Seafire2

I picked up some powder that was unopened at a yard sale and one of the cans was Blue Dot. I'm anxious to start mucking around with some loads that you have developed here on the board. What other faster burning powders have you experimented with in the .223????

Thanks for sharing the results of your research. I do appreciate your work.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
I don't believe there's a free lunch here with out a suppressor which is of course illegal if you live in the states.

You know that one of the nice things about living in the USA is that anything not prohibited by law is legal. You also have never read any federal law that makes silencer ownership illegal in the USA. I know this because their aren't any. The ATF just requires the payment of a tax, and approval is routinely given to anyone who fills out the paperwork properly.

So that brings us to this question. Why would you bother to make a statement on a gun forum about a firearm that you absolutely have no reason to believe is true? Are you one of those self-loathing gun owners who discourage gun ownership? It sounds like it.

Montana is one of the 38 states that allow unlicensed persons to own them. Education is a wonderful thing, you might want to try taking advantage of it someday.

Ranb

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Seafire2

I picked up some powder that was unopened at a yard sale and one of the cans was Blue Dot. I'm anxious to start mucking around with some loads that you have developed here on the board. What other faster burning powders have you experimented with in the .223????

I'm not a Sea Fire or even a Hawker Hurrican for that matter; more like an AD4! Many of the faster powders I've tested in rifles , much of it in the .223 , are Rl7,Accurate #9, 4227, 2400,SR7625,4759,1680 and 680. As a steady reduced rifle reloading powder I recommend non of it with the possible exception of 4759. Even with the 4759 an understanding of the dispensing idiosincrsies should be studied and understood. roger

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
I don't believe there's a free lunch here with out a suppressor which is of course illegal if you live in the states.

You know that one of the nice things about living in the USA is that anything not prohibited by law is legal. You also have never read any federal law that makes silencer ownership illegal in the USA. I know this because their aren't any. The ATF just requires the payment of a tax, and approval is routinely given to anyone who fills out the paperwork properly.

So that brings us to this question. Why would you bother to make a statement on a gun forum about a firearm that you absolutely have no reason to believe is true? Are you one of those self-loathing gun owners who discourage gun ownership? It sounds like it.

Montana is one of the 38 states that allow unlicensed persons to own them. Education is a wonderful thing, you might want to try taking advantage of it someday.

Ranb

So buy one, use it by all means. I'm guessing as bright as you are you already have the ATF class III license you need so it'll be fine. Enjoy

P.S.
Silencers are not legal in Montana without proper permits so perhaps once you get yours you should come out and use it at some of the local ranges,
Free room and board in it for ya ..

Well said Roger, by the way.

Yo ranb40 possibly a little education might help??

This would be the Mt State law that deals with silencers and doesn't even deal with the Federal aspect but then you would know all this as an educated man huh?

Montana Code Annotated 2007.
Silencers
45-8-336.
"Possession of a silencer". (1) "A person commits the offense of possession of a silencer" "if he possesses", manufactures, transports, buys, or sells a silencer and has the purpose to use it to commit an offense or knows that another person has such a purpose.
(2) A person convicted of the "offense of possession of a silencer" is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for a term of not less than 5 years or more than 30 years or a fine of not less than $1,000 or more than $20,000 or by both such fine and imprisonment.

45-8-337. "Possession of unregistered silencer or of bomb or similar device prima facie evidence of unlawful purpose". "Possession of a silencer" that is not registered under federal law or of a bomb or similar device charged or filled with one or more explosives "is prima facie evidence of a purpose to use the same to commit an offense".
Bye-Bye

I apologize for the thread hijack, I'm done arguing the obvious with the oblivious, sorry .
Just wouldn't want someone to believe that drivel and end up making a silencer that took away their firearms for life and earned em a trip to Deer Lodge as it would most certainly do without proper and expensive Federal permits.

Now weren't we talking about reduced loads in the .223??

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:So buy one, use it by all means. I'm guessing as bright as you are you already have the ATF class III license you need so it'll be fine. Enjoy

P.S.
Silencers are not legal in Montana without proper permits so perhaps once you get yours you should come out and use it at some of the local ranges,
Free room and board in it for ya ..

I do not buy silencers, I make them. I do not have any license or permit to do so. I use the ATF form 1 instead because paying a one time $200 tax to the ATF is much cheaper than paying the $500 SOT and $2250 ITAR each year to keep them as a business.

There is nothing in Montana law that says a license or permit is required to own a silencer. It says that if you have a silencer for the purpose of committing a crime, then it is illegal. If you own one that is registered to you IAW the NFA of 1934, then it is legal.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
Yo ranb40 possibly a little education might help??

Your original claim (a derailment all by itself) was that silencers are illegal in the states (implying all 50 states). As long as you are so big on the law, show us the federal law that says silencers are illegal. If you bother to take a look, you will find that while a $200 tax, sheriff's signature and ATF (routine) authorization is required, they are legal. It seems you can read the law but not understand it at all.

Got the http://www.silencertalk.com and http://www.subguns.com and tell the Montana residents that their silencers are illegal. You will be laughed at.

Not only do you claim without any evidence that silencers are illegal in the USA, you persist in the face of evidence to the contrary. Like I said, education is a wonderful thing. Ignorance and prejudice are not. Please learn to tell the difference.

Ranb

ETA; More educational material for you. Read it, live it, love it.
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/states/montana/
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/La...naGunOwnersGuide.htm
http://www.progunleaders.org/Legis09/

I apologize for derailing this thread so much. I started another thread about the legalities of silencer ownership in the United States for those who are interested in learning more. Please look here; http://forums.accuratereloadin...3811043/m/1571084701 . Thanks.

Guess your education falls short of being able to read the Montana law I posted. But now I get it, your selling something and who cares who's affected?
Done with you nimmy, your ignored .
Love that feature .

deleted, double post.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
Yo ranb40 possibly a little education might help??

This would be the Mt State law that deals with silencers and doesn't even deal with the Federal aspect but then you would know all this as an educated man huh?

Montana Code Annotated 2007.
Silencers
45-8-336.
"Possession of a silencer". (1) "A person commits the offense of possession of a silencer" "if he possesses", manufactures, transports, buys, or sells a silencer and has the purpose to use it to commit an offense or knows that another person has such a purpose.
(2) A person convicted of the "offense of possession of a silencer" is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for a term of not less than 5 years or more than 30 years or a fine of not less than $1,000 or more than $20,000 or by both such fine and imprisonment.

45-8-337. "Possession of unregistered silencer or of bomb or similar device prima facie evidence of unlawful purpose". "Possession of a silencer" that is not registered under federal law or of a bomb or similar device charged or filled with one or more explosives "is prima facie evidence of a purpose to use the same to commit an offense".
Bye-Bye

Did you read what you posted? Legally buy a suppressor and don't use it to commit a felony .... Lots of people in Montana own NFA items and are in no risk of going to a state prison in Montana.

Acquire an unregistered suppressor or use it for a felony and pay the price like you would with any other firearm used for a criminal purpose.

quote:

"Possession of a silencer" that is not registered under federal law or of a bomb or similar device charged or filled with one or more explosives "is prima facie evidence of a purpose to use the same to commit an offense".

Sid read this.
It says "POSSESSION OF AN UNREGISTERED SILENCER ETC ETC IS PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE OF A PURPOSE TO USE THE SAME TO COMMIT AN OFFENSE"
It's the possession that is the crime!
Read this. Having it in possession is "INTENT" to commit the offense!! IT ain't right or wrong, it's LAW. (In my opinion it is wrong by the way but it is STILL the LAW).

(2) A person convicted of the "OFFENSE OF POSSESSION OF A SILENCER" is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for a term of not "LESS" than 5 years or more than 30 years or a fine of not LESS than $1,000 or more than $20,000 or by both such fine and imprisonment. It doesn't mention shooting the damn thing, it's POSSESSION in and of itself.'

Google Montana law and put in those numbers if ya care or just use the damn thing and go to prison I could care less. Don't want a silencer, have never wanted a silencer. Have no use for a silencer. And for damn sure I'm not going to start registering things like silencers with the Feds and starting that paper trail for em but if you chose to do so by all means. Why do guys like shopping gun shows?...NO PAPER TRAIL!! DUH??
Sid what I posted was the Montana law on possession of an unregistered silencer and it is not ambiguous! It's illegal with a minimum sentence of 5 years, read it, and it's for simple POSSESSION of it, you don't even have to shoot it.
I know guys with proper permits that have machine guns, good for them. with proper PERMITS you can have a silencer in Mt good for you. But you get stopped in Montana with an unregistered silencer and you can explain all the way to jail about how they are interpreting the Federal law wrong but your going to prison! MINIMUM sentence of 5 years. STATE LAW!!

Now again and for the last time I apologize for hijacking this thread on reduced .223 loads. Anyone that thinks those laws I posted are wrong by all means, ignore em! Grab your unregistered silencer and come to Montana . You gonna believe what the fella selling silencers and a silencer fan say, or are you gonna believe your lying eyes???

Now and finally!!
What were we saying about reduced loads in the .223??

I created a thread just for you here; http://forums.accuratereloadin...3811043/m/1571084701 . Post your rants there and you will not have to keep apologizing in this thread.

I bet you are hoping that no one will notice that you have backpedaled from the post in which you foolishly claimed " illegal if you live in the states" to a rant about unregistered silencers.

Everyone in this thread probably knows by now that registered silencers are legal in the USA. I'm fairly certain that everyone here also will assume that a person talking about silencer use and ownership is talking about legally registered silencers. If they are unsure, then they should be polite enough to ask or do research. But not you. You were so against the idea of silencer use that you had to make up a fact and try to pass it off as the truth instead of the lie that it so obviously was.

It is not that we have a problem believing the law as you copied it from the MT Gov website, anyone who looks at it can see that MT law bans unregistered silencers. It is that we do not believe you when you claimed that the law makes all silencers illegal. This is not a subtle difference.

Accusing anyone of owning an unregistered silencer or suggesting that they will get free room and board (prison) for bringing one into Montana is very rude. You should assume they are obeying the law unless you have evidence to the contrary. It is the least anyone should expect here. Please make an effort to be just a little bit polite.

Ranb

I'm pretty short on Powder, I do have 4 1 Lb containers of Blue Dot, so I will put it to good use. I've used it before and I am pretty comfortable with it. BTW, I have used Blue Dot with my 20 calibers without any issue (20 Tact and 20 VT). I am not recommending anything to anyone, since all rifles are different, but they worked for me.

Straddling the two tangents of this thread - I use Blue Dot in 223, but do so very conservatively. Pressures spike FAST if you get adventurous, which is contrary to the idea of reduced loads in the first place.

Edited to add: I usually shoot moly bullets, which levels out the pressure spike somewhat, reduces friction and in this case, INcreases velocity. Works great in my 17 Rem too.

AND I often run them through a lawfully acquired and possessed suppressor, in Montana. When I came here in 1998, suppressors were illegal in MT, as were pistol-caliber machineguns. I had to leave my suppressors in a safety deposit box in another state until the sales were approved. Both bans are throwbacks to Depression-era strikes and union issues. Gov Racicot repealed both in April, 98. I rarely shoot pests locally without a suppressor, just out of courtesy and to avoid spooking livestock. The landowners think this is wonderful and pass the word to their neighbors about it, gaining me more access to more fields!

Blue Dot and mufflers make just about the best gopher rigs one can imagine!

Mark

Thanks for the ballistic chart on the light load. The results in your post are about the same thing I get in real life. It's a good short range load, and accurate.

I use Federal 205 primers for my SR4759 loads.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Seafire2

I picked up some powder that was unopened at a yard sale and one of the cans was Blue Dot. I'm anxious to start mucking around with some loads that you have developed here on the board. What other faster burning powders have you experimented with in the .223????

Thanks for sharing the results of your research. I do appreciate your work.

Thanks...

SR 4759, both 4198s, RL 7, 2400. both 4227s...

55 grain bullets at 2400 fps, when zeroed about 1 inch high at 100 yds, has been able to hit targets as small as golf balls and empty shotgun hulls at 200 yds...

although we all like longer shots, and higher velocities, I am seeing this as perfect for sage rats at 200 yds or less... which takes in about 90% of all the shots I normally ever take at them...

Dang, I think montdoug would argue with a wall.

Carry on..

quote:

Originally posted by jkelly295:
Dang, I think montdoug would argue with a wall.

Carry on..

Mr Kelly,

see you have only 65 posts here even if a member from 2005...

a lot of debate goes on within these pages...

but it still doesn't mean those that differ are divided into bad guys and good guys..

Montdoug is a first rate gentleman...

I'd rather surround myself to folks who are committed to their opinions than to be around wishy washy types...

Doug and I differ opinions on this subject, but I'd be more than proud to share a varmint field and a campfire with him, in either Montana or my home state of Oregon...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

Originally posted by jkelly295:
Dang, I think montdoug would argue with a wall.

Carry on..

Mr Kelly,

see you have only 65 posts here even if a member from 2005...

a lot of debate goes on within these pages...

but it still doesn't mean those that differ are divided into bad guys and good guys..

Montdoug is a first rate gentleman...

I'd rather surround myself to folks who are committed to their opinions than to be around wishy washy types...

Doug and I differ opinions on this subject, but I'd be more than proud to share a varmint field and a campfire with him, in either Montana or my home state of Oregon...

Doug is a fine fellow to be sure, kind and helpful as any man I have had the pleasure to know. Can.'t wait to meet the SOB this spring.
regards Greg

Get yourself a copy of Lee's SHOOTER program.
I have an 1850 fps load for a 223 and a .22 Hornet:
223 55grain bullet=5.6 grains of UNIQUE
.22 Hornet 45 or 55=4.1 grains of UNIQUE

There is no telling how many squirls and ground hog we have killed over the last 10 years.

Predator Extreme magazine (www.predatorextreme.com)just published a very well written article on this very subject in the last 3-4 months. Look them up online-lots of very good current info.

I used to plink a lot of pigeons and starlings around our dairy feedlots, silos and old barns with CCI shortHP's out of a very accurate rem 581. When I got my first .223(Model 7) I thought it would be neat to make some similar "plinking" rounds for it. I had a can of Unique and some 45gr Sierra Hornet sp bullets and I tried 4.0 gr Unique with a CCI 200 and that 45 gr bullet. I got 1400fps and one-hole 50yd accuracy on the first try! Sounds just a little louder than a 22LR, but not as loud as a 22MAG. I also found that just about any 45 or 50 grain bullet would work just as well. Since then, of course, the .17 HMR has stolen the close-up accuracy show. However, I did make a lot of 50 to 75 yd "peeper" shots where not much more than a beak was showing over the roof!

Correction- Those were CCI 400 primers instead of the 200 that I cited in my previous post.

chuck, you can edit and change it. roger