hi there dont want to sound too stupid bet can anyone give me some reccomendations on the best cartridge to use for shooting crows out to 500yds maybe a little more. at present i use a 22-250 with 50 grain vmax out to 300yds but just gained some new shooting rights and can now extend my range.now that im looking to buy a custom rifle i want the best calibre for the job.here in england everyone says that the 22 calibres are not up to the job and that i should get a 243al and shoot the 87 vmax. the only other thing they said was to put on a fast twist 22-250 barrel and shoot 75amax but i dont know if they will expand enough and worry about riccoches. some even suggest 308win with vld bullets, but i think this is a bit to exccessive and the police will only let me go up to a 6mm rifle anyway. your reccomendations wld be really appreciated as this type of shooting is only starting to take off here in the uk and not many people know alot about it. one more question before i go if i may? one of the companies that i am looking to get my custom rifle off has them made in the usa by a chap called Dave Tooley, i was wondering if anybody knows anything about him as i read the vha magazine and never seem to hear anything about him,where as there seem to be lots of well know other riflesmiths advertise in thre regularly. thank you for any help you can give me it will be much appreciated.

Bunny:

My recommendation would be a 223 caliber with a one in 8 twist. This set up with 75 grain and 80 grain bullets doubles the effective range of the 223. The 75 grain Amaxes here are reasonably priced and are very accurate.

I can also tell you that I have seen a lot of people go the 22/250 route, or the 220 Swify, the 22/243 or 22/284. All of them give minimal velocity increase over the 223 with those bullets, but have a major increase in throat erosion, barrel wear etc. The trade offs are not worth the effort IMHO.

Powder for my 223 loads are 28 grains of H 380 and they yield velocities of 3000 fps+. I use it for 600 yd competition.

The next step up to achieve the same thing, would be a 243 or even moreso, a 6 mm Remington with a 1 in 8 twist and using 107 grain Sierras or 105 grain AMaxes. Berger Bullets ( dont'know if they can be gotten in Europe, but you do have some great Lapua stuff ) make a 105 Grain VLD and I just bought some 115 grainers with a BC of .600 plus. haven't tried them yet, but I have great expectations. For simplicity I would still do just the lowly 223. The 75-80 grainers were made for that round. After that you are burning more gas, getting less mileage, and not going any faster! Why bother??

Bunnybasher: A couple of thoughts here. How about using the Rifle you already have and going with the 55 gr. V-Max or the Nosler 55 gr. Ballistic Tips. I use my 22-250's on Varmints out into the 400 yard to 500 yard ranges quite often. To go along with these sharp pointed 55 gr. projectiles I suggest a laser rangefinder. Knowing the exact distance to your quarry and the exact trajectory at that range will take the guesswork out of that part of the decision on where to aim. You still of course have to deal with the wind! The 22-250 with the 55 gr. bullets is not to bad in the wind compared to the 6mm projectiles - take a good long comparative look at them in our loading manuals trajectory and wind deflection section. The 55's should shoot a little flatter at the 400 to 500 yard ranges than the 50's you are now using. If the Crows in England are as smart as the Crows I Hunt then your shots will often be the long ones! The 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in my experience are quite explosive and not much chance of a ricochet with them. I have not used the V-Max's much as yet.
I am familiar with many of the custom Riflesmiths in the northwest quadrant of the U.S.A. but have not heard anything good or bad about the smith you inquire of. I hope someone else can fill in that info!
Tally-ho on the Crow!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Seafire on a forum where it seems that more is always best your advice on the .223 vs some of the biggies is right on. I liked the explanatory reasoning.GREAT POST.

Flick,

Thanks!

Your wisdom and astuteness show maturity beyond your years!!

Plus you are a guy with excellent tastes!

thanks for the advice guys wanted to stay with a .22 calibre but everyone over here reckoned i needed more,but you have helped me make my mind up and i will try the 55g balistic tip again and see if i get better results this time(could not get it to expand very well last time)also i think you have won me over on the .223 score do u think it would be worth getting the improved version? as for bullets and other materials we can get pretty much what you have over there as there is a few companies importing this sort of stuff(4-5 times the price though). as for the crows being wary they are paranoid little buggers and you are luck to get within 300yds of them minimum with a gun, but walk up to them and point a stick at them and they just sit there.how do they know the difference?

As someone mentioned earlier-- probably Varmint Guy, don't discount the 55 Sierra Blitzking also-- it has a slightly higher B.C. than the Nosler counterpart. Also, when you start going beyond the maximum point blank range of your load/target size, you need to start shooting tactically, i.e. knowing range-- not guessing, and learning wind-doping skills, and LR scope reference.

I'll second the heavy 224" bullets. It's not the drop that gets you, it's the drift. the 75 gr. Amax hornady has a .4 plus BC -- quite amazing. FWIW, Dutch.

Bunnybasher,

How about pushing a 52gr 22 caliber bullet at 4280 FPS? Would this be of interest to you? It is a "wildcat".

What part of England are you from? I have been to the UK 6 times.

Don

sounds good groove but how many shots do i get from my barrel? im from northumberland in the northeast of england.

Bunnybuster,

I am presently at 550 rounds and the rifle still shoots accurate to 700 yards. I am looking at around the 1000 round mark when the throat will be pretty much fried. Hart makes new barrels every day

The way I figure, it comes down to, do you want to hit them or shoot at them.

About the furthest Northeast that I have been in England is Leeds. I know the Midlands area quite well (have relation in Stoke) and have been to Blackpool several times. I have relation in York (they don't live inside the walls). Went to Brighton the last time over just to sit on the beach and watch the views. I have fished and hunted in Scotland.

Don

sounds good groove, but was looking at getting around 2000 rounds out of a barrel as they cost silly amounts of money over here,wld love some more info on it though as i cld fancy having one built as an occasional plaything. u shld try northumberland sometime we have some of the best roe stalking and grouse shooting in the country and the open moors provide some good long range shooting.if u are ever in this neck of the woods give me a shout and i will be happy to put u onto some good sporting days. if u like predator calling u should come out with me lamping foxes, there are millions about and they are very cunning and make some very challenging shooting.

Bunnybasher,

Thanks for the invitation. I would enjoy the Sporting Clays shooting. I used to shoot Sporting Clays a lot over on this side of the pond. Grouse hunting sounds like a lot of fun. The hunting I did in Scotland was "driven pheasant".

I found out about the 22 CHeetah MK 1 from a friend. He has 2 rifles chambered for the CHeetah.

The case starts out as 308 BR and through a series of neck dies is worked down to accept a 22 caliber bullet. We turned our necks as well - tight neck. The "classic" load data is 44gr of IMR 4064 using a 52gr berger bullet. My rifle has a 27 1/2" barrel, heavy varmint contour, 1 in 16 twist, Hart match grade. The load was run through a chrony at 4280 FPS.

I used 42gr of 4064 to fire form the cases.
After fire forming I anealed the case necks.

I went with 243 brass instead of 308BR brass because I wanted to use large rifle primers. I use the rifle in cold weather as well as during the summer months and didn't want ignition problems.

I had my rifle built by Dan Dowling, Palisade, Colorado, 970-434-0525. He is available by phone from 9am till noon, Colorado time. Any other times and one would get his answering machine.

Dan has built 4 rifles for me, so far and does a great job. His attention to detail is great and his bedding jobs are second to knowbody.

Be well,

Don

Cheap and simple. Cheap dies, brass etc.

25-06... From prairie dogs to deer... Plenty of power and range.

Savage 10fp is cheap and very accurate. Be sure to get the 2003 model with the AccuTrigger.

$bob$

think i might just say to hell with barrel life groove and get one built.LDhunter looked at 25-06 but the police who licence us over hear are very fussy and some how think that we are going to be alot more dangerous with a rifle that shoots anything over 6mm for varmints(its only just recently they have allowed 6mm rifles purley for varmint shooting!)

Bunnybasher, as an Aussie who regards crows/ravens as the devil incarnate (just see what they will do to new born lambs or exhausted ewes), I have shot many a crow with the 223. Have also shot alongside many friends using 22-250's etc, and none of us can tell the difference, except for the noise level. 223 fills my bill. all the best,
Rugeruser

thanks for the advice rugeruser, i hate crows aswell they are the scum of the earth. you can`t beat seeing them explode into a nice big puff of feathers. i know what u mean about the lambs they are the same over here you get big brownie points off the farmer for shooting them and its great fun aswell. there are far to many around here for every one you shoot there seems to be another 10 waiting to fill the little buggers place.

Bunnybasher hi me again this tooly charecter rings a bell try minsterley range,s (the bog )down at my neck of the woods i am sure the bloke there deals in tooley,s rifles its worth a phonecall ??? its near srewsbury

Seafire is correct on using heavy bullets with 223 but I have used 52 gr for prairie dog hunting in Kansas and had good luck out to 600 yards. But the heavy bullets really help to buck the wind. One thing about heavy bullets 75gr A-max in particular, they tend to explode had high velocities. You won't have to worry about that with a 223 but with a 22-250 AI or 220 swift you do. They do tend to cause lots of throat eroion and barrel wear. 22/243 and 22/284 are big no no's for barrel life. They don't last long and will cause headaches to the gun owner, but would be alright if you have lots of money.

One thing that is not mentioned is that if you are shooting heavier grain bullets at high velocities you kind of get a double effect. The bullet although not traveling as fast as say a 223 40 gr bullet will do about the same amount of damage as a 75 gr bullet at max load because it takes longer for the powder to burn up. The longer the powder burns in the barrel the more erosion your going to get. Say you take 28 grs of Varget for a 40 gr bullet Max load traveling at 3600 fps and a 75 gr A-max with 25 gr of Varget traveling at 2900 fps. Say this powder takes 16 inches of barrel before it is burned up it will take the 75 gr longer to reach the 16 inches than it will take the 40 gr. With all the heat and preasure at its peak until it reaches the 16 inches, the pressure and heat will cause erosion. Plus with more bearing surface on the bullet, this will produce more bullet to barrel surface which will cause more erosion.

With regular case say 223 243 or 6mm you don't have to worry about it as much as you do with overbore cases like 22/284 and the 6/284. I personally have the 6/284 and I love it. I made a kill on a Prairie dog at 1440 yards with a 6/284 with 107 sierra.

I personally like the heavy bullets with most calibers I shoot. I love them for long distance shooting.

thank you every one for your help.i have come to some sort of decision since i like 22centrefires and have just come into a bit of money i am going to get my 22-250 sako customised for majority of shooting and also get a custom wildcat built in 22cheetah or similar, also looking next year for a custom 6mm with havy vld bullets.

bunny basher -
I think the guys have covered all the bases - but do think about putting a 1-9 twist barrel on a 22/250 and use the superb bullets from Lapua. You should also have access to Norma powders that I dont have here in New Zealand. The 14 twist that is standard on the gun is really a waste - you can still shoot 55 grain etc in the faster barrell.

I regularly use a 1-8 .223 for ranges well past 400 yds with lapua 70g Scenars. The BC is ridiculous! Theres also the Hornady 75g Amax and plenty of Bergers - you can get them in the UK.

Ive just finished a 243 AI on a BSA action, and a 22/250 wit a 1-9 is the next project ( just for the hell of it) - I use Pac Nor prefit barrells on the BSA's.

Best of luck

Derrick Bunn

Bunny basher....

Greetings from Norway.
Have you been thinking of the 6Br, that's really nice one.
If you have maid up your mind on the .224 bullet.
My choice would be:
Cal.223 or .223AI
Cal.22-250 or 22-250AI

I got a cal.22-250 in a Remington VS (lefthanded )
Will be rebarreling this one into a cal.22-250AI in the winter 2003/04 with a Pac-Nor barrel......

Planing on a hunting trip to Scotland in the spring 2004 after Roebuck.....

hi paal best place for roe is in the scottish borders or here in northumberland we have loads around here. thought of 6br but not sure if it will shoot flat enough with heavy bullets

BUNNYBASHER
Me again,Dave tooley has a website it is www.tooleyrifles.com just found it in an old gun mart mag Might have a look my self !!!

cheers for that steve i know of the web site and of dave ryan at minsterley but am trying to find out if anyone in usa has heard of him because if he is good surley someone in his own country will have heard of him! r ucoming around and getting to like ur moderator steve? it will be excellent now they r harvesting and u should be able to get quite a few cubs. off to cla game fair on fri are u going?

BUNNYBASHER
Not the CLA i usually go to the big one at weston park in sept.Was out on sun at altcar MOD ranges near formby to see what my homeloads are doing,not bad at 200 yrds because the little hornet is running out of puff by then,holding 4-41/2 about 6 inches low am pleased with that as i think that would be an extreme shot on fox,s i like to get them a lot closer than that.The mod is fine,am now working on a BSA martini int mk2 for sniping the bunnies.Getting all my decoys ready for the woodies!!

hi steve just shot a bag of 40 woodies at wkend on rape stubble, shot with a friends pigeon magnet, they were suicidal with that thing, gonna get one at cla. much prefer being out with the rifle though!

BUNNYBASHER
My mate makes and sells them at the gamefairs have got one but not tried it out proper yet will do this year defo

steve what name does ur mate trade under as i will check them out if he is at the cla, any ideas how much?

BUNNYBASHER
He trades under N+S SHOOTING SUPPLIES and is on gun makers row B 150,ask for big mick and tell him you now me.let me now how you get on!!

cheers steve will do that

Methinks .224 or larger will do the trick at 500 yards. The smallest cartridge I'd use is a .223 Rem on a clam day.

Hello Bunnybasher,
It sounds like you are going down the road that I have just trod!
I have had many varmint rifles in many calibres including .222, .223, .22/250,.243 & .308 and I did not think that the Remington VS in 22/250 could be beaten until I came accross the 6PPC. I purchased a SAKO stainless synthetic in 6PPC with only a light barrel but it out shot every other gun I have ever owned on everything from rabbits to Deer.
I then took the plunge and ordered a Tooley custom rifle from Dave at Minsterly, it took almost three years to arrive but it was worth it. Mr Tooley is a master gunsmith who's work is second to none, if you look through the pages of Precision Shooting his rifles are allways in the winners circle which is why his products are in big demand.You will wait a long time to get what you want but take my advice sell the car, the house or even the wife to raise the cash to get one!
Joking aside my rifle is based on a Nesika J type action, Heart fluted barrel, Jewell trigger, SAKO varmint McMillan stock. It is fitted with a Nightforce 8-32x56 NXS and a T4 Reflex moderator.
Performance? It shoots Bergers, Fowlers and Starke's for fun, best group so far 0.130 at 165 yards! I have settled for 65 grain VMax's as they shoot almost as well, grouping into around 0.250 at 200 yards at a muzzel velocity of 3400 fps!
I believe that you need this level of performance here in the UK as we don't have thousands of praire dogs to shoot at, you may only get one crack at that 500 yard crow (having said that the T4 moderators usually gives to two chances before they fly), let me illustrate my argument. My friend shoots a very accurate .222 SAKO varminter but on our last go at long range testing out to 400 yards in quite a strong wind I was grouping inside two inches with 4 MOA elevation and 4.5 MOA windage but my friend had 12 shots but only placed 3 on a 3 foot square target board! the .222 simply did not have the ballistic performance at this range in the awful conditions of the day.

Buy a custom 6PPC varmint rifle, weep at the huge hole in your bank balance but be a very happy bunnybasher for ever after!

Dave Tooley's place is not far from me, I've met him several times and own a couple of his rifles. He does great work, if a little pricey, and is very customer friendy. He builds a lot of 1000 yd rifles and definitely knows what he's doing. I don't think you'll have any problems with his work.

John

thank u everyone i think i will get my tooley rifle ordered now if im going to wait that long. always fancied 6ppc but thought they lacked a little oomph.

steve if u read this i have sent u a pm

Paal,
You're going to enjoy your 22/250 ACKLEY. I have one on a 700LSS, Shilen SS #4 bbl, that is the flattest shooting rifle I have ever owned. Barrel life be damned, i'm having fun.Good luck with yours.
Stepchild

Seafire: RIGHT ON about the fast twist and heavy bullets. I fully agree with you. I do however use a .243 super rock chucker for the long range shooting and it's a fine choice. I also agree with the .25-06 picks.