Hey guys-

Need some help and figured this was the place to turn to.
Have just within the past few months gotten back into varmint hunting after a 20 year hiatus. Purchased a foxpro 5 and jack in the box which so far have worked very, very well for me-six stands brought in four grey foxes and a bobcat (which I promptly missed ) Anyway, I'm shooting a .223 and have tried (all Black Hills) the 60 gr., 50 gr and now 40 gr V maxes with all having the same results--very dead foxes but fist-sized exit holes that of course ruin the pelts. The last fox I got the other day I hit a little back as she was quartering away at about 50 yds and it absolutely eviscerated her. Poor thing was a mess.
I expect to get another crack at a cat so want to be prepared for that opportunity, as well as the foxes, and I want a bullet that will work for both without the destruction.
I assume it's the V max design but there aren't too many other choices if you don't handload. Not nuts about FMJ but if that's my only option... On the other hand, all I need is an excuse to get a .17 HMR too .
Advice please!!

Thanks,
SV

Everybody loves pics!! 2 of the 4

For pelt hunting of fox, you are going to get an exit pretty much with any bullet, but the Sierra 55 grain GameKing is a bit tougher and seldom leaves exits larger than a nickel to perhaps a quarter in size. Keep the MV to no more than 2800 fps and it will perform even better. But I do not believe that bullet is available in factory fodder.

The 36 grain Varmint Grenade (available in Black Hills ammo) will work well on 'cats and will rarely exit, but a fox is not solid enough to always fully absorb the bullet's energy offering -- and a large exit may be the end result.

Winchester and Federal both offer a 64 grain PSP load that features a fairly stout bullet -- a bullet which should be relatively easy on pelts. It will exit, but the exits should not be gaping unless placed onto the point of one or both shoulders.

Another choice would be the Remington 55 grain PLHP. A plated bullet, the PLHPs generally shoot extremely well but don't offer the sheer frangibility of the V-Maxes and TNTs and thus are usually a bit easier on pelts.

Nice going on the foxes, by the way!

Forgot to add: The HMR does OK on fox but is lacking on 'cats, particularly outside of 35-40 yards.

Back when pelts commanded a premium, I did lots of calling, and for the areas where the shots would not exceed 100 yards (usually not more than 75-80), I used a .22 Magnum with excellent results. I even took quite a few coyotes with the good ol' .22 Magnum and never lost a single one.

Bobby,

How would a bullet such as the 60 gr Nosler Partition (I believe that is what they offer) do out of a .223?

I was wondering if maybe because expansion was more controlled it would zip right through and the exit wouldn't be much larger than the expanded bullet. Currently I shoot 40 grain Ballistic Tips out of my .223 and 32 gr out of my .204 and I get sporadic results on the hides. Some blow up and some you can hardly tell they were shot.

The Partition actually opens rather quickly, and unless you were using a somewhat-reduced load, it probably wouldn't be the best choice.

Scott mentioned he does not reload, so I didn't get into the reduced load possibilities. But I will mention this: If there is a single medium range (150 yards & under) bobcat-fox load that I prefer for preserving pelts, it would have to be the Hornady 45 grain Hornet pushed along at a sedate 2200-2400 fps. I've used it in Hornets, .223s and 22-250s and always got terrific performance. The bullet almost always exits, but the exit is generally the size of a dime and doesn't reduce the value of the fur.

At that velocity level, it expands more like a big game bullet and doesn't come unglued like it does at higher velocities. I have even used it loaded to right at 2000 fps and still got quick kills on fox, coyotes and 'cats out to 100 yards or so.

Bobby,

Good info you write.
The velocity numbers you state are important to me, and I'll use them iin the future. I have a bunch of Hornady 45 grain Hornet bullets and will use your loads for the 223.

Thanks,

Don

Scott,

Waidmannsheil!

Nice Foxes, too!

I'll second Bobby's reco on the 55 gr. Sierra GameKings, I load them for my Drilling's 5.6x50R (for all intends & purposes a .223 Remington Magnum with 3mm extra case length) insert barrel and it sees alot of winter Fox work. Those bullets normally hold together pretty well and don't rip Foxes apart.

Another angle I've used for a .223 Rem. is the 45 & 46 gr. Hornet HP bullets. They tend to not exit.....sorta like a "Slosh Dog" when you're done with 'em.

In lieu of all the High Steppers available as Varmint cartridges the best Fox cartridge I've ever used that was reliable out to 150+ meters (tried the 17HMR - it's a 75+ meters - after that all bets are off IMO) is the .22 Hornet. I expereinced say, 50/50 exit wounds but the exit holes are not large when they do occur.

Scott,

Sounds like you have a real "honey hole" for fox - don't give it away. As for your predicament, I have three suggestions:

1. If you always get close shots you may want to try a shotgun with something like the Remington HD BB or maybe even Turkey loads if it's just fox and bobcat under 50 yards.

2. If you are an accurate shot under field conditions have you considered head shots? Not a lot of pelt value in the head, but maybe harder to put on the stretcher.

3. You may also benefit from careful shot selection, but this also means waiting and missing opportunities.

Plenty of good suggestions on above posts as well. I have had very good results on coyote and one fox using a .223 with handload 40 gr. VMAX at 3,300 fps, but I've always been able to get broadside shots mostly because of the setups.

Thanks Bobby, Gerry, and erict!

Instead of an excuse to buy another gun it sounds like I need to start handloading, (although a .22 mag might be necessary too !)

erict, I have considered the shotgun or .22 lr (for headshots only!) but don't really want to lug two rifles and as far as shot selection--other than headshots unfortunately it doesn't seem to matter where they're hit, in my experiences. Distance might be the issue though as all shots have been under 75 yds.

Thanks again guys!

SV

Scott,

Try to locate a factory loaded .223 Remington with ultra light bullets; as I'm an avid reloader, so I don't purschase any off the shelf stuff but if you could find a load with some 40 gr. pills this might offer a remedy to the rip 'em in half issue.

You could try; say, Ugh....half reloading. won't go into the gory details but "Mexican Match" is a moniker for factory ammo with the bullets replaced.

try the winchester value packs in 50 grains the hollow point doesnt open quite as fast usally leaves a hole about these size of a quarter on cats havent shot a fox with one