Gents,
I have floated the barrel and bedded the action on my new/old Rem m700VLS .22-250 Varmint rig and am currently fireforming some brass with some of the 45g Winchester USA loads.
I have been in the habit during the last few years of only neck sizing my brass.Even with a Full length die set ,I normally back off the die to only size down about 3/4 of the way down the case neck,leaving the balance of the case fireformed to the chamber.

I do not have a set of .22-250 dies currently and I will be buying a set in the next 30 days.I have been thinking about getting a set of the New Hornady match dies.They come in a Neck/shoulder bump or a Full length set.

Which would you get and why??

Please remember,the dies will reload ammo ONLY for that particular rifle..

Sharpman,

When it comes to dies that I recommend for my customers that want to get teh most accuracy they can out of the rifles I build them, I recommend only two brands of dies for the conventional swing lever presses.

For a sizing die, I really only fully endorse the Redding Comp. Bushing Neck Sizing Die. Hands down the best die on the market for controling neck tension and for keeping case neck run-outs in the 0.001" range or less. Simple a must for extreme accuracy.

As for a seater die, I will recommend one of two. THe first is the companion to the Redding Comp sizing die, the Redding Competition Seating die. These dies are again the best availiable for the money.

With sized brass with neck run outs in the 0.001" range or less, this seating die will produce ammo with bullet run outs in the same 0.001" range or less about 95% of the time. This is exceptionally good performance.

Other then that I will only recommend a Forster BR seating die. Basically as good a quality as the Redding without the bells of the Redding. It is also cheaper, running around $30.00 for the Forster compared to twice that for the Redding seater.

Forster also offers a seater die called the Ultra seater that has a micro meter adjustment similiar to the Redding and nearly as expensive.

One way to look at expensive dies is that they are a fine investment. Your rifle will only shoot as well as the weakest link in the set up. Why let it be your ammo thats holding you back.

Good Shooting!!!

50

I quite agree about the Redding Competition reloading dies. They're tops. I have a couple sets and really find they produce concentric ammo. I also have a couple sets of Wilson NS bushing knock out dies and like them as well. The only problem is you'll still need a full length sizing die for the odd time it is required to bump a shoulder back.
Good dies do make a world of difference. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Gents,



Thanks for your replies and help on this.I was mostly concerned about which TYPE of dies I should get-the Neck size shoulder bump only or the Full Length style.BOTH dies size the neck via a floating bushing in the Hornady match sets.



The difference is the full case sizing length capabilites of the FL set.I have heard of BR shooters sizing the bodies of there cases every few reloadings to reduced the forcr required to close the bolt.I guess that was my main question.



I really did not mean for my post to become any sort of referendum on Hornady dies as a brand.I surely am aware of the Redding and Forester products and I do own several Redding dies sets..Very nice stuff.I have used Hornady reloading equipment for well over 20 years and I think they make a quality product that just keeps getting better.I have problems with the way they design some of their dies for certain applications,but no problems with their basic quality.



I can get the same features on Hornady's match dies sets

for 1/2 the cost of a Redding set.Right now, that means a bit to me.Also,I have never tried a set of the bushing match dies from Hornady and I would like to.



Fifty Driver,thank you for your response to my question.I enjoy your posts here a lot,they are very informative and you obviously care about your craft as a gunsmith.I have noticed you say you are relatively new to gunsmithing.I do have one friendly bit peice of advice-never fall into the trap of thinking a product can not be as well made just because it is not the most expensive product in it's class.I noticed you did not mention the Hornady dies.That could be that you have no direct experience using them.I don't know.



I did a LOT of product testing for a gunmagazine about 15 years ago.One thing I DID learn during that time is very often the lower priced stuff work surprisingly well and the high priced items often worked no better.Since I had NONE of my own $$ tied up in these products(some of it WAS reloading equipment)I could be very unbiased and I did learn alot from the experience..



Yes,in this big old world we often DO get what we pay for.BUT in the world of high production manufacturing,sometimes price is NOT always the final indicator of quality.Take the die sets were are discussing for example.



Hornady dies MAY indeed be functionally the SAME quality as Redding products for less cost because A) Hornady's production and distubution of their products is more efficiently run B) Hornady simply sells more dies,thus can charge less money C) Hornady is diversified SO much more than Redding in terms of product mix they can afford to profit less from die sales.D) Given the different locations they are made in (Nebraska vs New York),Redding also must charge more for their products than Hornady due to higher fixed overhead costs.Frankly,I think ALL the above reasons explain why Hornady dies CAN cost less and still be just as well made inside.



My real point with all of this is you are certainly correct, Fifty driver,Redding dies have a sterling reputation and are nicely made.However,based on my own experience, Hornady dies are just as nicely built and fully backed by the company.



I will try out the Hornady dies and report the results back here.Until then, what say you gents??



Neck size only OR full length??

Sharpsman,

For a new set of dies I suggest the Lee Collet Dies for neck sizing and the Redding "S" type FL bushing die for FL sizing.

I don't buy that volume equals best value spin on Hornady dies.

Sharpsman,

I agree full well that price is not the only factor in figuring out which product is better then the other. Obviously I feel the Forster seater is on the sme quality level as the Redding but it runs only $30.00 compared to $60.00 for the Redding.

I have a couple sets of Hornady dies and while they work fine and can produce good ammo when properly adjusted and set up, they will not put out the concistancy that the Forster and Redding dies will.

If your shooting a factory rifle, I would say any set of quality standard dies on the market will do if you set them up correctly when you start using them.

In a factory rifle, there are more variables in the rifle itself that will effect accuracy more then any set of dies will.

In a custom rifle though, that has been fully blueprinted, chamber cut to very minimum specs in a barrel of highest quality(I prefer lilja) with a throat diameter of between 0.0002" and 0.0005" over bullet diameter and finished off with a mqtch qualty crown cut to within 0.0002" concentric to the axis of the bore. Then have the barreled action perfectly bedded to a top quality stock.

The difference can easily be seen on paper at the range. You can put perfect ammo in most factory rifles and still not get a consistant 1/2 moa shooting rifle. Put that same ammo in a fine quality custom rifle built for accuracy and you will get groups in the 1's.

I have tested Hornady, RCBS, Redding and Forster side by side in rifles capable of grouping in the 1's and 2's and while I like Hornady and RCBS, they will not hold a candle to what the Redding and Forster dies will do as far as group size.

This is a simple matter of run out control.

So please do not feel I am bad mouthing you for using Hornady dies, I am not in the least. I agree they have been doing more for our sport then most of the other major companies combined over the last few years.

I was just recommending to you exactly what I tell my customers. I can do this with no second thoughts.

As far as which die from Horandy you should use, well, the FL is the most versitile as you know being able to partially size as well as bump the shoulder when needed but it will work brass more then the NS die. TO be honest, I would have one of each on the bench.

Good Shooting!!!

Let us know how they perform!

Kirby Allen(50)

Fifty Driver,

I did not think you were bad mouthing me at all or damning Hornady dies because you never mentioned them. You are certainly one of the most reasoned and thoughtful posters I have seen on this forum.I was just "sticking up" for the Hornady dies for my use in a factory rifle.One thing that MAY keep me from using the Hornady dies is that there bushings come in increments of .002" only,whereas the Reddings come in increments of .001" The greater latitude with the Reddings may tip that balance for me there..

Your reasons for prefering the Redding and Forester dies are dies are very sound considering most of the rifles you work with are tight spec custom chambered rigs.I am glad you mentioned the fact that in factory rifles,often other aspects of a rifle"s tolerances override what is done with the ammo.My goal is 1/2MOA out to 400yards(pretty stiff,I know )and if my intitial loading techniques don't produce it,I will go to greater lengths if needed(or rebarrel the rifle ).

This all reminds me a lot of my first experiences with Varmint rifles.I had owned a few varmint rifles for a few years before going to college in 1981.When I was at school at Oklahoma State, I roomed with a guy I had known as a teenager.He went to worked for the ADC as a Govt trapper for three years stright out of high school before quiting to enroll in college.Neither of us had dads who hunted.In my case i was largely self tought(I read a lot).
In his case,
the men who tought him to shoot rifles in OKC were a couple of National caliber benchrest shooters.He shot Remington m700s that they had rebarreled for him with "handmedown" benchrest barrels.etc and his equipment shot VERY well.

To my friend ,if it was not a Remington n700 with a Shillen or Hart barrel,a McMillan stock a Leupold scope, or a Sierra bullet,it was not worth using.

For several years we called a lot of coyotes each fall and winter.We used to get into some intense disussions about equipment as after tuning my Ruger m77V and Browning B78 .22-250s, they would shoot just over 1/2MOA consistently .His rifles averaged about .25-.3 MOA most days.

For coyote hunting ,his rifles were a bit impractical,IMHO.The m700 triggers were set so light that when enough dried oil and Oklahoma dust congealed in them the sear lever would lock up, often going off when the bolt handle was closed.His rifles had chambers so tight that he had to turn case necks when loading.

Even though his rifles were perfectly bedded in quality 'glass stocks,i
t also seemed that his rifle/load combos were continually "going south" on him due to minute production changes in components(powder ,bullets etc.) In short,it was very hard for him to maintain target accuracy in what were really field rifles using production components.Several times he had to send them down to OKC for the BR boys to look them over and help him work up new loads.Obviously things have changed though,particularly in terms of Bullet quality.We have production Bullet taday that are very close to the performance of hand made BR bullets.

I will say this though,when his 1/4 MOA .22-250 or 25-06 rifles were ON,it was a sight to behold !What they were capable of doing some days was most impressive..

Sharpsman,

I would say that there comes a point in rifle technology where a rifle leaves practicallity as a field rifle and is limited to a bench rifle.

My goal is to try to hybrid the two into the most accurate field rifles and handguns I can offer without the constant tinkering required for a BR rifle and load.

I have my reamers built to fallow this goal. They come with minimum but still within SAAMI spec dimensions in the case body area of the chamber. This assures that there will be no tight cases in the field even when chambering fireformed cases that have been properly sized and reloaded.

My accuracy theory is that 90% of what the chamber itself has to do with accuracy is in the neck and throat section of the chameber. For extreme accuracy I like tight necked chambers but for field hunting and even high volume varmint hunting, turning necks is a pain in the rear.

When I design a chamber reamer to be made, I take an selection of the top brands of brass for that round and measure the neck thickenss to find out what will be the tightest neck possible while still allowing no neck turning to be needed.

In the throat, an area that I feel is vitally important to accuracy, For a high volume varmint rifle or handgun, I will have the reamer built to cut the throat 0.0002" over bullet diameter. This is very tight but will greatly increase the life of the throat by protecting it from gas blowby and eroding of the throat.

On a pretator rifle or big game rifle I will often cut the necks about 0.001" to 0.0015" larger in diameter then my varmint specs simply to allow for more variance and the chance that dust may get in this area.

The throat on these rifles and handguns are cut 0.0005" over bullet diameter, still very tight but nothing that will induce a tight feed when you need to load in a hurry.

I to like Rem actions above all others for extreme accuracy rifles I built but I will use whatever the customer wants adn do my best to produce a rifle to meet their goals.

In the real hunting world, even a rifle that will average 3/4 moa is hell on yote well out to the 1/4 mark if the shooter is up to it, that is the key as you well know.

Us as humans are the weekest link in the modern rifle and a shooters marksmanship is often the biggest factor in success.

Good SHooting!!!

Kirby ALlen(50)

Sharpsman, I think your right on the diffence between the two bushing Hornaday and Redding. I like to clean up my neck since I use bushing type dies and been doing for so long just come with part of my reloading routine. If your trying to make the fired round concentric to the bore you have to get the neck thickness even so when it expands you get a better pressure column that will be inline with the bore. I learned something along time ago go to a BR match look at the loading area. Shooter use fired cases adjust neck tension and bullet seating depth. Alot been done now as to bullet dia and matching to the bore. I don't shoot BR but like alot they have brought into the shooting game. I only wish they had the Redding type s dies out about 40 yrs ago made reloading alot better. For me my type of relaoding allows if I get a factory rifle and it doesn't shoot something is wrong with the rifle could be the chamber isn't concentric to the bore etc. I may be wrong but isn't a neck die just that and not a shoulder bumping die also. I know Neil Jones makes a shoulder bumping die and they run about $200. for a set. I just started to get some of the Redding body dies and they work real nice. I've used there custom made dies on acouple projects and been real happy. Well good luck and keep us posted on that rifle.

Gents,



One way I have tried the snug things up a bit in my reloaded case to chamber fit is leaving a portion of the bottom of the case neck UNSIZED.



Generally the bullets I am loading are so sleek nosed that by the time I get the slug out to just "kiss" the lands in the throat only about 2/3 of the front portion of the neck actually grips the bullets bearing surface anyway!



So I only size about 3/4 of the neck and allow the remainder to center things better in the chamber.It seems to work pretty well, especially when using FL dies sets..



Fifty Driver,



My hats off to you.From your post above concerning chamber tolerances versus usage,you are RIGHT ON,IMHO.



You could rebarrel a gun for me anyday.



And if my 22-250 does not please me with a bit of load tuning work,you may get the chance!!

Sharpsman and fifydriver, What I am about to write may not please either of you! Fifty, I can fully understand your concern and trying to build the most accurate rifles you can muster up! If the truck don't start tomorrow morning, call somebody to fix it! I couldn't give a FRA about what makes them go or why! But measuring down to the .0001(ten thousandth for you folks that didn't catch it) trips my trigger with the machining bit!!! I cn appreciate your meticoulous machining! Now for Sharpsman! If your rifle is a factory rifle, then RCBS, REDDING, HORNADY, and LEE will all supply you with dies.....off the shelf that will probably load you ammo that will be up to the potential of that rifle! AND Lee Collet dies will probably come as close to loading the most concentric ammo at the lowest input price as anything the other three will offer! Just my thoughts after reading the back and forths for a couple days! Now fiftydriver, You and me are going to have to meet up and shoot someday! 1/2" at 100 is still easy!! 2" at 500 is still somewhat more difficult!!! I arrived at anther theory about 3 weeks ago tomorrow that you and I should discuss! That theory concerns "twists" and "weights" giving superior results up to 750-800 and then going to hell in a handbasket!!!! GHD PS: This post was all in fun with a little bit of real beliefs added in guys! Don't think I'm peeing on your Poast Toasties!!!!

GHD,

No problems here.Ya know, I had thought about the Lee Collet dies.I may try them first just for kicks.My cost on them is only like $25 so what do I have to loose?If I don't like them the local gunshop will give me nearly all of it back on trade(the owner is a friend)

Perhaps I will try them first just for grins...

GD,

I think we both look at shooting and accuracy from a similiar stand point, we both agree that some of the standard theories of accuracy are disproven every day while new one pop up if we pay attention to what is going on.

I have no problem at all with varing opinion, give another perspective on a situation and can often help solve lingering problems either directly or just by helping us test a theory or look at it from another direction.

I would truely enjoy spending some range time or better yet some chuckin' time with you.

Good Shooting

Kirby Allen(50)

Lot of good info here. From my perspective, I like the Redding S type FL sizing die using Wilson bushings. Why? You can control shoulder bump as well as half size the neck. This leaves a concentric ring to line up the case in a non-match, little-bit-loose chamber. The Wilson bushings can be turned "number down" and get the neck another .0005 tighter.

Have both the Redding micro seater and the Forster Ultra Seater. Like the Forster much better. Why? Lower cost AND it is much easier to set up by feel when you lower the seater stem to make contact with the bullet nose on the dummy round. With the Redding, it is too easy to drive the bullet down into the dummy round during adjustment of the tight fitting hex-head seating screw.
Ron