of some persuasion or the other - long as its a .25.06 or faster - you'll be glad ya did.

A .25-06 and 100 grain Ballistic Tips "kill like chain lightnin'."

Thanks for the info, Sarge. The 25-06 may be my next investment. I'll keep studying on it...

For what it's worth, I've hit small gongs at 800 yards when conditions favored it, and have shot some pretty good long distance groups with my .308 Savage 10FP.

So I believe that varmints can be hit at long range, but as any long range shooter knows the conditions have to be with you. And there will probably be a fair number of missed shots to be counted for every long range kill.

Even Carlos Hathcock didn't connect every time ...

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Green:

All I can offer is an affimation of what Sarge has posted. I have two 25-06's one is a 22" bbl. ultralite, the other is a 24" custom bbl medium contour. I use the same bullet and load in both guns for everything from ground skwulls to coyotes to Californika Mule Deer. Most versatile single load Iv'e ever found.

54.2/IMR 4831/CCI 200/100 Nos. Btip

"Never seen chain lightning....then again, maybe I have"

JimF

OL Sarge....The gun I use for hog's is 30" Hart barreled 300 RUM pushing 220gr MK's at a touch over 3100fps......It's my 16.5 pound 1000 yard Bench Rest gun..............As for not being modest..I just get very tired of people telling me thing's like that can't be done.My dad told me a 500 yard shot on anything was impossable.Until he killed his first LR deer at 605 yard's 2 year's ago.....He also got his first "500" hog this year..If a person can put 10 in the black at 1000 yard's.He can sure kill a deer at that far...

Boyd, what I want to know is how you get the critters to stand still at 500 & 1,000 yds?

And what I really want to know is how you spot all this long range game?

I got on a "long range shooting kick" years ago and decided I was gonna start shooting big New Mexico jackrabbits at 1,000 yds. I built me up a big heavy barrel rifle. I put a 4X16 scope on it, plus took my binoculars and went out to make the wilderness a better place. I shot rabbits at 100 yds. I shot rabbits at 200 yds. I shot rabbits at 300 yds! But somewhere between 300 & 400 yards a funny thing happened! I couldn't SEE a jackrabbit beyond that distance!

Sure I could have seen him if someone had set one out in a nice clear spot and pointed him out for me........but in the real world....there just aren't many rabbits available beyond 400 yds.

I can believe this stuff for prairie dogs and other critters dumb enough to sit around on a bullseye. But most other animals got better sense.

Finally, what do you do with the deer and hogs you spot at say 250 yards? Do you just ignore them or what? I figure if you can spot stuff any time you like at 500 + yards, you SURE should be able to find critters at closer range.

No one is doubting an animal can be HIT at 500 or even 1,000 yds. Hitting it isn't the issue.

This is starting to sound a lot like tha match king thread Boyd. All these poor folks that never have and never well because they just do not belive it can be done. Matter a fact a deer or hog is more likely to stand still for you at loner ranges because they don't belive anything is around.

Dog, I don't doubt they will stand still at those ranges. My question was just how he went about spotting them and setting up these wonderful shots. I'm no expert on Pa. where I believe Boyd is from, but the last time I was across the state, it looked sort of like the only way to get a 500 yd shot would be to hunt along the highways. Maybe I just missed the open parts of the state.

And I'm curious what he does with all the animals in between his muzzle and the 500 yd mark.

Another good question might be how does he decide which animal is WORTH shooting and whether it is a buck or a doe standing magnificantly 600 yds down range? Boyd obviously has some FINE OPTICS.

Surely he doesn't just shoot at everything that looks like a deer or maybe a hog out there 1/4 mile away. It might be Farmer Jones squatted down answering a call of nature. And Boyd never misses! Could be a fatal combination.
Farmer with diarreah and a hunter who never misses.

Pecos,It is VERY clear to me you are WAAAAYYYYY behind the time's.....As for fine optic's.Yes I have the best.The one's I use for spotting are BIG EYE'S.Two Bushnell spacemaster spotting scope's in an adj bracket with 22 power wide angle eye pieces...I have seen deer at over 3000 yard's using those OPTIC'S....As for a Buck at 600 yard's,if I can't see horn's with my naked eye,it's not worth shooting..........Yep, you missed the OPEN part's of the state.Got to get off the Interstate sunshine....And the deer under 500 yard's.....That's what 270's are for...I just shot a video for a buddy of mine on a RED TAG hunt....I was 750 yard's away for him and I could read his tag number.....So take that 4 power Tasco off your turdy turdy.Get yourself some GOOD OPTIC'S and sit back and relax.YOU just MIGHT learn something....

Step right up folks, Get your tickets now!!!!
This promises to be a great match.

In the left corner, you may know him from the famous Matchking thread where he drove BillT to an apparent heart attack. He's tough he's rough and he's not afraid to shoot a pink gun. The first to charge into the battlefield in defense of long range hunting. Here's Boyd Heaton.!

In the right corner. Best known for driving B3 from the ring after a long and tumultuous battle. He's got experience on his side(see "Idiot things I've done with a gun") and the scars to prove it. No one can take a 3006 bullet to the head better. Lover of Bushnell. Here's Pecos45

Now boys we want to see a good knock him down drag out fight. And remember no political correctness allowed and don't try to kill each with politeness. That said let the games begin!!!

ROFLMAO!

Nope, afraid I'm not going to fall for this. I think Boyd is just being silly. After all this IS the TALL TALES THREAD. And like the old saying goes, "First liar doesn't stand a chance."

I know when I've met my match. I'll just take my poor little 270 and slink away so Boyd can get back to all them 1,000 yard shots. I bet with a little practice he could drop those hogs at 1,500 yds! And with his optics he can probably count the fleas on them too! He's either the world's greatest marksman or else he's got a defective keyboard that puts a zero or two on every number he types.


Good hunting, Boyd. Try to leave a few for the rest of us, eh.

Pecos45.....Find yourself a good 1000 yard Bench Rest shooter.Look their stuff over.And then tell me I'M being silly....As for the GH's at 1500 yard's....Never done it myself.But I have seen it done.............A 300gr MK does a number on them.......Even at that distance........As for being the world's greatest marksman......Never said I was.But I must be better than some....

..can't resist - true story...

I was a grunt in the QueSonValley south of DaNang (when I was young).
Some poor old lost Malaysian tiger had wandered into the war zone and killed & eaten two of the local farmers who had sneaked back out to their farms to grow & harvest rice for the VC/NVA.
It came down the through the pike(CO) that it was my squad's job to go and hunt down this poor confused puddy cat.
I told the guys in my squad that when we saw him we'd set up a stalk and get ourselves a trophy- Yeah Right! Brewer, my "pig" gunner (M-60 for those not military) saw him 1st and hosed him with the 60 from about 700yds. There wasn't a piece of hide big enough to make a wallet out of.

(I'm the tall pretty one in front



[ 08-21-2002, 19:25: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

I don't claim to be a great shot, I don't claim that bushnell is the best and I don't claim that I can hit it each and every time. But I do love to go out and " play" with big heavy rigs, after all we are all kids at heart and we can choose our playground

One thing, sitting 1000yds away from my game is DEAD boring. I stalk, search, walk the trails, and listen for noises in the bush. Exploring the nature around me is a lot more rewarding then to set myself up on a hill and wait till the game comes up to me.

Perhaps all your hi tech crap distanced you from the idea of hunting, perhaps your idea id different then mine. I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm not saying that you should not do it but I just wanted to point out that my idea of hunting is different them yours.

Just out of curiosity I pulled this from www.dictonary.com
hunt Pronunciation Key (hnt)
v. hunt�ed, hunt�ing, hunts
v. tr.

1.To pursue (game) for food or sport.
2.To search through (an area) for prey: hunted the ridges.
3.To make use of (hounds, for example) in pursuing game.
4.To pursue intensively so as to capture or kill: hunted down the escaped convict.
5.To seek out; search for.
6.To drive out forcibly, especially by harassing; chase away: hunted the newcomers out of town.
v. intr.

1.To pursue game.
2.To make a search; seek.

Hey them hogs ain't gotta hold still forever. I once shot one while he was down. He kept popping up and down a about regular one second intervals. I kept whistling trying to get him to stay up but was so far away he either couldn't hear me or didn't pay any attention. I finally timed him and fired a split second after he dropped down and he stood right back up into it.

How's that for a tall tale?

This guy made his shot from "2430 meters"!!!!! that's 8000' or 1.3miles (NO-BS)
Now that's a Looooong way......

Sniper makes kill from 2430 Meters

[ 08-21-2002, 19:32: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

Kromer.#2 To search through an area.That's what I do....I just do it from one spot....Don't you ever sit in ONE spot,or in a tree stand?????I guess people in tree stand's aren't HUNTERS either.I sit in ONE spot and SEARCH OUT or SEEK.It's NO different than someone sitting in a tree stand watching a field or clearcut,now is it.I still do it YOUR way....Or the way you call HUNTING......But I find it too BORING..........2430 Meter's WOW.....Pecos,Did you hear that???????How could they tell they were shooting at one of them and not one of their own.....They must have fine OPTIC'S....

I like the definition I read on another site several months back:

If your game is so far away that you can jump up and down, waving your arms, and screaming the Battle Hymn of the Republic at the top of your lungs without your quarry taking notice, that's not hunting. It's shooting.

Might be damned good shooting, but shooting just the same!



Dan Newberry
green 788

that's the way I see it Green

I think that all you guys that do not shoot your game with a bow and don't get with in 25 yards of the game are just buchers. Anybody can get with in 100 yards of game it's the last 75 the gets tough. Any body can kill game with a rifle just to dam easy. Now stop blowing how much better hunters you are with your big guns and take up the real sport.
<<<< I have killed game at spiting distance and longer then you short range hunters think is possible. There is nothing better or worse about one or the other. They both have their merits and proplems I seen more deer wounded by short range hunter then I have by the long range guys. That because most people do not take their shooting serious.

PDS - The only deer I ever killed with a bow and arrow laughed himself to death.

Truth is I reckon hunting is a personal thing and it's kinda presumptions for any of us to tell another fellow how to go about it. Only thing I ask is a clean kill/minimum suffering should always be the objective. Any time a hunter's situation won't allow him/her to perform with this much respect for their fellow creatures, then they aren't much of a person or a hunter in my book.

I kill them just as quick,and just as clean as anybody else.I've only had to shoot one deer more than once at long range......The deer fell when hit.......And it took me about 10 second's to finish the job.

Hi all, interesting thread. just have to put in my two cents worth. Boyd, have you ever been close enough to an animal to smell it, to hear its breath, the crack of the foliage as it feeds on plants? To me, that is hunting. Get as close as you can, then get closer still. For me, that gives me a big buzz. I love the feeling of being so close to an animal that I can smell it. I bow-hunt also and that is even more of a buzz.
Having said that, if what you say is true about your long-distance shooting, than you are truly the best shot i have ever heard of. Are you on the U.S Olympic team? If not, you should be!!
Good luck and good shooting.
AJ1